Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: ThatGuy on July 17, 2017, 12:48:31 pm
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Hi everyone. I was compelled to sign up after reading this...
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Zenan_Bridge_(Defense_in_Lavos_Timeline).html
Which is a perfectly good explanation. But I always imagined something different so I wanted to share.
It's entirely possible that Zenan Bridge wasn't held. Remember that Magus, in the Lavos Timeline, wasn't interrupted when he summoned Lavos. As we see later, in 12000BC, his plan to destroy Lavos doesn't work. There's no reason to think it'd go any different in 600AD.
Also remember that when Magus disappeared, his army scattered.
So, it's possible that in the original Lavos Timeline, they did break through Zenan bridge, Magus summoned Lavos, failed to defeat him, and disappeared from the world forever, and his army scattered just the same as it does in the Keystone Timeline. The only difference being, the Mystics were closer to winning.
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Now, the real question is- why did the war with Guardia coincide with Magus's summoning Lavos?
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That's a good question, but remember Magus wasn't alone. Ozzie, Slash and Flea were also waging war, with or without him*, and he just used the opportunity to do his thing without anyone bothering him. So I guess it wasn't the war coinciding with the Lavos' summoning, but the other way around.
*I imagine there's a timeline somewhere where Janus doesn't end up in 600AD, but I guess it's irrelevant to the Mystics vs Humans war, its roots coming from way before that.
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See, I always figured the war was some kind of distraction. Or some kind of excuse to build up his fortress and power and whatever exactly he needed to summon Lavos. It's all speculation, but you could easily imagine a backstory where he has a bunch of requirements, basically requiring him to amass power to fulfill them, and he doesn't care if alongside there's a war or whatever.
Regarding Ozzie, Slash, Flea, waging war along side him..? Seems like their loyalty was tentative at best. It's pretty easy to imagine them, once Magus disappears, following suit, thus abandoning the war effort.
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Your information is very good.
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:?
Just ... nothing at me think already...
but it was plot...
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There's an important line from Ozzie's Fort that was lost in translation, in which Magus states that he only led the Mystics to gain power.
and yes, in the Lavos timeline, Magus successfully summons Lavos, but is defeated in battle.
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Awwww, man, come on translators! I know you weren't confusing donkeys and gorillas by the 90s, but still...
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I respect Ted Woolsey's work, but there are a few points in the game where he drops the ball, probably due to being rushed.
the other one I can think of is Spekkio's line about how only "wizards" were allowed to use magic after the fall of Zeal. it's supposed to refer to Mystics.
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Mystics..?
They called themselves enlightened ones, the mystics were Magus's monster-enemy-guys... Am I missing something?
Wait, what's the exact line?
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I think in the DS version he says fiends. I'm not 100% on that though.
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Mystics..?
They called themselves enlightened ones, the mystics were Magus's monster-enemy-guys... Am I missing something?
Wait, what's the exact line?
the people of Zeal were the enlightened ones. the mystics are an intelligent race of creatures that can use magic. the mystics are best known for going to war with humans under Magus' leadership, but they're also in 12000 bc, employed as guards on Mt Woe, and in the ruined future.
the line means that after the catastrophic fall of Zeal, humans abandoned and/or were barred from using magic, henceforth only mystics were magic-users.
I'd have to dig through the script dump to quote it, but I'm certain of this.
I think in the DS version he says fiends. I'm not 100% on that though.
Ted Woolsey translated them as Mystics, the DS translation calls them fiends. that means that they recognized and fixed the 'wizards' error.
according to https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Mystics.html#Japanese_Equivalent the Mystics were originally known as mazoku or 'demon race'. the first kanji can mean 'demon', but it can also refer to a magical or supernatural being. the second kanji means 'tribe'.
Ted Woolsey has his strengths and weaknesses. I think his greatest strength was in coming up with names. 'Mystic' really captures the sense of magic and the supernatural, while not condemning them as evil the way 'demon' or 'fiend' does. there are other examples from other games: in ff6, he translated 'phantom beasts' as 'espers', which again fits really well.
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Hi everyone. I was compelled to sign up after reading this...
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Zenan_Bridge_(Defense_in_Lavos_Timeline).html
Which is a perfectly good explanation. But I always imagined something different so I wanted to share.
It's entirely possible that Zenan Bridge wasn't held. Remember that Magus, in the Lavos Timeline, wasn't interrupted when he summoned Lavos. As we see later, in 12000BC, his plan to destroy Lavos doesn't work. There's no reason to think it'd go any different in 600AD.
Also remember that when Magus disappeared, his army scattered.
So, it's possible that in the original Lavos Timeline, they did break through Zenan bridge, Magus summoned Lavos, failed to defeat him, and disappeared from the world forever, and his army scattered just the same as it does in the Keystone Timeline. The only difference being, the Mystics were closer to winning.
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Now, the real question is- why did the war with Guardia coincide with Magus's summoning Lavos?
The way time travel works, the only true moment that the timeline existed where Magus summoned Lavos unchecked was in a blip of a timeline as the timeline surrounding Nadia/Marle unraveled and re-weaved itself. It was never a strong timeline, so there being no defense of Zenan Bridge is ridiculous. Only Nadia's involvement changes. They still had designs on the Queen and causing a schism in the human Kingdoms. Therefore, most assuredly, the Queens disappearance was noticed, the fake recognized immediately for suddenly acting different, Nadia didn't play the part, but the offensive against the Mystics would have still been in effect, thus causing a rout as the enemy retreated from the Kingdom of Humans as a diversionary tactic to the main show. Destroy the bridge, cease them from following and they're left scratching their heads, whether the real Queen is found or not.
However, the elements of fate and destiny were stronger than the blip of a timeline could ever be and Chrono and Lucca and Glenn were always unavoidable essences, causing the strong timeline to weave itself over and around and destroy the usurping timeline, for certainly Glenn still had history with Magus and between these checks and balances that keep reality together bouncing off each other and calling each other, There most certainly always was a Zenan Bridge Defense with or without, but the with is stronger was before, during and after the blip.
Decent theory, though. Hard to think these things through when you think you're on to something.
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I don't think you understand.
The original timeline, aka the Lavos timeline, was what was there before Crono and co. started time travelling. In it, Lavos destroys the world. In it, Nadia was found by whoever (not Crono and co.). In it, Marle was never mistaken for Leene.
And... in it...
Crono and co. never defended Zenan bridge!
So, assuming that without Crono and co. the Mystics would have taken the bridge (which is not a wild assumption at all, in fact, it seems almost certain), the original timeline would have seen the Mystics taking the bridge.
When dealing with the original aka Lavos timeline... time travel is irrelevant. Because in it, there was no time travel.
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I just wanted to put out there that I preferred Mystics too. Fiends just has a more negative connotation to it, IMO. Makes me think of prisoners and troublemakers. LOL
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So? How it at like at 1000 ad then? :oops:
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I don't think you understand.
The original timeline, aka the Lavos timeline, was what was there before Crono and co. started time travelling. In it, Lavos destroys the world. In it, Nadia was found by whoever (not Crono and co.). In it, Marle was never mistaken for Leene.
And... in it...
Crono and co. never defended Zenan bridge!
So, assuming that without Crono and co. the Mystics would have taken the bridge (which is not a wild assumption at all, in fact, it seems almost certain), the original timeline would have seen the Mystics taking the bridge.
When dealing with the original aka Lavos timeline... time travel is irrelevant. Because in it, there was no time travel.
In the original timeline, Chrono and Co. defended the bridge before they went back in time to defend the bridge.
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I don't think you understand.
The original timeline, aka the Lavos timeline, was what was there before Crono and co. started time travelling. In it, Lavos destroys the world. In it, Nadia was found by whoever (not Crono and co.). In it, Marle was never mistaken for Leene.
And... in it...
Crono and co. never defended Zenan bridge!
So, assuming that without Crono and co. the Mystics would have taken the bridge (which is not a wild assumption at all, in fact, it seems almost certain), the original timeline would have seen the Mystics taking the bridge.
When dealing with the original aka Lavos timeline... time travel is irrelevant. Because in it, there was no time travel.
In the original timeline, Chrono and Co. defended the bridge before they went back in time to defend the bridge.
No.
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[Post removed by admin]
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This is a reminder for all users that we do have a Charter (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Compendium:About.html#III._Code_of_Conduct) with a Code of Conduct. Please be courteous to one another and respectful.
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This is a reminder for all users that we do have a Charter (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Compendium:About.html#III._Code_of_Conduct) with a Code of Conduct. Please be courteous to one another and respectful.
Fuck you and fuck your piece of shit life. I'm not going to bother to sit here and explain myself or ask for understanding from a spoiled ass piece of shit admin like you.
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This is a reminder for all users that we do have a Charter (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Compendium:About.html#III._Code_of_Conduct) with a Code of Conduct. Please be courteous to one another and respectful.
Your code of conduct doesn't cover; conveniently; what was done to me. And, I doubt you care, but many others do, how I've gone throughout my past ten years on the internet actually having complaints that administrators like yourself should have addressed and didn't. I do take personal umbrage against this as you administrate me because you view me to be 'easy', instead of actually doing your job.
You're a piece of shit and a waste of flesh and I'm going to be laughing as the things that 'don't exist' cause you pain for this.
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I'll repeat it: ThatGuy is a fucking moron. I told him to shut his fucking stupid mouth because he is wrong. As a place that discusses time travel and alternate reality as THEORY, I provided proof as a philosopher as my thesis. He contributed nothing and tried to shut me down. How is that BULLSHIT acceptable and my response not?
Note that I'm not crying, I'm just making it easier for your worthless ass to ban me and get it done with.
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But, I want whoever will view this between now and when you VIOLATE me by removing the evidence to view it. To know what went down here, for what it is worth.
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You have done nothing to provide a safe place for people to communicate here. You have done nothing to actually help give people a place where they can rationally and reasonable come together and you expect me to respect you and the bullshit rules you choose when and where to enforce. I refuse. You aren't worth respecting. You will regret this.
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I refuse to be your example, your whipping boy. I refuse to just lay down and die as you do this to me. I provided to eternity. I spoke with truth about a matter of time and space, my expertise. I gave quality material befitting this place and what it was created for. I have not done, as others have done; as ThatGuy has done; as you have done; and tore apart what others loved of this place.
I refuse to let you not be haunted by this encounter. You just over-stepped and miscalculated on an epic proportion.
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I'm not sure what your problem is. ThatGuy gave their theory, you rebutted, they disagreed on the grounds that you may have misunderstood their theory in the first place. I'm inclined to agree with them. The commonly accepted theory of timelines in Chrono Trigger is that time traveling to the past creates a branching timeline. The "original" timeline ThatGuy is talking about, the one where Lavos eventually destroys the world, has no time travellers appearing (Crono and co. are still perceived to disappear from the point of view of anyone else), and thus Crono cannot possibly defend in the bridge in this timeline. If you have an alternate theory of time travel for the game, you should point that out first to avoid any misunderstandings.
As for everything else, I'm just doing my job as an admin. Your attitude is causing a disruption for the community. I'm not sure what was done to you. No one called you "a fucking idiot". If you have a grudge against any admins or users from when you were here before under your previous username, I suggest you drop it. That was years ago, and I certainly don't remember any of it.
If you think me or another user is breaking the rules, please, point it out to me. PM me if you want. We'll talk it out and work through it.
Keep this up though, and I will remove you.
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all this over a simple misunderstanding of time travel. :roll:
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What I was thinking too, xcalibur. Thank you Kodokami for taking care of the drama. There's no reason to talk to other people like that!
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What I was thinking too, xcalibur. Thank you Kodokami for taking care of the drama. There's no reason to talk to other people like that!
Good points. Ah... yeah...
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I still think it's funny how that guy blew up over being told that he's wrong. I can just picture the steam coming out of his ears, sounding like a factory whistle in those old school cartoons.
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Oy vey. I missed this the first time around.
This kind of stuff is just frustrating. It just sours the experience for everyone. The fact that there was a flurry of back-to-back responses clearly shows a disregard for any normal decency.
I could say more, but I'll stop there.
I do hope that he stuck around and can have a more positive experience without such issues in the future.
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If I can give my own insight on the matter, this is all assuming there was a battle at Zenan Bridge during the original timeline.
Remember, NPC's state during the time Queen Leene was kidnapped that Magus's army destroyed the bridge. Unless there was some unheard plans of staging a naval assault, that's quite counterproductive to cut-off access to Guardia if you plan to finish it off. So then why destroy the bridge and stage an assault after its repaired instead of just plan the assault in the first place?
My guess? The Mystics/Fiends were riled up since people had all begun talking about the Hero. If you consider that timeline changes due to Crono, Lucca, and Marle's first visit to 600AD made it possible for Tata to aquire the Hero's Medal, and this becoming well spread news, then it would also made an impact among the Mystics/Fiends. Perhaps in the original timeline, with Frog keeping the Hero's Medal and thus no one making a fuzz about a Hero, then the Mystics/Fiends weren't as eager, and figured Magus would just take care of things with whattever he's doing at this castle.
But with the Hero, the Mystics/Fiends now think that perhaps the humans can now do something, and perhaps Magus may not have the time. So perhaps they think it might be best to just crush the humans right there and then. Thus, the assault on Zenan Bridge in the changed timeline.
That's my theory, at least.
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I never removed him, just that one post of his. He's welcome to come back so long as he keeps discussions civilized. There was no need to blow up over something as simple as video game theories.
Acacia Sgt, that's a pretty good theory. Frog wouldn't have been as vocal about the Hero's Medal in the original timeline as Tata is from the player's point of view, so I can definitely imagine word of it traveling and alerting the Mystics and possibly putting them on edge.
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Yeah I forgot about this thread. LOL I remember reading his posts wondering what the hell his problem was. There's no reason to be like that, EVER.
That being said, I also like your theory Acacia Sgt. I think that's the best theory on it so far!
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In both the original and the new timelines, Queen Leene was kidnapped on Frog's watch. So I think he would have gone into self-exile either way. Whether Tata subsequently found the Hero's Medal or not is anyone's guess...
• If so, events at the bridge would have probably played out much the same way Crono saw them: the knights lost a bunch of men protecting Tata, which severely weakened their position and allowed the King to be wounded, which was a further blow to the troops' morale.
• If not, the knights probably held their own. Not only did they not lose all those men, the King's continued presence would have kept morale high. Also, with the King remaining in the field, the Chef's attention wasn't divided and he could have kept the troops supplied.
But whether he was successful or not, maybe Ozzie's orders weren't to invade Guardia? Maybe he was simply sent to destroy the bridge again, to keep Guardia from interfering with Magus's plans to summon Lavos.
If that's true, Guardia wasn't actually in danger even if the knights failed to hold the bridge, since Magus had no further need for the war at that point. He was just buying himself some breathing room.
Note that San Dorino was left completely unharmed, despite lying directly in Ozzie's path. Ozzie would have been on board with this delaying plan, since he thought Lavos was to be some kind of superweapon to use against Guardia and there would be no need to put his men in any more danger with a direct invasion.
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But there is a line in the game (a kid at the Millennial Fair) that says: "There was a big war hundreds of years ago against the Fiendlord's armies. My mom said if we'd lost, we wouldn't be having a fair like this today!"
So to me that says that Magus did try to destroy Guardia. Thoughts?
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That's the assumption the humans make, but they don't know the whole truth about the war. It's never spelled out exactly how the war benefited him, but it was clearly just a part of Magus's plan for revenge against Lavos, which was doomed to fail regardless.
Ozzie would have definitely wiped out Guardia if it were up to him, but he deferred to Magus. Magus didn't really care either way, but told Ozzie what he wanted to hear in order to gain his support.
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Hmmmmm.... I never thought of it that way!!
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But whether he was successful or not, maybe Ozzie's orders weren't to invade Guardia? Maybe he was simply sent to destroy the bridge again, to keep Guardia from interfering with Magus's plans to summon Lavos.
If that's true, Guardia wasn't actually in danger even if the knights failed to hold the bridge, since Magus had no further need for the war at that point. He was just buying himself some breathing room.
Considering the way to Magus's Castle is sealed in a way only the Masamune can brute force open it (since I'd think the Mystics can do it just fine; unless there are ships and naval engagements and stuff we just never hear of), I doubt they'd destroy the bridge again if it was to avoid Guardia from interfering. Unless it was to keep the Hero stranded in North Zenan so he can't go and pick up the Masamune, but that brings back to my thought the attack only happened because of the Hero.
Note that San Dorino was left completely unharmed, despite lying directly in Ozzie's path. Ozzie would have been on board with this delaying plan, since he thought Lavos was to be some kind of superweapon to use against Guardia and there would be no need to put his men in any more danger with a direct invasion.
It's posible San Dorino was not a high priority target, if the goal was Guardia. Guardia is the biggest threat, so why bother with San Dorino? The same could be said for Porre, or Choras. Guardia always seemed to be the Mystic's first priority, since it was the strongest human nation/settlement/group.
It's possible that whatever troops San Dorino had were already dealt with. I think dialogue states Guardia was beaten "in the front-lines" before retreating to the bridge. At least, the Retranslation has that, don't know if the DS script mentions it. So depende was that, it might've removed San Dorino as a threat, and thus, its destruction can be saved for later, when all other threats are done with.
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Considering the way to Magus's Castle is sealed in a way only the Masamune can brute force open it (since I'd think the Mystics can do it just fine; unless there are ships and naval engagements and stuff we just never hear of), I doubt they'd destroy the bridge again if it was to avoid Guardia from interfering. Unless it was to keep the Hero stranded in North Zenan so he can't go and pick up the Masamune, but that brings back to my thought the attack only happened because of the Hero.
We don't know that the Masamune is the only way in. It doesn't prove anything, but consider that there's a dead human inside the Magic Cave. It's likely he was simply an escapee from Magus's dungeons and entered the cave from the unwalled side, but it's also possible he was a spy and figured out how to open the wall.
Besides, even without the Masamune or knowing the Mystics' secret method, what's to stop an army of soldiers from just beating the wall down with mining picks? Or tunneling around it, if the wall itself is magically impervious. Although I suspect Guardia simply didn't know about the Magic Cave (despite a couple of NPCs mentioning it), otherwise they would have sealed it up or left it guarded.
Regardless, just leaving it to chance that Guardia won't find a way through doesn't seem like Magus's style to me.
It's posible San Dorino was not a high priority target, if the goal was Guardia. Guardia is the biggest threat, so why bother with San Dorino? The same could be said for Porre, or Choras. Guardia always seemed to be the Mystic's first priority, since it was the strongest human nation/settlement/group.
It's possible that whatever troops San Dorino had were already dealt with. I think dialogue states Guardia was beaten "in the front-lines" before retreating to the bridge. At least, the Retranslation has that, don't know if the DS script mentions it. So depende was that, it might've removed San Dorino as a threat, and thus, its destruction can be saved for later, when all other threats are done with.
Why not bother with a defenseless town (whether you've already beaten its defenders, or there were none to begin with), if it's right in your path and your goal is extermination? Porre and Choras were out of the way, but Ozzie could have easily torched San Dorino as he passed by. To me it seems like he avoided the place on purpose, not because it was too much trouble to deal with, but because he trusted that Lavos would mop up later.
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Woooow, I missed some shit, didn't I?
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Woooow, I missed some shit, didn't I?
I laughed out loud reading this.