Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: idiotekque on May 22, 2013, 04:09:24 am
-
Hey everyone, long time Chrono fan here who stumbled upon the site while looking for something.
A long time ago I remember a site dedicated to a project to completely remake Chrono Cross with Chrono Trigger graphics. As far as I remember, it added nothing to the story, just mirrored the original PSX version with a SNES style version. When I came across it, there were screenshots and whatnot, but it was still totally in the making and didn't have any playable content yet, I don't think.
I've looked around, and I can't find it. Kind of a depressing sign, in light of shutdowns like Chrono Resurrection and Crimson Echoes... I'm hoping this Chrono Chross fan remake didn't get the axe as well.
If anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd appreciate any information! In the meantime, I really have to try some of these fan made games you have here, some of them look excellent. :)
-
Maybe you're thinking of Chrono Master (http://chronomaster.sourceforge.net)? (Also available, with explanation, at the Radical Dreamers translation's homepage (http://radicaldreamers.sourceforge.net)). That project didn't get anywhere. As I recall, there was even some confusion at their development forums over just what form the program would take, whether it was an engine clone or an editor. This was before Temporal Flux (first released in 2004).
-
Hm... that doesn't sound familiar at all. I don't think what I'm thinking of was that much of just an idea, since it was in development when I was looking into it, had screenshots (including CT style sprites of CC characters), etc.
-
How long ago was "long ago"? How much "in development" was it? Did you actually look at the links I gave? They have screenshots, or more likely, mock-ups. Can you see those?
-
New to the forum, the links (almost) look like regular text until you scroll over them. Didn't know that, or I'm just up too late.
That could have been what I'm thinking of, after looking at that. The site doesn't look familiar at all, but the one screen shot with Kid and Serge's sprite in it does. Shame it never took off. :c
-
A while back someone (don't remember who) had designed Chrono Cross' battle system in SNES graphics and integrated Chrono Trigger-style Chrono Cross graphics into a little showcase. There were screenshots and there was a video somewhere of the concept.
Edit: Here's a few RD videos, but it isn't what I was referring to... [youtube]xvjeQyFpOzs[/youtube]
[youtube]2FFZlV2HL4s[/youtube]
-
It's a shame... I guess there just aren't enough Chrono Cross afficianados vs. Chrono Trigger ones to get such a big undertaking going and finishing it. :(
-
Well, that and the fact that fan projects of that sort have a tendency to get C&D letters from Square Enix.
-
Yeah, that too... They always get so much attention, that's the thing. Things need to stay on the DL. >.>
-
Okay... So I'm pretty sure the video I'm thinking of was made by "Bob Wilson" - Bob Wilson goes by a different username here on Compendium (well, assuming he's still at the Compendium) but I can't remember who he is. Bob Wilson is his username on another website.
Darn it! This is going to bug me until I find it. It's REALLY well done and showed a lot of potential. It was crazy exciting to see.
-
No characters from Cross, but this might be what you're thinking of. It's unlisted and doesn't have any hints of what it is in its description or name, so it can only be found if you have a link to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0WbG5soJ0U
It was a ROM hack, with the battle system done through event scripting. I think he stopped work on it a while ago.
-
That's just awesome.
-
That's it, Vehek! Thanks for finding that. I had spent about 30 minutes or more trying to find it. It's been a few years since I'd seen it... Awesomesauce. Pure awesomesauce.
-
Wow. That video really is dripping with "awesomesauce." If only it were playable!
-
As fun *cough* as ogling dead projects is, how about any active/completed ones? What are some of the best playable fanmades?
-
The best were Prophet's Guile and Crimson Echoes. To my understanding, the former was completed for realsies, while the later got a C&D when it was at somewhere like 98% (essentially, everything but a little bug testing). Alas, both games were removed because of the aforementioned crackdown by Square Enix. Which is a shame, really, because those games would have helped renew interest in Chrono Trigger, and would have in turn improved sales of CT DS. Alas, it seems that the business model of large organizations is "Hulk smash!"
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if in some dark corner of the interwebs you could still find copies of those two games.
-
Err, theoretically speaking, which "dark corners" might one look in to find these games? Theoretically, of course.
-
Google illuminates all corners of the Internet, even the most darksome and scurrilous.
(Seriously, any link posted here could be used as an excuse for another wave of Squeenix Attack Lawyers...)
-
(Seriously, any link posted here could be used as an excuse for another wave of Squeenix Attack Lawyers...)
Haha! And knowing how reporters function... http://roflplanet.com/pictures/747.jpg
.... that should be an interesting headline the next morning.
"Square Enix Sells Products to Loyal Consumers, Attacks Them and Burns Their Homes "
-
Flames of Eternity may be worth a look, even if it is a blatant theft of Crimson Echoes. A group took the Crimson Echoes alpha, fixed it up, then set about making changes to the plot. As it's gone on it's become less and less like Crimson Echoes. It's still a bastard, though - they don't even give credit to anyone that built Crimson Echoes. Granted, it's pretty polished.
-
The best were Prophet's Guile and Crimson Echoes. To my understanding, the former was completed for realsies, while the later got a C&D when it was at somewhere like 98% (essentially, everything but a little bug testing). Alas, both games were removed because of the aforementioned crackdown by Square Enix. Which is a shame, really, because those games would have helped renew interest in Chrono Trigger, and would have in turn improved sales of CT DS. Alas, it seems that the business model of large organizations is "Hulk smash!"
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if in some dark corner of the interwebs you could still find copies of those two games.
Prophet's Guile and I think Flames of Eternity can be found on vizzed.com.
-
Flames of Eternity may be worth a look, even if it is a blatant theft of Crimson Echoes.
I don't necessarily think it's a blatant theft. I kinda think of it as this sort of scenario:
CE creators put great efforts to create a product and intend to distribute it. SE appears with a gun in hand, threatens them to toss it in a bin and go about their lives safely. CE creators have no choice but to throw away what they worked so hard on. Now, the product (here I'm gonna use the example of a "computer gadget") is in a bin, with nobody bothering to take a look. Some blokes did, though, and said, "Hey, we could recycle that!" They then decided to take the gadget and hack it to make it workable for them. Then, since it's different form the original, they rebranded it as "Flames of Eternity".
One man's (regretful) trash is another man's treasure, aye? I know because I'd do the same in different circumstances and different stuff (heck, even now I've got someone else's scroll-mouse that barely works, tucked away somewhere in a box until I can find a recyclable use for it). :) Some things are just too precious to be forgotten, and a wax candle has more than one use so it doesn't have to stay as a "candle".
As it's gone on it's become less and less like Crimson Echoes. It's still a bastard, though - they don't even give credit to anyone that built Crimson Echoes. Granted, it's pretty polished.
That could also be a boon, or may have been done consciously by the creators of FoE. See, if they give direct credit to the creators of CE, then they'd be risking the original creators' lives. They don't someone else's blood on their hands (despite the blatant risk they're already taking). Besides, the community knows it anyway.
-
That's an interesting way to look at it. At least it's unlike the bashing I used to saw...
-
Hey Tushantin,
I have to respectfully disagree. I can tell you haven't spent much time reading up on the Flames of Eternity (FoE) guys. They have a strong dislike for Zeality and much of the Compendium. Shortly after Crimson Echoes (CE) got the C&D one of them came on here and posted a video about how much they dislike Zeality. It was blatant trolling. It got very little attention from the Compendium, but I didn't forget about it, nor did I brush it under the rug. That's just douche-baggery at it's finest.
That being said, the CE guys had to comply with the C&D because it was their lives on the line. Not yours, not mine, not the FoE guys. If you've played the most recent FoE (I believe it was posted last August, so almost a year ago), it's still not that different than the CE alpha. The differences are few. It's simply a more polished build with some minor differences. It's what CE would have been given a bit more time.
As for referring to CE as a physical computer gadget, that's a rough analogy. We're talking about intellectual property more than we're talking about a physical product (we could go down a rabbit trail and talk about this in reference to Chrono Trigger, as well).
Since you and I are both writers, let's frame the narrative a bit more accurately. Let's say that your Polar Bear Detective video was never finished, and your story was never publicly told. YouTube, for various copywrite reasons (just imagine it for me; I understand that there aren't any copywrite laws being broken in your video), makes you pull it down and forbids you from uploading it anywhere else. Not only this, but all of the online channels you've used to make Polar Bear Detective are also shut down (the forums and graphic sharing sites). If you share it, it's going to cost you potentially millions of rupies and, worst case, jail time.
Now let's say I come in and take the unfinished Polar Bear Detective and change it's name to Polar Escapade Mysteries. Your name is removed from it, as is Licawolf's and all those others involved. Instead, I'm going to slap my name on it, make no reference to the fact that the majority of the work was done by you, and I'm going to release it as a Super Awesome Mikey G production (of course, I wouldn't use the Boo the Gentleman Caller moniker). You have officially faded into obscurity, and I'll be the awesome creator of the product. Shame on you, right?
So as it stands, FoE is a bastard. Plain and simple. It is a bastard in the truest sense. That being said, I've never once said that I wasn't glad they've done so. I was not a beta tester for CE and didn't get to play it for nearly a year after it was leaked; it's really rough around the edges! FoE is so much more polished and is what CE couldn't been. The FoE guys have done a great job and I commend them for their craft. They've spent several years constantly fixing and refining it. That's dedication And it's a great "product!" So good for them, and good for us - because we get to enjoy other people's hard work!
But it doesn't change the fact that they've bashed Zeality and claim the work as their own. I've lurked on that site since it opened and anyone who speaks up about this issue on their site is threatened and/or banned - even if it's just a passing comment. I've never posted for this very reason.
In conclusion, by not giving credit where credit is due, one is taking credit for it entire project. So Chrono99, Mauron, Zeality, and anyone else who worked on CE simply isn't getting the credit they deserve. FoE does not have noble intentions by leaving their names off of everything; they aren't doing it "to protect" those who were at legal risk following the C&D. They aren't Robin Hood and his band of followers, either; at least Robin Hood and his men could admit their theft and directly stand against the Sheriff of Nottingham.
So FoE is not a bad thing. Not bad at all!
(On a side note, I've wondered if that isn't all a ruse to throw us off the scent. Perhaps Giro / RubyDragoon and the others are actually doing FoE for Zeality and the others to ensure that it really is put out there. Who knows?!)
Doesn't change the fact that it's still a bastard, though.
Edited for grammar.
-
Well, thievery or not, I'm glad they did it. The web is full of douchebags, but the important thing is keeping Chrono Trigger alive for all of us true fans that are getting the short end of the stick from Squeenix and their even greater douchebaggery. More than that, we all KNOW FoE is just a revised CE. Whether the FoE creators give credit where it's due... we all know it's CE. The credit is going to Zeality whether the FoE creators give it or not.
Anyways, I found a cool little site with FoE and PG, so I'll have to give those a spin. 8)
-
You'll love them! If you want the full FoE experience, I'd play through multiple versions. A few versions of them (7 maybe?) have the ability to start at different chapters. The newest version (8, I believe) doesn't have that option, but is obviously the most complete.
Enjoy!
-
That reminds me: Why don't ZeaLitY, Agent 12 and Crono'99 and all the others who've worked on this turn CE into an original game? I mean, the only thing that infringes the story is references, sprites, game mechanics, etc. to Chrono Trigger, but the story, ideas, concept, etc. were totally original. Couldn't that be used in a separate project entirely?
I actually encourage this. My memory may deceive me, but I remember how The Lies of Locke Lamora was supposed to be a Final Fantasy VI fan-fiction of Locke Cole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lies_of_Locke_Lamora), but eventually the author decided to turn it into an original story altogether why retaining the primary ideas and concepts. I think the same could be done with CE?
Ah, speaking of which, here's Scott Lynch's own words on the website (http://camorr.com/content/locke-lamora):
Locke Lamora’s character is loosely inspired by Locke Cole from Final Fantasy VI. He is a thief, but prefers to be called a "Treasure Hunter." Lynch said: ‘Locke's first name is a homage to a character in SquareSoft's Final Fantasy VI, also known as Final Fantasy III in the United States. This game had a huge influence on me when I was in my mid-teens; I think it's one of the most brilliant and heartbreaking console roleplaying games ever created, a real work of art.’
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIo5jGCCAAEoGtw.jpg:large)
(http://s1.zerochan.net/Locke.Cole.240.114712.jpg) (http://www.zerochan.net/114712)(http://s1.zerochan.net/Locke.Cole.240.839363.jpg) (http://www.zerochan.net/839363)(http://s1.zerochan.net/Locke.Cole.240.1404552.jpg) (http://www.zerochan.net/1404552)(http://s1.zerochan.net/Final.Fantasy.VI.240.1359222.jpg) (http://www.zerochan.net/1359222)
(http://images.ados.fr/1/jeux-videos/final-fantasy-vi/photo/hd/4505309450/284473647a/final-fantasy-vi-bandana-boomerang-fantasy-big.jpg)
(http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv250/LoveLoki1/Final%20Fantasy%20VI/LockeCole_orangeRedWall.jpg)
....
Sorry, I fan-girled for a moment.
(BTW that first picture is actually Scott Lynch's book art.)
-
I suppose that could be interesting to do, but it may not be that feasible. Considering how tied CE's plot was to CT's, you would also need to recreate all of that into an original work, or at least enough of it for the background info. Well, I can't say I'd know much about such a situation...
-
The procedure in question is sometimes known as "filing off the serial numbers", and no, I don't think it's practical for CE for much the reason that Acacia Sgt just gave. CE isn't just another story in the world of CT, it's a tightly-coupled sequel (unlike CC, which could have its serial numbers filed off fairly easily—all that's needed there is a different backstory for Schala and Belthasar, plus a few selective cuts and renames).
Even if it were practical, the odds are good that the resulting game would be much weaker for it. And a new engine would still be required to avoid the problem of redistributing Squeenix IP.
-
...and then I don't think people would like it very much, lol. Seems like the same reason that hardcore Chrono Trigger fans don't usually care much for Chrono Cross, since it's a sequel... but it's not. I'm one of the few that loves both games, but actually prefers CC.
Nothing wrong with CE living on in the bowels of the interwebs, I guess.
-
Even if it were practical, the odds are good that the resulting game would be much weaker for it. And a new engine would still be required to avoid the problem of redistributing Squeenix IP.
Sure? Because if ZeaLitY and co. don't mind, I'd love to revamp the plot and give it a spin for an original game. :) I think I know some programmers willing to work on a game engine and officially monetize on it. Of course, unlike the FoE team, the Compendium can count on me to give credit to the original creators where it's due (but I can't guarantee revenue if I don't see a dime either).
Of course, I'm still busy planning on a short mobile game currently. So until I can prove that I can make best selling games, the CE creators have plenty of time to think about the offer.
-
I suppose if it's given a try, it can most likely surprise us. If it really were to happen, I'd love to lend a hand if there was something I could help with.
-
I'm a writer, and I'm pretty good with RPG Maker VXA, lol (obviously CE isn't made in that... but yeah). I could help with dialogue at least, though I don't know how much that would be needed.
-
Sorry, I fan-girled for a moment.
fan-girled
fan-girled
fan-girled
...I always thought you were a guy.
-
Sorry, I fan-girled for a moment.
fan-girled
fan-girled
fan-girled
...I always thought you were a guy.
You know, you don't necessarily have to be a girl to 'fangirl' about something. I squee every time I see a well done fanart pic of Schala. :P
-
I suppose if it's given a try, it can most likely surprise us. If it really were to happen, I'd love to lend a hand if there was something I could help with.
Agreed. Even if a CE "reboot" is unlikely, having the community working together on a project again would be wonderful. I'd love to join that as well.
You know, you don't necessarily have to be a girl to 'fangirl' about something. I squee every time I see a well done fanart pic of Schala. :P
Wouldn't that make you and tush fanboys?
-
To be honest, the story's the easy part of a game. It's the art and programming that are the time-suckers, and I feel where production always hangs.
That said, a Chrono-esq game series could probably do well. Now's the time for such a thing: kickstarter's there to get the funding, and consumers are well familiar with getting games through non traditional sources (see Project Zomboid, Terraria, Minecraft, etc).
-
Yeah, it would have to be a Chrono spiritual successor. Keep the time-travel intact, but none of the original resources (or manipulated ones, for that matter) would be usable. But make it have that "Chrono Trigger" look and throw time travel in, and I bet you'd attract some definite attention.
That being said, it wouldn't even have to be based on CE.
-
You know, you don't necessarily have to be a girl to 'fangirl' about something. I squee every time I see a well done fanart pic of Schala. :P
Wouldn't that make you and tush fanboys?
He (or we) actually means "fangirl" as a stereotypically used verb form. XD At least based on its contemporary use. Something screaming in high-pitched voices in excitement, or swooning (God forbid!) or even gawking at pretty pictures, etc. Yeah, I do that a lot too. Kinda fun.
And yes, Manly Man, I'm a Man. :P Maybe not as Manly as you, but still a man.
That being said, it wouldn't even have to be based on CE.
I can make it based on CE and still keep it an original game, despite not being related to Chrono series. ;)
Anywho, here's my rough doodle of the protagonist of ORIGINAL Crimson Echoes (Crono equivalent... probably).
(http://i.imgur.com/QI89l2T.jpg)
-
Eh... story isn't "easy". The only reason Chrono Trigger is so loved is because of an amazing story. The gameplay is great, true, and programming obviously soaked up the most amount of time, but coming at story with the sentiment of it being is easy is kinda... wrong. I haven't played CE or FoE yet, but if they're as amazing as I've heard, the story has to be top notch and have the same brilliance that CT and CC had. I have my doubts how I'm gonna feel about them... but yeah, just thought that should be noted, lol.
-
Having come up with a story or two at some point I can certainly agree with that. It's always when getting to the details. On the other hand, I'm not really that much of a writer so it could be that I just don't have enough experience yet coming up with stories.
-
The way I read Thought's post, story is only "easy" in the sense that writing talent is in greater supply than programming and art. But yeah, I think Chrono Trigger did hit an ingenious balance -- the more I think about it, the more I'm amazed at how the scenario writers were able to establish the world while cutting from one environment to the next so quickly. Hot damn.
The thought of a big community project to create something that captures what made Chrono so magical, while eschewing the IP itself, is incredibly intriguing. I'm not sure it's been done before.* Since the raison d'etre of a fan community is to celebrate a canon, the focus of fan activity naturally gravitates to the already-created world. And the stresses of IP law being what they are, that focus backfires as it dampens the possible rewards.
How would we even start such a thing? And the bigger question -- how to motivate at least a skeleton crew into carrying the project to completion? I would think there'd almost have to be a profit motive in the mix (although the prospect of transferable skills may also suffice). And then the question begs: if there's any kind of money to be had from selling the game, how does the fan community divvy that up among the dozens of members likely to come in and drop out over the years? Not that I'm trying to be a naysayer by any means; it'd simply be fascinating to parse out questions like these.
*Come to think of it, the Suikoden community's approach to Exit Fate (http://indierpgs.com/2010/03/game-review-exit-fate/) may be instructive here. But I have the impression from a few glances at screenshots they may have used Suikoden resources to pad out environments and NPC sprites.
-
It's not easy, but structure and a determined leader of the project who is very active is key. I was a writer for a very big, very ambitious Freelancer mod with a crazy amount of talent working on it, but the mod lead was a police officer of some sort (Italian) and couldn't consistently be around. That (and a few problem people who caused drama) made the project crash and burn.
-
Story is easy because the writer (or team of writers) can come in, get everything done in about 4 to 6 months of hard work, and move on. And even if it's not brilliant, the game can still do well (look at Terraria: not big on story, but quite fun to play). Compare that to art: a single artists can't practically make every bit of it that a game will need, and a team would be working on it for about a year at least (to my understanding), and they can't really start until some basic parameters are set. The game can't generally be practically programmed by a single person anymore (again, to my knowledge), that is where the most people-hours go, and if you get it even slightly wrong, the thing wont run.
The story has several difficult parts (not least of which is keeping it under control, since everyone loves story and wants to add to it), but objectively speaking, fan games tend to have plenty of story and not enough everything else.
Faust, while talents might be able to be drawn from the fan community (and some of the development would be public to that community), I'd think a business model would be the way to go. People are hired or fired from the project and so on. Honestly, if we're just relying on people's largess and free time, it wont get done.
-
Eh... that's a very basic, limited understanding of the story process. You compare Terraria, but that's not a story based game, that's an indie platform/Minecraft type thing. Chrono Trigger is a story based RPG.
You can't just throw a handful of people together and create a cohesive story. Masato Kato wrote the story for CT and CC. Sure, he didn't write every single bit of it, with other writers filling in some side-plots and certain characters and whatnot, but he is directly responsible for the entire story and plot of the Chrono series.
I'm not saying story is harder than art, or programming, or whatever, but it's by no means easier. One could argue that it's harder, because it involves hard work AND imagination, writing talent, etc, but I'm not getting into that.
-
I suppose a balance would need to be reached within the Writing Team then.
-
That would nice, but in execution... not that easy. Even on the mod writing team I was on, different people were writing the lore behind the different factions, and when those factions' lore connected? Like, if they went to war at some time in the factions' histories? Lots of arguing, lots of drama about how things should be. I can only imagine how much worse that would be when you have multiple people trying to create one cohesive plot and story.
Really, like with CT and CC (and likely almost every JRPG ever made), the project would need a lead writer, with a few other writers filling side points that don't directly affect the overarching storyline.
Not that my input means a whole lot, just some words of wisdom from personal experience. :)
-
I wouldn't say it's bad advice. Having a Lead Writer is practically a must, in charge of not only the main aspects of the plot, but also to direct the other writers so their parts can be incorporated not only to the main plot, but with each other when it's applicable. I suppose one of the main problems is that when everybody involved are mostly left to deal with their parts on their own, most often than not they will clash with each other, which is why you need someone to supervise.
-
Okay, so that settles it. If we go for game-development, here's what we need:
1. Game Design Document
A full-fledged (public) document detailing the story and game synopsis, game mechanics, resources required, how it impacts the market and consumers, ports and consoles, business-model, etc. Everything that needs to be done goes here first. Every other volunteer / hired artist and programmer will have to adhere with this, unless the head developers give an OK to something.
The document will give us a general idea of the game itself, as well as help us estimate the amount of time required to finish the project and monetize on the benefits / rewards. In any case, the document will be free to read for certain Compendium members (preferably those with 10 posts and above, and definitely safe from the eyes of Dark Serge and the like) so we can get quality feedback from the community.
2. Game Engine and Consoles
First we'll need to decide on what kind of game it will be. And judging by today's market, I'm strictly against basic RPG the likes of CT. I think we're better off making something better than CC, perhaps something similar to Devil May Cry or even a 3D version of Muramasa: The Demon Blade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSkELtt1TFc), because a lot of game engines have templates for that (including Blender Game Engine). The only difference? We'll have the Levels and Equipment system as CT did, and possibly along with a party of three with additional AI and even Online Play. Why? Because THIS will help us make the biggest splash in the market.
I mean think about it: depending on the genre, we can take advantage of the character-development potentials too. Have you ever seen Guile / Magus fly in-game when you're controlling them? Even if they're levitating, it's not more than 1 inch off the ground. We could theoretically have them float in-air in-game!
But the question is, what are we targeting at? PC industry or Mobile? I think the Mobile industry is gaining momentum currently so making a simpler game for Android, iPhone and Windows Phone -- and Google's Native Client Web-App technologies since Chrome-books are on the rise (http://gigaom.com/2013/05/22/how-google-plans-to-rule-the-computing-world-through-chrome/) -- seems like a sensible idea. But if we decide on the PC market, we'll not only need to port for Windows, Mac and Linux (since Ubuntu is an emerging gaming market), but also for XBox, PS3 and Wii.
Depending on our targets, we'll need to design the game engine, gameplay and interface accordingly. If my current game idea (which I'll be independently working on) goes well, we could even incorporate that battle engine to this one. Story will have to take a side-step here, despite the fact it's important.
3. Business Model and Team Distribution
Now, here we'll do something that's totally unconventional, in light of copyright issue and the past problems faced by the Compendium before.
Firstly, the team will be distributed as efficient -- there will be Head Artists, Programmers, Writers, Developers, Accountants (not the math thing, but those that supervise the project and keep track of community contribution), etc. who will be working full-time, or set hours per week -- with volunteers and community helping the project gain momentum. When a certain Head developer screws up with an art or program, the volunteer can help fix that (and essentially get professional credit for contribution). We can also have a Head Writer divide other Senior Writers in writing different scenarios, then compile the rest into one script. Same goes for Art and other sort.
But what about revenue, you say? I mean, we will get money from sales (we'll need the Accountant / Head Developer to account for that), but there must be a plan to help the senior developers and artist focus on their work full-time / part-time, perhaps paid monthly. For this, we could start a Kickstarter after we have a decent Alpha demo and artwork, or any content, ready to show. That revenue can be distributed monthly as salary after the Senior members of the team have produced enough (and the Senior members are free to outsource work to Junior members if they like). Beyond that, or even alternatively, the team can be self-funded.
But what about the volunteers and junior contributors, you ask? They are getting credit after all, but those who have worked on the game passionately as hard as a senior member without expecting anything in return, shouldn't they get something out of it? True, in that regard, we could pay anything left-over from Kickstarter campaign to the volunteers after long-term accounts are done, and maybe even give minimum royalties from sales (wow, I sound like a greedy corporation director... would I make a perfect Square Enix leader?), and of course they'd have Beta access and promo codes for downloading the game for free... but I have something even better in mind, something that the volunteers, contributors, and even fans in general can benefit from he way Square Enix and other gaming studios never allowed their fans to. And here's where we get totally unconventional:
We release the base game engine programmed, complete with interface design (IF we aren't using Unity and such (http://unity3d.com/)), as OpenSource, licensed by GPL or equivalent. Meaning, our hard work will earn the Seniors with sufficient money, and the fans, contributors and volunteers with agency and our own legacy. The assets can also be free to download (except for some REALLY AWESOME ones) from the website database for use with the engine. The next generation can simply use this agency, improve upon it, and release their own games -- whether original games or a direct not-canon sequel to ours, which we'll justify as "parallel dimension" -- and even sell those games to their liking (by following our pre-requisite guidelines and regulations) and earn their money (and the seniors can gain a percentage royalty from it, perhaps). Those games will also be referred to in the main website.
Why? Because we won't do what SE did to CE. We'll gladly encourage the volunteers to build upon the series we, as fans, work hard to create. We'll get imaginative and make use of every freedom-of-art we have to the best possible result.
Speaking of self-funding, there's another idea: We could use YouTube to generate revenue for the project. Put simply, every asset we create for the game gets recycled for videos. Either Making Of's, simple animations, FMV's, etc. This can also double as a marketing tactic.
In either case, I realize that ZeaLitY is currently unavailable due to hard times, but I'd like him to be a part of the development too.
-
Kickstarter would be the only realistic option. And we would have to have a demo or some kind of demonstration that the project was legit before we could even go to Kickstarter. That means we'd need graphics and some semblance of a story. Maybe even an interactive demo if we want to be above-average.
-
Idiotekque, to put things in perspective, I've been on the writing team for four different fan games over the years. The reason those games never got finished (ah, the curse of fangame projects!) is that the programming barely got started, if even that. Meanwhile, the stories would race to the 80-90% completed stages (to be fair, that excludes exact dialogue). We can debate how good those stories were, but the point being, that's not where projects like this get hung up: it's in the art and programming.
As for funding the project, as you noted, Boo-Man-G, the kickstarter would really need a proof of concept in order to get off the ground. That means a lot of hours have to be invested, first. How to pay for those hours? There are four standard options that I am aware of: get investors (highly unlikely for a fan game), use personal funds (not practical for a fan game), obtain a grant (not sure if there are any for video game development, but I wouldn't be surprised), or do it pro bono until the projects far enough along to turn an income. There's also a possible 5th (I've never heard of this being done, so that's why it's separate), but create a different product to draw funding for this project. That, though, sort of just begs the question.
The pro bono model is the one that is most likely to occur. That is a problem with fan games: lack of payment also creates a lack of responsibility. The solution is actually fairly simple: being a fan would have to be secondary. Desiring to become a professional would be paramount. Get some hungry (metaphorically or literally) college kids (oh good god, I just called them college kids! I'm old) who need to build up a resume. The key is to find people who would treat working on the project as a job, not something to do in their spare time as they feel like it.
Keep in mind, pro bono work doesn't have to go on for ever, just until a kickstarter can push it to a respectable level. Then, a "pre-order" model might be able to push it the rest of the way. I mentioned Project Zomboid: it's been getting pre-orders for a few years, which is directly funding its development and completion. There are established independent game developer models out there: we'd just need to figure out how they do it.
-
Yeah, I get that. Sometimes certain things take off faster and are completed, but that's not always the case. Like the project I was on, the programmers, meshers (by god we had some talented meshers), etc were really driven people and got a crazy amount of work done. We had a fair bit of writers getting stuff done too, but the drama happened almost entirely in the writing and there were massive holdups there, and a lot of people quit the team because of it. I can honestly say that the writing was the "hardest" part of that project, bred the most issues, and made the least amount of progress.
It's different in many cases, and I can understand that with fan projects (especially for such cult classic games like CT) you might have a lot more rabid enthusiasm and imagination in the dev team to write a new story as opposed to serious, consistent programming talent. All I was really saying in the first place is that calling writing the "easy part" isn't accurate at all.
But sorry, we're derailing the topic. I like what I'm reading here. :D
-
So the question would be, what would we want to do (if anything) and what do we individually bring to the table? I'm in agreement with Thought here, pro bono is the only realistic option (he didn't actually say that, but that's the reality of things). Hypothetically, once we got graphical resources, the semblance of a concept, we could create a Kickstarter and ADVERTISE it as a Chrono Trigger spiritual successor.
If anyone has played Radiant Historia on the DS, it was a unique time-traveling RPG that many felt was similar to Chrono Trigger. Having actually played the game, they really weren't that similar... only in regard to the SNES graphics, enemies visible on the map screens, and the time traveling element.
I think time travel plot would be the route we'd want to go yes?
-
Well, if we are to advertise it as a CT Spiritual Successor, it'd definitely has to have time travel. After all, that was a very important aspect of CT's plot.
-
No love for inter-dimensional travel? :P
It could be Chrono Trigger/Cross spiritual successor, lol.
-
I'd say it's better to stick with one, or keep the other in a very minor role.
-
Radiant Historia features both, and pulls it off very well. I was also surprised at how emotionally invested that game made me feel despite its minimalism. If we're looking for inspiration outside of Chrono Trigger, then Radiant Historia is the next best choice.
Also, another similarity RH shares other than time/dimension travel: the plot is centered around averting a bad future. I think this is the way to go--averting some kind of disaster by use of time...
How about a time loop?
-
Yeah, I'd love to see inter-dimensional travel and time travel as well. Incorporating both isn't really going to make things too... busy, if it's done tastefully. I've never played Radiant Historia, but I guess that shows it can be done.
-
I'll admit I haven't seen much of RH to know about using both concepts, but if it's already has been used, I suppose it could be feasible.
Also, another similarity RH shares other than time/dimension travel: the plot is centered around averting a bad future. I think this is the way to go--averting some kind of disaster by use of time...
How about a time loop?
Well, averting a bad future is pretty much a staple when time travel is involved. I suppose spicing it up would be a good way to deter from the norm. Though how could a time loop work here? Would all the range of the time travel have to be within the end points of the loop or would actually involve traveling outside of it?
-
Well, averting a bad future is pretty much a staple when time travel is involved.
...I deserve a facepalm for not realizing that.
Though how could a time loop work here? Would all the range of the time travel have to be within the end points of the loop or would actually involve traveling outside of it?
I was thinking something along the lines of Steins;Gate, where a character, in trying to avert some future event, has no choice but to repeat X amount of time until said event is averted. Kinda like those shows where a character repeats the same day over and over.
Of course, that sort of thing is a bit cliché now. We do need to "spice it up." In Steins;Gate, nearly every negative event fixed by the main character led to some other negative event occuring, which he then had to fix, which created another bad event, etc.
~~~
By the way, something that should be agreed upon: Would this production be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole or specifically to Crimson Echoes?
-
I say let this concept stand on it's own right. Forget Crimson Echoes. Let is just be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole.
What if it dealt with overcoming fate and paradox? It deals with overcoming the fatalistic time travel, in which every attempt to change the timeline only results in creating the reality are trying to avoid?
-
^
Most definitely let it be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series. I also mirror the sentiment of the "overcoming fate" thing. I loved that in CC and thought it was one of the strongest and most interesting themes in the story. Kato kinda went to town on that game as far as creating a psychotic, deeply intricate storyline. I guess it's always smarter to make something that's... understandable and relates to a wide audience, but the depth of RPGs like Chrono Cross has more or less gone out the window in today's generation of RPGs. It's sad.
-
Another concept I can think of is that the catastrophe happens because of the time travel. As in say, traveling to the future triggers it because you left and so you weren't there to stop it, and therefore it happened.
-
Okay, then can I have a moment for shameless self promotion?
Years ago I wrote out the synopsis for a spiritual successor to Chrono Trigger and the entire Chrono Trigger series. It dealt with an entirely new universe (although there were links between this concept and the Chrono series). Eventually, I decided that this concept was simply too interesting (to me) to doom it as a "never happening" Chrono Trigger fan game. Instead, I refashioned it; removing all elements of Chrono Trigger to allow to exist as it's own story.
It starts out as a time traveling adventure, but as the heroes try to change history, they learn that they are only fulfilling the timeline(s) they are trying to avoid. In time they learn the secrets of WHY they were able to time travel (what ultimately led them on this adventure), and are forced to confront conceptions of religion, and more importantly, predestination and fate. Their end-game mission is to ultimately destroy predestination itself, freeing mankind from the chains of fate.
It gets a little trippy in the final act, I admit, so I don't know how popular the concept will be, nor if it would be worth a read to you all.
It follows the formulaic Chrono Trigger storyline, complete with different time era's and characters from each. I have a quick, 7-8 page treatment for the storyline.
-
Haha, I suppose it could be an idea for the concept board. :lol:
-
...we could create a Kickstarter and ADVERTISE it as a Chrono Trigger spiritual successor.
Or Inspired By Chrono Trigger / Cross. We wouldn't want SE up our meat again...
No love for inter-dimensional travel? :P
I'd say it's better to stick with one, or keep the other in a very minor role.
Theoretically, we can have both -- not based on Chrono series, but the actual Quantum theories regarding Time Travel and Parallel Universes. (Someone wanna catch one end of a String Theory? Anyone?)
Well, averting a bad future is pretty much a staple when time travel is involved.
...I deserve a facepalm for not realizing that.
And this is where Crimson Echoes' originality comes in: Time Travelers try to avert a bad future... until they realize that THEY'VE been the villains all along!
Speaking of which, this is exactly where Boo's own concepts can be "merged" with the story-line to make it seem as if the beginning of Crimson Echoes is not exactly a sequel, but an independent story in its own right.
By the way, something that should be agreed upon: Would this production be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole or specifically to Crimson Echoes?
By the way, something that should be agreed upon: Would this production be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole or specifically to Crimson Echoes?
I say let this concept stand on it's own right. Forget Crimson Echoes. Let is just be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole.
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.
I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake... (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbz65v3th01qhnz31o1_500.png))
Here's some more details about the characters:
Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?
Completely off-topic, but I was just amusing myself at one thought. WARNING: TOTALLY NARCISSISTIC MUSING FOLLOWS! Feel free to hate me if you like, because you guys are just fantastic. Nothing can be possible without any of you.
It took Dark Serge / Hellspawns only a moment to destroy CE (http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/chrono-trigger-2-crimson-echoes-now-official.179058758/) and the Chrono Community in its majority.
But it took me only one post to spark interest in the Chrono series (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,10053.msg217349.html#msg217349) and BIG BANG a whole universe of enthusiastic discussions in the Chrono community, which I hope will be rapidly growing now as we continue. And this only goes to show that the Dream of Zeal is still alive.
That sort of makes me an Anti-DarkSerge, huh?
(http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/231/2/8/JUST_AS_PLANNED_by_Kiriska.jpg)
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7446247936/hA6BCAC13/)
-
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.
I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake... (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbz65v3th01qhnz31o1_500.png))
Here's some more details about the characters:
Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?
Well, if we separate from CE, we can have more freedom over what direction to take the story and stuff.
I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.
-
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.
I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake... (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbz65v3th01qhnz31o1_500.png))
Here's some more details about the characters:
Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?
Well, if we separate from CE, we can have more freedom over what direction to take the story and stuff.
I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.
If we're doing cast deviation, will that mean Schala doesn't need to merge wit the equivalent of Lavos and can become a playable character?
(No. Kid doesn't count! >_<)
-
Schala wouldn't need to be a playable character if this is a spiritual successor and nothing else. I say go with a cast that's not limited to the charachtatures of Chrono Trigger people. Start from scratch, right?
-
I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.
That's the tricky part: how can we have a spiritual successor of Chrono series, but removing every reference to CT and still being faithful to CE's story-line?
Keeping with Crimson Echoes' theme -- Ambition, Aspirations and Dreams -- I've played with some ideas before, and here are some I thought was pretty cool:
1) Replace "Frozen Flame" with "Dream Ember" -- a legendary power that can grant any aspirations agency to take off. This can be symbolical to "Passive dreams", such as having a love-life, living in harmony, or to "Active Ambitions" such as desiring to rule the world, or changing the world for the better, to even "Delusions" where everything you dream might simply be a set of hallucinations that you project upon the world, and hence making you more susceptible to sin, deceit and manipulation. Many characters seek this flame, much as they would seek the Fountain of Youth, and much like the ironic twist of the Fountain of Youth it turns out that the Flame is within every character that lives -- including robots that have harnessed Sentience.
2) The Kingdom of Zeal will be revisited, but with a different twist: It's no longer the "Enlightened" who have ascended thanks to Lavos' intervention. Instead, Zeal will simply be an equivalent to "Valhalla" -- a gigantic broken continent and chains of islands in the sky, reigning upon the planet -- where the civilians share the same blood lineage with the Earthbounds. Here, the Earthbounds seem to relate more with the characters than the Valhallans, and the people in the sky would be a reminiscent of Nordic lore / Poetic Edda (think about it: King Zeal is Odin?) We WILL have characters from the Earthbound, perhaps even a female equivalent to Siegfried (which may or may not replace Ayla). But how does this Neo-Zeal fall? Not because they summoned Lavos, but because they waged war against the Morning Star, Loki-equivalent, bringing the War of Ragnarok (which may have been just as cataclysmic as the "Foundation of Zeal" (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9382.0.html)).
3) King Zeal would be the "Captain of the Titanic", who died along with his Kingdom. Except something saved him. And he intends to eradicate whatever it is that destroyed his Kingdom from the Prehistorics itself, so as to sustain his Kingdom's prosperous future (even though the Heroes of Time destroyed that villain before).
4) Most of the other characters from CT would be re-visited, and will be introduced similar to how CT introduced their characters. But of course, there will be changes. Schala can be a playable character if she isn't saved in time; otherwise, she'll witness the horrors of time and obtain the Dream Flame to destroy all of reality. If she is saved, then we'll have a completely new Final Boss.
5) Janus (not Magus) flees the wars of Zeal in order to seek out Schala, and finds himself Time-Hopping. He will be different from Magus, but will display the same level of competence and darkness (or at least he becomes darker as the story progresses). The only way he can save Schala by the end is to change himself into a more faithful fellow. If Schala isn't saved, we have the exact same ending as the ending of CE, where Magus and KZ converse.
6) This time it's not Crono who goes and attempts to save Marle from the Time Portal, it's the other way around: Crono finds himself stumbling through cracks in reality, while Marle goes in to save him.
7) Many ideas for Crono: He may be a simple kid, as in CT and CC (Serge). He could be a thief (RD). He could be a soldier, working for NASA (LOL) or Chronopolis, and volunteers to experiment with time travel. He could be a hermit. He could be Mr Bekkler.
8) Belthasar isn't saved because Crono and co murdered defeated Lavos. Instead, he finds himself alive because KZ changed timeline.
9) So who's the Lavos / Dream Devourer replacement? Well... there's plenty of options. :)
There are a lot more ideas, but these are just off the surface of my mind.
Of course, I had to refer to some of those ideas from Thesaurus.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx6stutnqP1qi94w2o1_400.jpg)
-
And this is why story is so easy. Look, we don't even have a team yet, and the story is already in development!
At this point, we need a professional to step forward to take this on as a professional project. That will be the team lead (at least for now), and they'll have to recruit other professionals. There's really not much point in us discussing the specifics of anything.
Anywho, there are three concepts present in CT that might be useful for such a team to consider for a spiritual successor. Not to design it, but to hone it:
1) Three Act Format. Actually, I like to call CT’s version “Three Quest Format.” There was the first, minor quest (save Marle) that served as a means to introduce some of the main concepts in the game (time travel, changing the future, Magus, and magic), then a second quest, a main one (Stop Magus), a twist (oh noes, Magus wasn't the Big Bad after all), and then third quest (defeat Lavos itself!). Three Act is a familiar structure that served CT well, and I think it would be useful for a spiritual successor.
I suspect one of CC’s problems, and why it isn’t considered the same sort of classic, is that its structure is far more vague. Honestly, I’m not sure if three act, five act, seven point, or some other structure would fit it better.
2) Character Dungeons. CT forced the player to spend time with each character, and during that time, the character’s backstory was provided. We have a few variations on this, but the overall effect was to make every character shine made the fans love them. Robo’s dungeon was the Forgotten Future’s power plant thingy, Frog’s the Cathedral and Magus’ castle, Ayla’s the forest and Reptite Lair, and Magus’ was the first quest, and half the second. And so on.
CC again lacked this. What was Pip’s character dungeon? Funguy’s? They added to the story, a little, but it was quite possible for the player to never encounter them, and so there was no bonding.
3) Hero's Jounrey (see the Campbellian monomyth): Crono meets a mentor (Lucca), heeds the call to adventure (save Marle), crosses a threshold (time travels), meets up with a wide variety of helpers (frog, robo, Ayla, magus), gains a oneness with the universe (dies), defeats evil (aka, Lavos), returns home/recrosses the boundary (ending scene), and discovers that the hero can never return to the old life (Guardia falls).
I feel like CC has a good bit of this, but again is far vaguer. Serge meets a mentor (kid), maybe he heeds a call to adventure somewhere?, crosses a threshold (dimensional travel), doesn’t really meet with a wide variety of helpers (sure, the cast is large, but most of them aren’t necessary in the least, so they aren’t really helpers in the monomyth sense), gains a oneness with the universe (the Frozen Flame), defeats evil-ish things (Lynx, Fate, the Dragon Gods, your mom), but doesn’t return home. There’s no recrossing of the threshold! The game ended too quickly. One should never forget denouement.
As a bonus, here's a question: can any of these (or any bit of story theory) be identified in CE? If not, then we might want to stay away from making a CT spiritual successor too much like CE.
-
Very good points to be considered, Thought.
For reference, here's a time machine to check up on CE's plot:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120323162840/http://crimsonechoes.com/Plot.html
~~~
I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.
-
I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.
If that's narcissistic, then I'm probably the devil. :) <---- Despite all the innocent faces I give you all.
Anyway, when I mentioned a Crimson Echoes remake, I didn't intend to make a homage of the Chrono series. My intention was to relive the Crimson Echoes experience as it was meant to be: Playable, exploring the themes, ideas and adventures. My intention was to save / revive a lost Art. (Thought would understand that; after all, he was the one who called me "Redeemer of the Slain Dragons" once.)
Why?
Because despite the efforts taken to hone the story to its perfection, despite the time taken to upload every video of its gameplay, the amount of people that watch the story only consist of a fraction of the Chrono lovers, all the while majority of the market has fallen for countless of other lesser products that exist only as personal amusements.
I realize Crimson Echoes is only a fanfiction. But it's also a splendid Art in its own right.
The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas -- and hence needing ZeaLitY back in the team, if he can -- and still make it fun for people who've never touched the Chrono series before. I merely desired to turn Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes to simply Crimson Echoes, or even Crimson Echoes: Dirge of the Fallen, or perhaps even A Crimson Book of Echoes (the title which pokes at a reference from String Theory).
Anywho, before we start anything at all, we'll still need a realistic design document. Or at least discuss how the game can be made.
Speaking of which, Thought, as much as I love the idea of a professional means of production, I still abhor bureaucracy. I actually think it'll be a good idea that, despite having a professional team, we still remain transparent and work with the fans to have the best possible result. Especially because our team is small, we'll need to remain flexible at all costs.
-
Say, should we create a thread for this? Kinda felt like we've hijacked this one. :lol:
While we're at it, I offer my candidacy for a position on the gameplay structuring department.
-
I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.
The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas
And with the project only a couple of days old, we already have our first dispute.(http://s3.postimg.org/mgb8sh9zz/icon_alfador.gif)
I agree with Boo and Kodokami; Crimson Echoes has been done. Time to try something new, rather than recycling the old.
::Suppresses a random outbreak of story-bits::
On a more serious note, programmers are liable to be the thing in shortest supply here. I can count on my hands the number of people who dabble in coding that I know read this board: myself, utunnels, Ramsus, PSZ, and I think there's someone else who does app development as a day job. There were more before the C&D, but a knowledge of SNES assembly hacking does not necessarily translate into the ability to create a game engine in a modern high-level language. Ramsus is seldom seen here anymore, I have a full plate with my other game engine project (which some of you here are aware of) and a day job that mostly consists of writing boring CRUD[1] database programs, and the others may not have the time, the spoons[2], or the interest to get involved. Getting programmers is therefore likely to require branching out beyond the Chrono community, which makes a retread of Crimson Echoes even less attractive.
[1]An acronym for Create, Read, Update, Delete, not a value judgement (although sometimes it feels like one)
[2]The Spoon Theory (http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/)
-
Tush, the thing is, turning CT:CE into just Crimson Echoes requires a metric crapton of work. Why go through all that in order to create something that's just a step away from the original source? If people want to play CE, they can find a way to do so as is. What's the benefit that the team would get out of all their hard work?
As for working with the fan community as directly a you propose, I'd propose that a good game is a bit like a magic trick or like a sausage: the consumer is happier not knowing what does into it.
As Alfador said, a project like this would need talent beyond the community. Thus a leader would be needed with connections beyond the community. Connections, talent, vision, and a passionate drive: that's a tall order.
-
On a more serious note, programmers are liable to be the thing in shortest supply here. I can count on my hands the number of people who dabble in coding that I know read this board: myself, utunnels, Ramsus, PSZ, and I think there's someone else who does app development as a day job. There were more before the C&D, but a knowledge of SNES assembly hacking does not necessarily translate into the ability to create a game engine in a modern high-level language. Ramsus is seldom seen here anymore, I have a full plate with my other game engine project (which some of you here are aware of) and a day job that mostly consists of writing boring CRUD[1] database programs, and the others may not have the time, the spoons[2], or the interest to get involved. Getting programmers is therefore likely to require branching out beyond the Chrono community, which makes a retread of Crimson Echoes even less attractive.
A program like RPG Maker or GameMaker Studios could help simplify that process. I have access to both, and GameMaker even allows exports to the other devices (for a fee).
-
The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas
And with the project only a couple of days old, we already have our first dispute.(http://s3.postimg.org/mgb8sh9zz/icon_alfador.gif)
There's no harm in it. :wink: Always best to set things clear and find what works for everyone, before you work hard on a project only to find it stagnates at the end stages. Besides, despite the fact that proposition would lose here, I still believe I have a place to state my opinions which -- even if not taken -- would somehow benefit the discussion (say, themes, or characters, or concepts, etc.). Sometimes great art begins with great arguments. 8)
Tush, the thing is, turning CT:CE into just Crimson Echoes requires a metric crapton of work. Why go through all that in order to create something that's just a step away from the original source? If people want to play CE, they can find a way to do so as is. What's the benefit that the team would get out of all their hard work?
Fine, then. I take your point. (I'm still kinda disappointed, though...)
As for working with the fan community as directly a you propose, I'd propose that a good game is a bit like a magic trick or like a sausage: the consumer is happier not knowing what does into it.
Here I would disagree. This is only true for consumers who are indoctrinated to "simply accept" what comes their way are aren't fond of going the unconventional route unless "everyone's doing it". The consumers you're speaking about are usually those who are often used to the barrage of closed-source programs and, despite their annoyances with it, re-wire themselves to simply accept it.
I'm certainly not those kind of people. I'm a born rebel. I make choices as most people would do with their groceries (like, picking up an apple and considering it only after checking if it's fresh, and checking the price tag, etc.) and I realize that there are a whole lot of people like me out there (many of whom work as reviewers and critics, and even creative productions and marketing). Working with "just any crap" won't work for us. Consumer won't consider something if it doesn't work for them. Plenty these days opt either for simplicity, fun or freedom. Many go for "efficiency", which is why I'm selective about what I use in the first place (and if it doesn't work for me, so long as it's Open and community-influenced, then I'll HELP them get better, as I've helped Synfig and the like). Working with OpenSource developers, like those who programmed Plume Creator, has shown me enough how important creative feedback is between phases rather than after the final product is done, because nobody knows the product better than the ones who will essentially consume it (or the programmers who "dog-feed" it, like Microsoft workers). Sure, once in a while you're gonna get PATHETIC responses, like "why can't this turtle fly", but often the kinds of feedback you get is so out-there that even the developers inside often scratch their heads wondering, "Why didn't I think of this before?" You couldn't possibly imagine how much a single contribution from a community member can benefit so many people out there, especially with the professional development of Blender and all its countless plugins and scripts.
This is often why a lot of developers (at least the emerging kind) often work with the consumers, asking for advice and brainstorming. Not to please them, mind you, but to get ideas on how to make things better.
Why?
Because no matter how right you think you are, there are plenty of times you're absolutely wrong. And nobody knows this better than myself (and Square Enix... well, probably).
As Alfador said, a project like this would need talent beyond the community. Thus a leader would be needed with connections beyond the community. Connections, talent, vision, and a passionate drive: that's a tall order.
Which is why we need to balance: We need the best of community, as well as the best of development professionals. Here, let's not regress into the old-fashioned, traditional approach to business. Instead, because we're born from community first and foremost, community itself -- despite a professional team we have -- can help propel us further. Here, we look no further than the inception of Celtx (which has... really regressed in its business model, but it began from a pretty awesome phase first) and Canonical (who, despite their recent transition to newer projects, have always worked closely with the community, which essentially helped them do the impossible).
A program like RPG Maker or GameMaker Studios could help simplify that process. I have access to both, and GameMaker even allows exports to the other devices (for a fee).
Other options to explore would definitely be Unity (http://unity3d.com/) and Blender Game Engine (http://www.blender.org/education-help/tutorials/game-engine/) -- both of which are free, unless you really want those Pro features.
But that doesn't answer our biggest question: what platforms are we targeting? PC / Consoles? Web? Mobile?
-
But that doesn't answer our biggest question: what platforms are we targeting? PC / Consoles? Web? Mobile?
I'd say PC or Mobile. We could even attempt to get it hosted, like in say, Steam. Or some other site.
-
Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?
Tush, our second dispute?
You know me. You know I have a list, an essay, a book, of arguments supporting my stance, and I'd be happy to discuss it further if you'd like, but I'm not really sure if now is the time (or if there ever will be). We don't even have a team to make the decision, and even once we do, it will be up to them if they even want to hear my arguments. But I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you (or that I agree with you :P ) if I didn't respond.
... ... ...
Okay, I am a horrible person, but I can't resist giving at least one sentence in response. A good story will do things to readers that the readers would never do to themselves: the team has to have the freedom to do those horrible, delightful, wonderful, terrible things to the fans.
-
Tush, our second dispute?
What! Aw, geez! You guys say it like I'm some mortal enemy of yours! XD I'm just venting my concerns, is all!
Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?
The major difference is processing power, and the capability of your "chosen tool" to port either ways. In fact, I'm currently in the process of making a design document for a personal game that would play in every platform imaginable (even on a bicycle). However, the target decision would also mean you need to optimize your resources and gameplay accordingly.
In that sense, on the art side, I'm always willing to help. Depending on your chosen target and toolset, we can decide on the gameplay and art-assets quality. Here, Alfador can chime in with the technical aspects.
There's also the "consumer choice" you need to consider: CT like games are popular on mobiles. But would the modern generation play it on their full-powered PC? Well, there are ways to make them play it, but again we'll need to get creative on how to optimize gameplay to modern standards.
You know me. You know I have a list, an essay, a book, of arguments supporting my stance, and I'd be happy to discuss it further if you'd like, but I'm not really sure if now is the time (or if there ever will be). We don't even have a team to make the decision, and even once we do, it will be up to them if they even want to hear my arguments. But I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you (or that I agree with you :P ) if I didn't respond.
Hey, if I can't duel with a master, how will I ever learn? :wink:
But in either case, I actually encourage you to defend your stance. Not because arguments are cathartic, but because it helps me challenge my own perceptions and essentially hone my insights and intelligence, so I can offer the community better stuff (again, this I gather from interface designing on softwares with feedback from other artists, developers and consumers alike). Each information laid on the table (forget the rhetorics) can help both of us evaluate our opinions and what's at stake here, which will make sure we always take the best decision possible together.
Anywho, I'm going to sleep. But before I go, I leave you guys some questions to ponder out:
1) What platforms are we targeting?
2) How do we intend to monetize? What's our business model, and how are we distributing?
3) Depending on platform targets, what engines and toolkits will we be using? How flexible are they to allow people to create stuff rather than tools?
4) Who will begin the Design Document? Where? How?
And now, to the point...
1) What is the story about? Describe in only three sentences.
2) What is the synopsis of the story? Within one paragraph.
3) Who is the protagonist? Within one paragraph.
4) What is the game, environment and setting like? What will it look like? What will it feel like?
5) How will we produce the game? What are our goals?
6) What's so special about the game? What and how will it sell?
-
Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?
Mobile is still a lot more limited than PC. Developing for most mobile devices requires special software kits, and most of these kits cost $$$—iOS is especially bad. You are not going to be able to run code written for the PC on a mobile device unless you have several intermediate layers to paper over the gaps.
Overall, HTML5 (+ Javascript) is the only thing I can think of that can target both the three major PC operating systems and a reasonable selection of devices using the same, or even almost the same, codebase. Also, even if it could be done, I'm not sure it's a good idea—a user interface that's good for devices is not necessarily good for PCs, and vice-versa.
Another possibility would be to target the Ouya console, assuming it gets off the ground.
I would suggest not using RPGMaker or similar. Why? Because packages like that tend to be restricted in how you can deploy them (typically, they're Windows-only—keep in mind that tushantin and I are Linux users, and there's gotta be someone around here with a Mac. WINE is too unstable to be an acceptable workaround.) Not to mention that the more your kit implements for you, the more time you typically have to spend working around it to make it do what you want, as opposed to what the people who wrote it thought you would want to do. Furthermore, using a kit that costs money reduces the size of your developer pool, unless you can pay for their copies too.
There are a bunch of other things that need to be hammered out, too. Language of implementation? 2D or 3D graphics? My current project is Lua and 2D (and IMAO, not only do 3D graphics not add much to an RPG, but flashy graphics aren't the main thing people playing an indie-developed RPG are going to be looking for. Plus, I get motion-sick playing 3D games unless the camera is immobile). Tushantin seems to want to go 3D (and using Blender would suggest Python as an implementation language). Others may have other ideas.
-
Wow, this thread took off. o.o
I'd just like to say that I support the idea of being inspired by CT/CC/CE, but by no means support copying CE. Like someone said, if fans want to play CE, they can. This should be something of itself, carrying on the the Chrono legacy without using or just re-purposing its characters and story (such as just renaming things). Hell, does the protagonist need to be silent? As much as I love CT and CC, I say no.
Besides that, derail away! I'll go and change the topic title to something more appropriate... lol.
-
Oh, and I agree that using RPG Maker is a bad idea. For one, any RPG Maker game on Steam Greenlight is disregarded by many voters. It's an uphill battle. Also, it's a very, very limited program (especially when it comes to... resolution).
It's a nice program, I love it, I use it, but there are simply better methods to use if you have the opportunity. For me, a one man team, I stick to RPG Maker VX Ace on my original game, lol. But yeah, if we have a whole team, I don't think that's a good option.
-
So if I may weigh in...
I'm a little nervous about blindly jumping into such a project. How many projects has the community (and others) tried to get off the ground, only to crash and burn? I don't want to waste my time, nor do I want to waste anyone else's. I'm currently in school for a second master's degree, plus I'm trying to find time to write in what little down time I do have. On top of that, I'm about two weeks into learning the Python coding language (and I've started to at least look at C++), and it's going to take a lot of time and effort to get fluent. Oh, and I have a wife and daughter to worry about. I want to be involved, but only if this is a genuinely serious idea with a dedicated team.
For those familiar with project management and the realistic expectations that come with it, we need a unified vision, a dedication to see it through, and resources. Passion enough will not carry us through; passion alone will lead to disappointment and will fade in time. We need to work with a sense of urgency, an endgame in clear sight. We need to plan accordingly, and design expected deliverables. At the end of the day, every project comes down to:
Time
Money (Budget)
Quality
I'm glad that my project management and Masters of Business Administration courses are finally paying off, hahaha... Let me just throw it out there so we have a clear mission to adhere to:
"[INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] aims to create a fully integrated and complete time-traveling RPG for release in late-2014. This game is designed to follow in the vein of Square-Enix's Chrono Trigger series, and as such will embody many of the themes and nostalgic factors that make the game the pinnacle of the 16-bit video game era.
Our intent is to assemble a dedicated team of writers, spriters, mappers, programmers, and other creative roles to create a functional demo before 12/31/2013; on 1/1/2014, [INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] will "go public" and begin a crowd-funded Kickstarter campaign to raise monetary funds to begin full-scale production.
As of 6/1/2013, all team members agree to work on a purely pro-bono basis, although future potential profits of [INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] may be allocated to team members at a later date."
(Edited for grammar.)
-
Yeah, I agree this does needs to have at least some assurance that it can take off the ground. I'm also kinda wary of this, though at the same time a bit excited, if it does come through.
-
Wow, this thread took off. o.o
And you love every moment of it. <3
Anywho, regarding remaking CE, games are remade left and right everywhere, from Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls to Thief. So I don't get what's the fuss behind remaking CE. But if the majority don't want to do it, then I can't say anything against that, can I?
That said since we're aiming for commercial product, RPGMaker doesn't even count as a professional and adaptable toolkit. So let's just forget that one...
But we COULD use an equivalent called RPG.js (http://rpgjs.com/) which, though resembles RPGMaker, is still open source and hence highly adaptable. But even then we'll need a javascript coder to make it work for our design.
I still vote for Blender based, though. :)
Boo, as much as I agree that the project would need structure if there's any hope for it to see the light of day, I still believe that art without passion is some crap nobody wants. Why would anyone like your work if you don't like it yourself? In that regard, count me in as the team's Springtime Of Youth Officer so I can encourage moral support of the team. WE CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE, YES WE CAN!
But hey, let's not forget the primary target of this: money. We can't hope to accomplish this without money. We can't afford to not make royalties from sales. So we'll need to rack our brains at the important questions: What are we targeting? What platforms are the most adaptable? What niches haven't been filled already? What are competitions not doing right? What Supplies are consumers looking for that don't exist yet? What would get them to pay? What about those who manage to get the games for free? (Let's not be Luddite here and force lawsuits down consumers throats; we'll take a more creative approach, and I know exactly how.)
That said, before the project each begins, we still need to answer other important questions to get clarity. Scroll up to the questions Alfador and I asked earlier.
-
I'll start laying out questions and resources, and a whole list of options, for the communities to work with (each category in posts).
Development:
1) What are we targeting?
2) Depending on platform targets, what engines and toolkits will we be using?
3) What niches haven't been filled already? Or do we intend to piggy-back on existing genres and models?
4) What are competitions not doing right?
5) What Supplies are consumers looking for that don't exist yet? What would get them to pay?
6) How do we prevent piracy effectively? Should we go with the Angry Birds model?
7) How do we intend to monetize? What's our business model, and how are we distributing?
8.) Who will begin the Design Document? Where? How?
Story and Gameplay:
9) What is the story about? Describe in only three sentences.
10) What is the synopsis of the story? Within one paragraph.
11) Who is the protagonist? Within one paragraph.
12) What is the game, environment and setting like? What will it look like? What will it feel like? 2D or 3D, or something in the middle (like CC)?
13) How will we produce the game? What are our goals?
14) What's so special about the game? What and how will it sell?
15) What Language of implementation can we afford currently, based on our targets?
Practicality:
16) How much Time can we afford to invest in this? What are our (realistic) deadlines?
17) What is our budget of production? What kind of rewards will the developers (writers, artists, programmers, etc.) will obtain from this?
18.) What quality is our end-goal?
-
Point 6 is easy to answer: you can't. Any "piracy prevention" mechanism can be broken, and once it's broken once, it's broken for all time and for everyone. Making more than a token effort in that direction just inconveniences legitimate purchasers.
-
Point 6 is easy to answer: you can't. Any "piracy prevention" mechanism can be broken, and once it's broken once, it's broken for all time and for everyone. Making more than a token effort in that direction just inconveniences legitimate purchasers.
Which is why I mentioned we need to get creative when handling such issues. :)
Game Design Inspirations:
(Note: Most, if not all, of these examples are Android / iOS based, but may also work on Web and Desktops)
[youtube]DS7TtxBeh_o[/youtube]
[youtube]xjY8BNQgLT8[/youtube]
[youtube]blooun8ndUs[/youtube]
[youtube]_tZFttw1M9w[/youtube]
[youtube]ck4UaAOuE4s[/youtube]
[youtube]zoR6-Jai4j8[/youtube]
[youtube]1yoP1YXiKRY[/youtube]
[youtube]8F7hNKrb1Tw[/youtube]
[youtube]ul3IAEkv6Wc[/youtube]
-
Hey Tush,
I'm not saying that passion is a bad thing... Just saying that it alone is not capable of seeing a project this big off the ground. If that were true, then AE:HU, CC:DBT, CT:AE and all the other Chrono fan games would have made it off the ground. I know that there were technical limitations to some extent, but let's not forget the real world applications at work here.
:)
Also, if you feel very strongly about reworking CE, I'd honestly recommend you contacting Giro / Ruby Dragoon over at the Flames of Eternity. I'm completely serious. I mean, Flames of Eternity is a more completed version of Crimson Echoes, but you never know what they'd be willing to do. Just a thought. You could always work with us AND work them, that way you get your creative desires completely fulfilled.
Moving on, I think there are some good questions in those you proposed, Tush, but some of them don't apply in this scenario. This is essentially a "start up" venture, and it's completely different from an established project with an established organization. Some of these questions are null and void (crossed out), while others are future-oriented and italicized; it is simply too early to try to answer those questions.
Development:
1) What are we targeting?
2) Depending on platform targets, what engines and toolkits will we be using?
3) What niches haven't been filled already? Or do we intend to piggy-back on existing genres and models?
4) What are competitions not doing right?
5) What Supplies are consumers looking for that don't exist yet? What would get them to pay?
6) How do we prevent piracy effectively? Should we go with the Angry Birds model?
7) How do we intend to monetize? What's our business model, and how are we distributing?
8.) Who will begin the Design Document? Where? How?
Story and Gameplay:
9) What is the story about? Describe in only three sentences.
10) What is the synopsis of the story? Within one paragraph.
11) Who is the protagonist? Within one paragraph.
12) What is the game, environment and setting like? What will it look like? What will it feel like? 2D or 3D, or something in the middle (like CC)?
13) How will we produce the game? What are our goals?
14) What's so special about the game? What and how will it sell?
15) What Language of implementation can we afford currently, based on our targets?
Practicality:
16) How much Time can we afford to invest in this? What are our (realistic) deadlines?
17) What is our budget of production? What kind of rewards will the developers (writers, artists, programmers, etc.) will obtain from this?
18.) What quality is our end-goal?
-
I've always felt CE's strength lies in how it digs deeper into something that's already present. It's like any good sequel in that regard; to analogize, James Cameron couldn't have produced classics like Aliens or Terminator 2 without having a foundation to explore. If you want to create something that carries the same impact Crimson Echoes did, you must first have the spiritual tribute to Chrono Trigger in place. My two cents anyway.
I'd be curious to get feedback from experienced programmers on the pluses and minuses of Unity (http://unity3d.com/), which tushantin mentioned earlier. It's advertised as a multiplatform solution, with Linux support being rolled out from what I'm able to understand. Unity should reduce the development pipeline by providing basic game engine functions out-of-the-box, with C# and a JavaScript-like language being the two most popular scripting approaches. I've seen indie developers use it for both pure 2D and pure 3D, and I'm told on the support forums that a hybrid aesthetic should be doable as well. There are license costs of course (and per-platform licenses), so that's one thing. If the project looks serious and my hopes for a low-cost lifestyle pan out, my interest in Unity is such that I'd be interested in donating the licenses. But I imagine finding a way to share them across a geographically distributed programming team could get tricky. After learning about Unity I have a giant interest in C#, but I have to admit it'd be many moons before I'm up to snuff enough to pitch in with an effort like this.
Dream Splash! 2013 is coming up if I'm not mistaken? It might be interesting if the theme were to set to hash out some of the basics of the project proposed here. People could propose time travel theories, gameplay ideas, concept art for different eras of the new world's history...might be enough to get a rich primordial soup going. But I'm not sure how much this would end up conflicting with the idea of a closed team carrying the project to a professional conclusion. At what point should the project transition from the open-source discussion we're enjoying here to a more traditional, closed model of game development?
-
Just gotta say DRM is stupid invention. It only serves to annoy legitimate buyers, since pirates can crack anything. DRM-free is the way to go.
If the game did take off, we should immediately look into getting it on Desura. If anyone hasn't heard of that, just Google it and check it out. It's comparable to Steam, but is easier to get on and is a massive marketplace for indie developers. It would be great to get on Steam, too, but Desura is a great staging point, even for alpha versions of games.
-
Faust, good point. A Crimson Echoes needs a Chrono Trigger. To take a step away from Crimson Echoes would also take a step away from Chrono Trigger, and thus weaken the entire thing. Better to go forward with a game inspired by CT, to better catch that magic.
As for when the game should make a switch from open source to intense development, I'd say as soon as a team leader comes forward and decides it's time. Everything really depends on that lead, which, unfortunately, might mean that nothing will really happen until years, maybe decades, down the line and a fan gets established in a career, remembers CT, and decides to put the company they've built onto it.
-
Also, if you feel very strongly about reworking CE, I'd honestly recommend you contacting Giro / Ruby Dragoon over at the Flames of Eternity. I'm completely serious. I mean, Flames of Eternity is a more completed version of Crimson Echoes, but you never know what they'd be willing to do. Just a thought. You could always work with us AND work them, that way you get your creative desires completely fulfilled.
The problem with the FoE team, as you mentioned earlier, is that they may not be willing to give credit to the original developers -- ZeaLitY, Agent 12 and Crono'99. If what you're saying is right, then I have no intention of working with shallow people as that. (Because the whole point is to save the CE team's efforts of their art by actually saving their art, and let them have credit for it... The only thing I actually want out of this is, 1) Monetary rewards for my efforts, and 2) Credit and success for the art I add into it so I can sustain my career.)
That said, thanks for refining the questions list! But why cross out targets? What's the point of putting effort into something and wanting to be sure about it when you're not having set goals?
And why cross out "what's so special about this game"? Isn't that question important when it comes to innovation?
-
Dream Splash! 2013 is coming up if I'm not mistaken? It might be interesting if the theme were to set to hash out some of the basics of the project proposed here. People could propose time travel theories, gameplay ideas, concept art for different eras of the new world's history...might be enough to get a rich primordial soup going.
I think having this game concept be the topic for our next Dream Splash is a good idea. We ought to see what everyone (and by everyone I mean those interested in this game concept) is capable of adding to the project, and get a decent stone soup boiling, before jumping the bandwagon.
Also, if I may be so bold to ask, how many of us can actually say they have experience in game development? Sold a game on the market? We may be in over our heads here to propose a full length game. I'd still like to try, but only if we're serious about it. I do suggest that those who are interested read up on game development (I found these (http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game) two (http://www.mode7games.com/blog/2012/06/12/how-to-be-an-indie-game-developer/) articles to be highly informative).
-
No experience in game development, minus writing. I helped write (and am still writing) Chrono Shift, although now it's just the script process.
However, I do have experience in project management and development, however, which helps me have a good grasp for conceptually designing and seeing projects to completion. That included retail banking products and software platforms and had nothing to do with video games.
-
I've once participated in the creation of a game. I didn't got to do much other than write dialogue, design a character, and come up with some plot concepts, though almost all of it got overhauled, and I eventually got left behind so to speak. Partly my fault, though.
Anyway, I do have knowledge and experience in working with Math. So while I may not, say, know how to code battle mechanic formulas, I could come up with them. And other related stuff like parameters, AI behavior, and stuff.
-
I do suggest that those who are interested read up on game development (I found these (http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game) two (http://www.mode7games.com/blog/2012/06/12/how-to-be-an-indie-game-developer/) articles to be highly informative).
Those articles largely present the same information you'll find about succeeding, professionally, at any creative endeavor. The difference between a fan game and a real game is that one gets completed, the other doesn't. And the force behind that difference is the willingness to slog through a project past the point of sanity, until it's done.
I don't have any experience in game development. The closest I come is in trying to develop the story lines for a few. Since the last project I worked on, I have written a few books, so I should be better at that (and more likely to complete it, too). Still, books are different than game stories and scripts.
-
I'm a writer and have done a lot of lore work, so I'd be completely willing to do the background/busy work that fleshes out the game's universe, especially if there was a codex function integrated (think of Dragon Age, which did an excellent job at creating a deep, meticulous back-story behind things).
I've also done some screenwriting and have schooled in it a bit, so at the very least I could help where there's a need in that category.
-
FaustWolf: If I've read correctly, I believe Xamarin's iPhone and Android kits are $300 each. I don't know if Unity has its own.
-
Looks like I'm the only one on board as an artist, not just for concept and character art but also proficient in 3D (I actually even taught some of you here how to use Blender). And recently I've also acquired some new graphic design skillz!
That said, I also know a bit of screenwriting (see Moonlight Reckoning and Polar Detective). I've also helped a few (community) projects with plot and character ideas, as some of you already know of. And I must say, if the project is to move forward, all this makes me an indispensable addition to the team. :)
I haven't any experience in (professional) game development, but that will change soon as 1) I've recently sent in my pitch to a company, hoping they'd be interested, and 2) I can leverage this project (if you guys follow through) as my professional experience and thus propel me in my career.
......God, I sound like I'm giving an interview. Can we have some informal humor in here?
-
I've schooled in and have done graphic design work too. Been playing with Photoshop since I was waist-high. :|
-
Photoshop? Photoshop! BAH! Young kids today, they have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Now Dr. Doodle, THAT was a graphic creation program!
Next, you'll be telling me you never used a blue screen Wordperfect program, either!
-
Waist-high? The waist of who? :lol:
I've drawn.... in paint... does that counts? :? Nah, I already stated in what I can work best.
-
lol, I was gonna say knee-high, but I don't think I was quite that short. My mom had a graphic artist friend at the time, so she... let us borrow Photoshop 5.5. Yeah, borrow. :)
But naturally I started with doodles in MSPaint. Hell, when I was really young I used to type random things in DOS for no reason whatsoever.
-
Photoshop? Photoshop! BAH! Young kids today, they have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Now Dr. Doodle, THAT was a graphic creation program!
I've drawn.... in paint... does that counts? :? Nah, I already stated in what I can work best.
Dr. Doodle? Paint?! BAH! You... human folks... today... I make my professional Graphic Designs with wax crayons. Now THAT is a graphic creation tool that real artists choose!
I mean... LOOK AT THESE GENIUSES AT WORK! I do my best to emulate these masters as much as I can.*
(http://www.frrpd.com/Pictures/Kids%20with%20crayons.jpg)
My mom had a graphic artist friend at the time, so she... let us borrow Photoshop 5.5. Yeah, borrow. :)
Interesting! My first dabbling into digital art actually began similarly, though not by choice entirely...
My uncle sent in money to buy us nephews our very first computer (I was still 15 or 16, I think). See, some strange engineer actually accidentally installed Photoshop 6 and just left it in there, forgetting about it. I knew the program was expensive, because I've heard that some "professionals" used it for photo editing... but we didn't even have photos to begin with, because we couldn't afford a camera either.
So anywho, we brothers played around with it, but couldn't figure the damn thing out. My younger brother decided to "give up" on it, but being the rebel I was I decided to conquer it and looked up tutorials for it, just for the hell of it and just because I believed I could. Eventually I realized you could make anime (specifically Dragonball Z) pictures with it. Sweet! So I followed the tutorials, scanned my drawings, coloured the drawings with only a mouse via the Lasso tool (I couldn't figure out how to use the Pen tool), and....
....the resulting picture was crap. No sweat! I was proud of my work, and decided to do more. I still practised with just a mouse (http://tushantin.deviantart.com/art/King-of-Demons-Magus-94714358) until I managed to purchase a graphic tablet (which was nearly impossible to acquire in my city... I literally ran across the city, trying to find one, let alone get an "affordable" one. THAT'S how dedicated I was to my art, and it was awkward for me and my family because I hadn't a specific role-model who was in our vicinity; I was the first one trying to become a digital artist that we know of, and nobody knew what the heck a Tablet was).
And eventually, I came to become the artist you guys know me today (http://tushantin.deviantart.com/art/Walt-Whitman-Marching-Towards-Eternity-305602093) (who totally ditched Photoshop in favour of open-source and more "awesome" alternatives). :)
*In that last sentence there above the picture, I was actually being serious.
-
Y'know, maybe I have a shitty tablet, but I've never liked drawing that way. I can draw considerably cleaner lines with a mouse (though just drawing on paper and scanning is vastly more preferable), while drawing with a tablet is just too sketchy for me. It's a Wacom, and it wasn't that cheap when I bought it, but I'd imagine it's horribly dated now. I'm not much of an artist as far as drawing goes anyways.
-
Y'know, maybe I have a shitty tablet, but I've never liked drawing that way. I can draw considerably cleaner lines with a mouse (though just drawing on paper and scanning is vastly more preferable), while drawing with a tablet is just too sketchy for me. It's a Wacom, and it wasn't that cheap when I bought it, but I'd imagine it's horribly dated now. I'm not much of an artist as far as drawing goes anyways.
It seems like you may be offended by my words (you'll need to pardon me on that; I tend to somehow do that unintentionally.) I'm sorry, I didn't mean to undermine you on anything, if you interpreted it as that. I just like to think aloud, and just... flow. (Yes, I'm one of those people who tends to talk to myself)
But there's something I think -- whether differently or in-line to your belief, that's for you to choose -- that art comes from tools that come natural to you. Tablet doesn't work? Put it aside until it comes to use later. My painting pattern is "circular", which is why a tablet helps me.
But drawing alone doesn't make "art". Heck, your knowledge and insights on positions, forms and colors are usually enough for most successful graphic artists out there (akin to my previous boss who's taught me plenty)! Michaelangelo hated drawing too; he preferred sculpting.
Yet, the greatest art isn't "what you're good at", but "what you're willing to do just to be good at something you like or don't like". Because the greatest art isn't the paper, or the clay, that is destined to be complete. The greatest masterpiece is you, who is a multitude enough to create moving pieces or influence events in ways no one was every capable of before. A flesh can be a poem. A soul can be its music.
So in any case, I'm not really sure who you are idiotekque (though I'd like to know!), and I'm not sure about what your life is like, and I'm not exactly sure how good of an artist you consider yourself to be. But I'm perfectly sure that, being a part of this project or something else entirely where your abilities with Photoshop can be put to use, you'll gain so much in skill that it's hard to imagine right now. :wink: Even if the project isn't complete, it's what you gain personally that makes you smile with no regrets of being a part of a great experience.
-
Offended by what? I'm not offended, you must have misunderstood me.
I know I'm a very artistic person, I'm just not much of a drawer (if that's a proper term). Silly as it may be, I honed my graphic art style when I made signature/banners for people on a Freelancer (online space combat/trading game) forum, in exchange for in game credits. From there I've done some logo and banner work for people, have created my own logos for past projects (abandoned blogs, for one), etc. My artistic side, though, is far more prevalent in my writing, from short stories to novels to poetry to lyrics. I dabble in DAW composing too, but I need to learn the latest program I'm trying out.
I think all of us need to be creative on some level, or life just feels meaningless. We're meant to create, whether it be through prose, music, illustration, whatever. Unfortunately that old quote "Nobody but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." often feels horribly accurate.
-
Ahahah, I was thinking on mentioning instead sheet of paper and crayons, but then I decided to keep the theme of Computer Programs. Oh well... :lol:
-
Bonus points for you, Acacia ;)
Anywho, it doesn't look like we have any team leaders coming forward, but it would be totally awesome if, regardless of game, members of the Chrono Community banded together into a professional game development studio. I suspect that the unfortunate revisions to Kajar Labs haven't done much to promote such a community. Perhaps some coding/program/whatever branches of it could be opened up again. Not to hack the original roms (because that would be totally awesome, and SE can't have any of that), but to allow for discussions that don't involve CT fangames made with RPG maker or the sort.
-
Lemme share an inspiring Indian quote (translated by yours truly) with y'all:
Who says the sky can't have a dent? Just try to throw a stone with enough health and spirit you can muster, my friend.
-
Wow. I'm off the Compendium for a little while and look what happens? It's been years since I've seen a thread generate this kind of activity.
Jumping into the discussion a bit late, I feel I need to remind people of the importance of character. Not what they are and what they do, but who they are. I've seen lots of talk about time travel and associated theories, but not a lot about the characters themselves. If you want to capture the essence of Chrono, you have to capture character in a bottle. That's not easy, and is one of the reasons why most fan-projects either fail outright or come off feeling underwhelming. In the context of a game, your art has to convey character as much as dialogue. Look back on the original CT and see how a character's unique animation lent an air of individuality to that person. Crono's fist-pump. Marle's scream. Lucca tipping her glasses, etc. These little things add more than you might think. Combine that with distinctive ways of talking and a musical theme for each character, and you have Chrono. It's not just about the time-travel. Plot devices don't make people fall in love with sprites or polygons.
That said, perhaps the single most daunting challenge to a fan-project of the scope being discussed here is finding a good composer. Since you can't use any of Mitsuda's stuff, you'd have to create a new score from the ground up. A simple dabbler in music will not do. You need a professional composer to flesh out the character of a game, and good luck finding one willing to work for pennies, or who aren't already working for a major game studio.
I don't want to poo-poo on anyone's aspirations, but talking about a full-fledged Kickstarter project is a big step up from hacking Super Nintendo ROMs. How much of this is serious discussion, and how much is just wishful thinking? After all, what we really want is a continuance or a remake of the Chrono franchise. For all our talk of creating something new, deep down we just want to see Crono, Marle, and Lucca again. Am I wrong?
-
If we just wanted to see the Trio again, then fanfic, fan art, and replaying the old game would be enough. People want to recapture the original experience of playing the game, and they can't get that without a new game, but the new game needn't be CT to invoke the same experience.
That said, it's more of a question of if people want to create a game, or if people want to have created a game. That is, do they enjoy the creative process, or just want the end product and the fame that comes with it?
-
Frankly, I don't think I'd have the chance to play the game we create, so rest assured I was more serious about actually creating it. But then you'd question my passion regarding creating the game in the first place; the reason behind my decision is that I need a professional level project which can be recognized and hence propel me further towards properly starting my dream career.
So no: as much as I'd like to see the Chrono crew again, I'd like to be more focused on original content for now.
That's where I thought: what if we make Crimson Echoes an original content altogether and save it from oblivion? But of course, folks here don't like the idea. Then comes the question: What will our story be then? We know there will be time and dimension travel, but how and why? And as you, Lennis, point out out, who will the characters be?
But no one seems to have a clue.
Except for me.
There is an interesting Time-Space and Dimension based game I once thought of that I eventually shared with FaustWolf, and the story and gameplay had nothing to do with Chrono series. Agreed, it's the kind of game I'd like to work on in the future, but I refrain from stating it here because I believe it's quite an ambitious project to start with and hence we'll never get it done. Hence I proposed Crimson Echoes, because it's easier and more affordable to test the waters with an existing storyline. However, it'll be even easier if someone has a better idea.
P. S. : Since I'm already working (alone) on a project, why can't I get literary and artistic help on that here? I'd love some collaboration for Polar Detective!
-
The important thing is putting our heads together and trying. If it flops, oh well, it flopped. Playing devil's advocate in that the project is hopeless isn't really going to do any good. Impressive games been made by single individuals or very small start up teams before, I say with strong emphasis "Nothing is impossible."
That said, characters will be very important, yes. I don't really anyone here was saying nor thinking "Time travel plot > characters", though.
-
Just thought I'd bring this to everyone's notice: http://code.google.com/p/gamekit/
And yes, it's possible to make 2d games with 3d engines like Blender, Unity and Game kit. Hey, the successful Bad Piggies did it!
-
Coming up with characters or plot is not the difficult part.[1] The problem is getting everyone pointed in the same direction. I know it isn't a job that I would like to take on—management isn't much fun, and I've got too little time and too much Stuff that I would like to get done already. The problem with enjoying the process of creation is that you end up with a lot of unfinished projects lying around, and more are always turning up to whack you over the head.
[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.
-
That said, it's more of a question of if people want to create a game, or if people want to have created a game. That is, do they enjoy the creative process, or just want the end product and the fame that comes with it?
Quite personally, I wouldn't see much point on the latter without acknowledging the former. Like how does that saying goes? "What matters is the journey, not the destination"? Either way, it's not like the former can't be enjoyable on it's own right.
-
[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.
To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.
Just my 2¢.
-
If I can have 2¢ from at least 50 people here, I'd have a dollar! :D
BTW how about a game like this? http://appadvice.com/review/anime-turns-into-a-shooting-game-in-inheritage-boundary-of-existence
(http://wpuploads.appadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IMG_2274-642x361.jpeg)
-
To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.
Just my 2¢.
I wouldn't be so sure about this. Well, it would depend on how the time traveling would be handled. After all, trying to have two proactive parties meddling with time at the same time relatively speaking... well, and I guess also how the switching parties would be handled as well. Like, as soon as one makes a change, changing to the other party will have the changes already or something... that kind of stuff I suppose.
Not to mention keeping track of all of it to make a coherent progression of events.
-
[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.
To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.
Just my 2¢.
I like this idea, but let me suggest that you move away from princes and princesses and ground this story in a more contemporary setting - like in the world we know. This would be more of a science-fiction story than a pure fantasy, but I think time-travel lends itself better to that genre - Chrono notwithstanding. A really bold storyteller could introduce situations that challenge conventional notions of virtue by not shying away from hard questions - two protagonists that take differing views on how history unfolded, and act according to those beliefs. For example, if you could prevent 9/11, would you? What would be the consequences of doing so? For that matter, the 2000 presidential election was so close that the interference of a time-traveler could easily change the final result. Would there be unintended consequences from an Al Gore presidency? Would George W. Bush challenge him again in 2004 and win? Would Barack Obama be able to defeat George Bush in 2008, assuming that 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan never happened? How would all of this reflect on peace in the middle-east or on Russia's desire to restore its former sphere of influence? There are many directions and themes the storyteller could explore while in no way linking themselves to an existing IP.
As to the gameplay, consider a Metal Gear Solid approach to changing history rather than balls-to-the-wall gunplay. Cinematically, MGS is also a good approach to take with a time-traveling story.
Hmmm... Now that I think about it, what I just described could only be done competently by a AAA development studio. Oh well. I tried. :oops:
-
I don't really anyone here was saying nor thinking "Time travel plot > characters", though.
Oh, if no one has, then I will: a time travel setting (time travel isn't a plot) is more important than characters, insofar as we want a game that feels like Chrono Trigger.
There are three essential components to any story: plot, chracter, and setting.
CT's plot is fairly standard, actually: the world is in danger by a monster, the hero has to go fight the monster. It's St. George and the Dragon writ large. That said, the monster IS a beloved one. A CT-esq game without a Lavos-esq big bad is like Arkham Horror without a lovecraftian monster. But that's taking us back to setting.
The CT characters, while fun, didn't really create the feel of the game either. We have the silent hero, the rebelious princess, the bespeckled mentor/inventor, the swordsman who wants to restore honor, the barbarian who wants to protect her people, the robot who wants to be human, and the wizard who wants to find a lost love.
The setting (magic, time travel, a monster, Zeal, etc) are what made CT feel CT.
I mentioned before that CT did interesting things: another thing it did was have a single PC from every playable era (except the present, which got 3). That also helped us get familiar with the eras they were from, so we could love each, even if there really wasn't much to it (future and prehistory). So, here I would definitely say setting begets characters. Want to have 8 different time periods? Then there should be 8 PC's at least.
To be fair, adding characters is the quickest way to balloon a story. 8 PC's would essentially make this Wheel of Time. If we want something more manageable, fewer PCs is a good way to go, so also then fewer time periods, and a smaller setting.
The problem with enjoying the process of creation is that you end up with a lot of unfinished projects lying around, and more are always turning up to whack you over the head.
Nah, that's simply a problem with not finishing things, which can be caused by not having enough ideas.
-
@skylark, etc: Yes, logically the girl has her own character arc (I'm not sure she should actually be a princess—a little class disparity might make things even more interesting). Suddenly I have this image in mind of her starting out in the future as an orphan with no relevant education and no obvious prospects and ends up as Madame President or Madame CEO or General, Ma'am!...and then the prince turns up, flips her life upside down, and has the temerity to ask for her help... We end up with two contrasting approaches to being flung forward in time: she makes the best of where and when she is, and becomes successful, while he can't let go of his past and ends up with Issues. And with her arc being confined to the time period in which she lands, we don't have the problem of two of them messing with time simultaneously, although it becomes more interesting if she (unlike the people around her) is aware of the changes he's making and decides that he's a problem...
@Lennis: I don't think it's a good idea to go topical. Not everyone in the world is interested in US politics, and no matter what "take" you have on them, you're going to piss off part of your potential audience. The game you're describing needs an AAA studio because its main audience isn't the same as the main audience for the Chrono games (I won't say there's no overlap, but I would expect it to be small). And the basic idea isn't much different from all the old what-if-we'd-done-X-in-WWII SF stories...
@Thought: I disagree—none of the setting ideas are really anything new either. I mean, Zeal is Atlantis, time travel as a concept is more than a hundred years old, the monster has analogues in everything from Grendel to the tinfoil-covered flashlight in a certain lackluster episode of the original Star Trek, etc... It's the combination of everything—the setting elements, the characters (who while not massively original each had some screen time to flesh them out), and the plot details—that make CT what it is. A mixture of individually-familiar elements, engagingly arranged.
You end up with unfinished projects if you have lots of additional ideas jumping at you and trying to grab your attention. Either that, or you have to discipline yourself to let most of the new ideas die before they have the chance to live, so that you can finish what you've already started. Either way, a lot of ideas are stillborn.
-
I fully support the idea of giving things a contemporary settings, minus political themes.
When you finish Chrono Chross (the good way), Kid is shown searching through a modern day city, walking along railroad tracks, etc, looking for Serge. In the grand scheme of things, it's pretty random, sure, but I like the idea of game with a more modern settings alongside the time travel theme (because obviously you'll be headed back to the days of swords and magic anyways).
Look at a current game like The Secret World. Granted, it has nothing to do with time travel, but it's an RPG in a modern setting with a very interesting story focused on impossible, supernatural events in a modern setting. It's not all ghosts and spooky creatures either, it's full of almost alien entities, such as the filth, a corrupting, pervasive creature full of disease that spreads its sickness to everything it touches. Not that I'm suggesting we copy anything about it (besides it's setting, which isn't saying much), but I think it's a great game to look at for reference.
Also, through all this talk, I haven't heard anything about an antagonist. Trigger had Lavos. Cross had Lynx (and Fate). If this new game is simply... battling time, and event/s that will or have happened, it's gonna be really vague and unimpressive. We need a really, really, really terrible antagonist. We knew we HAD to defeat Lavos. He was gonna eat the damn world! We WANTED to kill Lynx. We watched him kill Kid's family! We need a similar creature to hate in this game. Beyond that, I think we need a strong, dark individual with motives of spreading something extremely dangerous through the world. He SUCCEEDS at this, and we see the devastation he's wrought. Without copying TSW's filth creature, I think it would be a powerful, scary element for this antagonist to spread a similar, infectious blight of death and disease across the world, corrupting all it comes in contact with. It would be a pretty grand undertaking, especially if this enemy could traverse time periods, leading to very tense encounters.
Anyways, just brainstorming, but we definitely need a good antagonist.
-
I'd think it would be interesting to have an antagonist that isn't quite evil, at least not initially, and that it's by the protagonist's actions that it gets that way.
Like say, kinda like when the Reptite Timeline came and went in Crimson Echoes, but this hypothetical antagonist wouldn't "give up" easily, so to speak, like the Xamoltan did. Some sort of existentialist theme, I'd guess.
-
While it's nice to see such enthusiasm...a lot of this seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
Yes, the story is critical any game project, but as much as I love the stories of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, what I liked more was their structure, their battle systems, the multitude of elements that could only be described as "gameplay," character graphics, music, and general "atmosphere." Getting all these these elements separately would require teams of people, and pulling them into a cohesive whole requires even more work.
If you all pull this off, it would be awesome. I really don't have anything of value to add. The only throwaway suggestion I could make is if there is a combo-magic system in place, then maybe it can take a cue from Ogre Battle 64 and Breath of Fire IV and have the combo elements sort of enhance each other (Fire + Wind = Towering Inferno). Combo heals could also remove negative status effects the way combo heals could in OB64. In general, I think looking outside of the CT/CC box would be good from a gameplay perspective as these could enhance the game.
I've got too many ideas of my own I'm forgetting as I write to do anything but naysay other people until the end of time.
-
That's nice in theory, but it practice it's more engaging to the engineer of the antagonist rather than the player who's coming at the game with no prior knowledge of things. You need an antagonist who you can both hate with a passion, yet still have a subtle theme of understanding of his nature and why he does what he does. Lynx was a very complicated antagonist, and having the player inside his body was also a very, very powerful device to twist the player's view of things.
The Pendragon series (a 10 book YA novel series) did great with its antagonist too, although a lot of the writing wasn't the greatest. The antagonist in those books was pure evil, travelling to different worlds and different times to influence the key moment in that world's lifetime that would put it in the wrong direction. i.e. He traveled to the past in one book to when the Hindenburg went down... to actually prevent the disaster, because there were Nazi agents onboard that eventually lead to a holocaust in the US. Through all the evil he committed, though, he had a twisted, yet in his eyes, noble objective in mind, to unite all worlds (instead of keeping them separate) under one banner, and create a perfect society. He was totally (pardon my French) ****ed in the head, of course, but that's never a bad thing in an antagonist.
And, with respect, the gameplay of CT and CC was good but nothing all that special. It's the story that wrapped me into those games, not the gameplay.
-
In my experience, some people like their villains to be extremely and irredeemably evil, and others like them to be people who honestly believe that they're doing the right thing, but chose the wrong methodology or just had the bad luck to end up on the wrong side. Black and white versus shades of grey.
Chrono Trigger manages to kinda-sorta-maybe-almost offer both at once: on the one hand we have Lavos, who is utter and irredeemable evil (but not so much a character as a force of nature), and on the other hand, we have Magus, villain turned reluctant hero, and his tragic and messy past. In Cross, Lynx really fills the Magus niche, not the Lavos niche, complete with having a tragic past of his own—we just don't find out about it until after he's dead.
Really, CT only works because Lavos is treated as a force of nature. If they'd tried to make it work as a character, they would have ended up with Final Fantasy V, whose weakest point is its antagonist.
(Full disclosure: I'm a firm believer in the shades-of-grey type of antagonist. Having a character who's evil for the sake of being evil makes me feel like I'm being manipulated by the creator of the story. It's clumsy.)
-
You're totally misunderstanding me. I never suggested that having an antagonist who is being evil just to be evil. That's just weak writing. There needs to be an antagonist that elicits real emotion in the player, and that isn't easily achieved by just making them a blurry grey thing. The correct balance is having an antagonist who you can strongly hate, while still having in the back of your mind "Who is he? Why is he doing what he's doing?" as opposed to just "Wow, this guy is a total douche.", and Lynx was excellent in this regard.
Fate and the Time Devourer sort of took up the Lavos role in CC, in that Fate was the twisted, unspeakable yet (in some people's eyes) amoral scientific creation, while the Time Devourer was nature enraged and wreaking vengeance on a corrupt mankind. One was wrong in what it did (and had the capacity of being hated, yet almost in a tragic way because that's the path humanity takes), while another was perhaps was the embodiment of righteous fury, but was malevolent and destructive, crushing even innocents in its wake (which is clearly something that strikes a powerful chord in the player's emotions).
The similarity in these antagonists is that you can indeed HATE them. They stir up the fire inside saying "They need to be stopped." and drive a player's interest in both gameplay and story, but they aren't so shallow of characters that it's simply a "being bad just cuz" thing. That said, I wouldn't call them gray area antagonists either.
-
To be honest, I don't see that feeling hate for them is a necessity to also have the need to stop them. The latter is a must since they're the antagonists, and so there needs to be a sense of opposition, and while making us hate them is one way, I don't see it as THE way.
-
If you're writing a Ludlum novel, sure. If you're making an RPG that is the spiritual successor of the Chrono series, I disagree.
I understand your perspective (because I don't necessarily disagree with it in every setting), but I don't feel it fits this circumstance.
-
A what novel? Either way, I'd also disagree that for being a spiritual successor to Chrono, it needs the hated antagonist.
Well anyway, my forte is not storytelling, so what would I know anyway...
-
Magus is an awesome character, I agree with that. When you think of Chrono Trigger, though, do you see him as the grand antagonist? Hell no, he's a gray area character, and he ends up being more or less GOOD.
Do you think of the insurmountable, unstoppable force of the world eater Lavos? Do you think of the accomplishment you felt when you cracked that shell open and took down the most powerful destructive force in the universe? Hell yeah.
I'm all for gray characters and intricate stories that make you think. I write them myself. I simply don't think they have a strong place in this kind of game, this kind of story, this kind of project. By all means, there can be gray area characters, but the primary antagonist? Utterly disagreed about that.
EDIT: But hey, I'm not in charge. I'm just giving a writer's perspective that I think applies to this case. I've even had teachers who insist on that hated antagonist in any story. I disagree with that rigid of a view, but there's a lot of merit in that view. To SOME extent, it's extremely important to have that reader vs. antagonist relationship, even disregarding the characters in the book. When the reader/player/viewer feels emotionally invested in things, the story profits.
-
idiotekque: You must be thinking of the wrong Lynx. In Chrono Cross, we don't know Lynx's motives for most of the story; we don't even learn of Lucca's murder til way after it matters. There is so much wrong with the development of Lynx's character that all I could feel for him is sympathy, not hate. Tell Serge that he's actually his old man before he kills him--now that would be interesting.
You also forgot to mention perhaps the most important antagonist in Cross: the Dragon God, and by connection the planet! Lynx is just the dark horse beside this guy. It's a shame it and Harle's relation with Serge was overlooked during development.
A final note: I could probably find more to hate about Magus than Lavos, but that may just be an opinion on my part. I'll think more about it.
-
Anyways, just brainstorming, but we definitely need a good antagonist.
:kz <------ This guy. 'Nuff said. 8)
Lennis believes that Characters are what drive the story. Though believes that it's the Plot, the Setting, that's the core foundation of the game / story. Nangbaby makes it clear that it's the Gameplay and Atmosphere, the Art and Programming (heck, Programming is also an art-form) is what builds them and that makes the game in the first place.
Honestly speaking, neither are above each other; if we focus on one over the other, we have plenty in lacking. Chrono Trigger is very much like a globe, where an individual is appealed by an aspect they relate the most with (or actually want to be appealed by). But there's no question that what made Chrono Trigger great was the sheer balance of everything.
And a good game needs a good leader that understands this, and manages skills proficiently with the goal in mind, balancing every resource needed to achieve it.
Hence why I question yet again: What the heck are we aiming for? Something worth playing for fun? Something you could pour hours on end? Something that's simply a visual telling of a novel? What is it?
What kind of game would YOU want to play?
Personally, I wouldn't want to jump into a full-fledged CT-like RPG (unless some have a finished, open-sourced engine working for development, and we have artists on-board -- doesn't matter 2D or 3D). That would take too long. Instead, since we're just freshly starting out, we ought to go for a simpler design of a game that would be fun to play, quick to produce, and much to profit from at least for the time being. Keeping our goals small and achievable sets us up for long-term success with bigger projects too. Doesn't have to be perfect.
This reminds me of how Ninja Gaiden's own complex story-line came into being: the idea actually started off as a wishy-washy non-story fun-slasher game called Kage / Shadow of the Ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqxlpSp9uOo). The story didn't take a genius -- some galactic emperor decided to enslave Earth, so we needed Ninjas to kick his ass, and we totally did -- but the gameplay itself had enough atmosphere to make your imagination go wild with the kinds of stories that could take place here. The result? The action-packed game was a hit! Eventually Tecmo got the publishing rights to it on Gameboy, and they eventually turned it into a Ninja Gaiden spinoff and integrated the atmosphere within the main franchise.
But if having the idea purchased by a corporation sounds far-fetched, how about the story-line for Street Fighter 4? With all the multiple characters and their struggles, the story eventually became one hell of a challenge, despite the simpler setting of "characters join a tournament to save the world". But it all started off with this weird game which only had one playable character (unless you choose Player-2 controller which automatically gives you Ken with the same moves as Ryu) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNTUNSUvYw), but eventually became successful enough with its idea and became a standard for every fighting game ever. The game only had one story: win the tournament and kick Sagat's ass. Eventually the grudge between Sagat and Ryu would go on to be in-depth character development for later games.
So that's my idea: Start small, so we can get something achieved. But don't restrain your imaginations just yet, because what you propose right now might just became a game-changing event in time. (ZING!) The game-play mechanics or any idea that's innovative could be made in while still keeping our production achievable. I mean, look at the hit Indie game called Limbo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irBwfZ8iAYU) -- it started off simple, just one playable character in one simple setting. The game began with one innovative idea that financed the developers enough to help them begin with a second, even better game. Oh, and the studio that made the game only consist of two people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playdead) (though of course, they needed the grants from elsewhere to help finance the development of even this simple game).
And don't even get me started on Angry Birds!
The best way we can achieve something is by targeting the mobile markets currently, probably along with consoles.
So then we get back to topic.
Why don't we take a bit of inspiration from Radical Dreamers? It would be a simpler endeavour, combined with Lennis MGS gameplay suggestion, along with stealth of thieves. We could somehow have time travel into the midst. What do you think?
Tell Serge that he's actually his old man before he kills him--now that would be interesting.
(Serge about to destroy Lynx)
Lynx: "I... I am your father!"
Serge: ".....Nnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
-
I don't think Lynx's character was handled badly. I think it's an important point that his motives were shady and not recognized until later in the story, but I'll admit a lot of Chrono Cross was vague and confusing (which is why the majority didn't connect with it as well as CT, which wasn't so confusing). Your first encounter with him? He poisons the girl you're quickly beginning to love as a character. The second encounter? He STEALS you body, then stabs her again. Then he turns her against you.
Those are dramatic events that create a lot of animosity against his character, while still weaving that mystery about his character. Whether the final reveal could have been handled a little better or not, I don't think it much detracts from his CHARACTER, it simply convolutes a story that could have been a little bit clearer.
And I talked about the Dragon God, I just called it the Time Devourer, which I suppose it is not. My error.
Why don't we take a bit of inspiration from Radical Dreamers? It would be a simpler endeavour, combined with Lennis MGS gameplay suggestion, along with stealth of thieves. We could somehow have time travel into the midst. What do you think?
Not a bad idea at all. As much as I love Radical Dreamers, though, we'd need to make it significantly less... weird.
-
I'm going to through this out there...
I had mentioned the concept before, but what if time was a fatalistic structure? Akin to the film 12 Monkey's, one cannot change time; attempts to do so are merely creating the pre-exiting timeline. What if one wanted to change the very nature of time-space dynamics? What would like that look like? How would that work?
My story is a tale of family. Of two brothers: one of which becomes lost in time, and one that searches desperately to find him. Traveling through time, making friends and enemies along the way, our young hero Blue Cervantes learns what it is to lose everything and how loss connects us all. The main villain ends up being a version of Blue from the future, and Blue unknowingly visits upon various moments of his own future. Only by using the powers of the Blue Singularity and destroying the Chains of Fate can Blue penultimately defy fate and end the predestination that haunts mankind.
EDIT: I just realized that there's nearly a page of posts behind me. I need to catch up on my reading and see what you all are talking about...
:)
EDIT 2: Removing my synopsis. I'm going to keep this concept to myself.
-
Really, CT only works because Lavos is treated as a force of nature. If they'd tried to make it work as a character, they would have ended up with Final Fantasy V, whose weakest point is its antagonist.
Yeah, Ex-Death really made me cringe. That might be why Final Fantasy V wasn't released in the US until much later. Four's Golbez was a much more interesting villain, and Six's Kefka knocked it out of the park. In fact, I'm inclined to compare Kefka to The Joker. Appearances aside, the two villains share many of the same qualities. Perhaps that was intended.
In talking about Chrono antagonists, I'm surprised no one has brought up Queen Zeal. Sure, she's just a thrall of Lavos, and maybe that's why we should hate her. The original game never made clear if the Queen simply gave in to a lust for power, or whether she was just too weak to resist Lavos' influence. Either way, Crono "dies" because of her.
My view of Lynx is that he wasn't handled very well. Yes, a villain needs to do things that make you hate him, but if you can't understand even a fraction of his motives over the course of a narrative without resorting to a wall-of-text after it ceases to matter, then the character is ineffective as an antagonist. Lynx is more like Lavos in the way he is portrayed: a force of nature that does bad things simply because. But Lynx clearly isn't the mindless monster Lavos was, so the player has a disconnect. They expect more and get less.
On the subject of gaming platforms, mobile would seem to be the way to go, but I advise caution. The market is experiencing a huge bubble in Japan, and I've heard rumors that it may be on the verge of popping. Anyone going all-in on the promise of mobile is likely to lose his shirt. As they say: "Diversify, diversify." Mobile isn't going away, but the smart play is to wait and see how the market corrects itself before making a commitment.
-
@Alfador, allow me to illustrate:
What gives something a Star Wars feel? Is it having Luke, Leia, and Han in it? Certainly not, as the X-Wing series of books proves. Is it having the plucky rebels fight against the dark empire? Certainly not, as I, Jedi proves. What makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars is the setting.
What gives something a Lord of the Rings feel? Is it having Sam, Legolas, and Gandalf in it? If so, then about half of each book loses that feel (and certainly the Hobbit and Silmarillion fail). Is it about lone fighters standing against a dark tyrant? Again, no, because of the other LOTR-like texts out there. It's Middle Earth and the fantasy meets history aspect (well, really, a secondary world history crafted in such a way as to be mistakable for a primary world psuedo-history).
The setting is often what gives something a particular feel. Not always, of course. What makes a heist story or a romance feel like a heist story or a romance? The plot. What makes literary fiction feel like literary fiction? The characters.
As for ideas, write them down, examine them to make sure that it isn't actually a solution to a problem you've been having with the current project, and if not, keep the idea for later use. No, not all ideas will see the light of day, but that is just because ideas are cheap. If you make a habit of writing down ideas, and also consciously developing your creativity, you'll always have more than even jumping from project to project can satisfy.
@Acacia, Lavos wasn't evil. It was just trying to survive and breed.
Regarding villains, there are two types and they serve very different purposes in a story. The Dark Lord (think Sauron) is great for removing moral dilemmas and making for cool stories, but they can never be shown on the page, as it were. Those villains are less a person and more of a force of (or against) nature. When you write that sort of story, it isn't a man v man conflict, it's man v nature. The relatable villain, though (think Smeagol) can be represented on the page, is very human (the hero of their own story, actually), brings up moral dilemmas. This allows us to have a man v man or man v self conflict. A common difference between the hero and villain in modern storytelling is that the hero overcomes their own flaws, while an antagonist succumbs to them.
CT has both the Dark Lord and relatable villain (Lavos and Magus, as Alfador pointed out). CC had Fate and Harle (Lynx was never relatable, alas).
You're totally misunderstanding me. I never suggested that having an antagonist who is being evil just to be evil. That's just weak writing.
You just dissed Tolkien.
Actually, you didn't just diss LOTR, you also insulted Star Wars, Firefly, Avengers, Indiana Jones, Beowulf, Harry Potter, and generally a huge chunk of beloved and classical human literature.
Not either type of villain will work for every type of story. That doesn’t make one stronger or weaker than the other, nor is one indicative of stronger or weaker writing. Indeed, a strong writer will use one or the other as appropriate in the story, not conforming story to a prejudgment.
As for the hated antagonist, the protagonists do need an emotional investment in the story (only Magus in CT really had this), but that emotion doesn't have to be hate, nor even directed at the antagonist. There are so many other emotions, all powerful, and so many goals. Often, stories (the kind that never make it to market) fail because the protagonists only ever react to the villain. Ideally, the protagonists should have a goal, something that they are passionate about, and the antagonist is the roadblock. They can have as much emotion attached to them as a wall and still work.
For example, Magus is passionately driven to find Schala. That’s a beautiful plot set up right there, and we don’t need a hated villain to cloud it, although to make a story interesting, we do need antagonists (antagonists and villains are themselves different things).
@Tush, I said setting was most important for giving the game a CT feel to it. Nothing more, nothing less.
-
@Thought: Actually, in Tolkien's case, the "feel" for me comes largely from his use of language, as far as I can tell. Which explains why Michael Scott Rohan's The Winter of the World feels more like Tolkien to me than the LotR movies do (well, that and the bowdlerized characterizations made me hate the movies with a passion). Feel is highly subjective, which may be why no one here can agree on what makes Chrono Trigger what it is.
With respect to creativity, I think you're again making the mistake of generalizing from your experience to someone else's. It doesn't work. If writing your ideas down works for you, more power to you. For me, and for a lot of other people I've encountered, writing them down in an undeveloped or summary form is like pinning insect specimens: it kills them.
Overall, this conversation seems to be bogging down at about the same level I expected it to: lots of people have ideas, but no one's willing to get behind anyone else's.
-
One of the things that I think helps fanfic writers come together is the presence of constraints. The fanfic *has* to conform to certain facts, so there's a basis for amicable agreement out-of-the-box. Since canon is out the window here, the community might find it helpful to establish more constraints. At least everyone agrees that time travel will feature heavily.
Skimming the thread, I think Nangbaby has an interesting point: should the story come before the gameplay systems, or should it be the other way around? If you treat the gameplay systems first, then that should add some parameters that the story must conform to. As an example: rather than let the presence of a futuristic era in the story guide the decision to have a jetbike race, let the desire for a jetbike race guide your decision to include a futuristic era. I appreciate that there are many ways this could go wrong, of course.
The aforementioned idea of beginning with an extremely limited micro project is also worth serious consideration IMO. I tend to see this as the best option if the community wants to produce something that actually sees the light of day in a reasonable time frame. So what's a cool concept for a minigame that centers on time travel? Make that, and upon further reflection, we might realize the minigame was just the training mission for the antagonist who appears in the full story, or something.
Take Canabalt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTILjc2sOJM) as an illustration to add to the ones tushantin already mentioned. It's a very narrow game, but man, it's packed with so much atmosphere I'm dying to know more about the world. You could totally, totally make a grand RPG follow-up to something like that.
-
What makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars is the setting.
You'd have won your argument if you ended it there, but then you went ahead and said...
What makes a heist story or a romance feel like a heist story or a romance? The plot.
....which makes you fall face-first. Plot doesn't make romance, and plot alone doesn't make heist. Even if you took the setting and plot and threw it in the bin when it comes to Romance, the characters would create the world, the setting and the plot based on their own personalities and disposition, because ultimately it's all about relations between characters, and how those relations and choices eventually create plot. Plot doesn't dictate people falling for one another; interaction between characters does. In which case, creating vivid and memorable characters is always paramount.
However, that's not to say that the relations between characters and settings is a one-way-street. Even if it's the characters that create the setting, and not vice versa, in many occasions it's the settings that influence the characters' development.
Having written heist stories before, I think the same goes for that too. However, in case of Heists, there's much trade between plot and characters compared to Romance and Drama. Settings are easy to come by, but what drives the story is not the plot, but the characters. See, the best characters that retain in the audience's minds are not those governed by the plot but those that govern the plot. Which is why really great stories begin to take a life of their own when you start writing them despite a good outline; and that's a fairly good thing.
But Lynx clearly isn't the mindless monster Lavos was, so the player has a disconnect.
The fact that Lavos was capable of flying through space-time, devour planets, dabble in human genomes, build dungeons, create intelligence in the form of a rock, etc. would state sufficiently that Lavos was anything but mindless. In fact, Lavos was to us as Lucca was to a mayfly. Due to the large intelligence gap, besides the lessened intelligence of FF, there's just no proper means of contact. The mayflies, or even the bacteria in our own belly, wouldn't really get what we try to communicate with them, and they'll simply pass us for "involuntary movement of the earth, probably an earthquake or something". And we? We'd happily dissect them just to study them.
I think the same goes for Lavos. The shell of Lavos was nothing more than a complex organic space-time ship and computer that could be artificially grown, all done by the true Humanoid Lavos that was inside -- and that Lavos was the core Scientist of its species.
But I get what you mean: Because there was no intelligence contact between the species, the audience would then simply take Lavos' reaction as mindless because they could neither relate to it nor make sense of it (as almost everyone does in my locality when I ramble in techno-babble).
It doesn't work. If writing your ideas down works for you, more power to you. For me, and for a lot of other people I've encountered, writing them down in an undeveloped or summary form is like pinning insect specimens: it kills them.
Hah, I've heard that advice before too, and it's a really splendid one! Interestingly, I've gotten into the habit of trusting myself, my creativity and aptitude, rather than moaning my forgetfulness as I used to. Why? Because it then trains my impulses, my instincts, to be able to intelligently imagine on-demand and at the same time be able to pick the best ideas out there (and if it doesn't work, I always ask someone or do something to stimulate my creativity).
What this brings to mind is how we got into a bad habit of treating ideas in the first place: While it's true that the best "Eureka" moment comes to us when we daydream rather than force ourselves to think, as much as it's an awesome idea, jotting them immediately does tend to kill whatever's in the back-seat at the time and ready to roll to you, and eventually the idea you had stagnates. I've then made it my business to allow my muses to flow, try to soak in what I thought, and let it settle into contemplation until I get the big picture -- and not rush into writing every piece I get and end up being disorganized. And when I'm finally ready... I write / work to my heart's content, without stopping, because I instinctively know where I'm going.
Which again brings to mind, Alfador, that your approach to such treatment of ideas is much of a healthy cognitive training in itself, allowing imagination to harmonize with the critical prefrontal tendencies -- rather than have them conflict and weigh you down. I'm half-wondering if it's your programming experience that developed that kind of ideology, because it's freaking convenient when it comes to creative thinking.
But I do think that Thought has a point: Whether it's at earlier stages or later, the act of writing anything alone -- whether or not you intend to look at it later -- will help your thoughts retain in memory. In fact, it also helps in your creative process when things are right in front of you and you needn't rely much on your working-memory to remember details long-term, and hence focus your mental energy into evaluation of story alone. This I usually relate with the analytical approach rather than plainly creative, though.
But here's where I unify both methods: I follow the Doctor Who script-writing scenario. Throw in fancy words and elements, and trust yourself to figure out what happens later. This is incredibly convenient for Mystery writing especially. xD
Overall, this conversation seems to be bogging down at about the same level I expected it to: lots of people have ideas, but no one's willing to get behind anyone else's.
The aforementioned idea of beginning with an extremely limited micro project is also worth serious consideration IMO. I tend to see this as the best option if the community wants to produce something that actually sees the light of day in a reasonable time frame. So what's a cool concept for a minigame that centers on time travel? Make that, and upon further reflection, we might realize the minigame was just the training mission for the antagonist who appears in the full story for example.
Okay then, enough arguments. Time for business!
How's this for a game idea:
How about multiple relatable characters in a Viewtiful Joe like gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALt4yu1Njk8), but with time travel?
And here's the twist: the relatable protagonists are actually the bad guys of the sequel (if the first game gets successful enough to finance the sequel) who were training enough to give the real protagonists a hard time?
Hmm!!
....
THIS SOUNDS LIKE THE GAME IDEA I ACTUALLY PROPOSED TO A COMPANY ONLY A WEEK AGO. O_O
I could totally ditch what I pitched if everyone's interested in helping make this, though. :) I have the perfect story for this too.
-
Well, even a complex fighting game like Viewtiful Joe may be biting off more than is chewable. I would suggest constricting the project even more. Like, *way* more. Let me propose these parameters and see what everyone thinks:
1. The project should include only one human/humanoid character that needs complex animation.
2. Other in-game objects are simple shapes that one artist, working for free in his or her spare time, can churn out in a month or two.
3. Environment art should be limited to what one artist, working for free in his or her spare time, could produce in a month or two. As a corollary, the enviro art should be sufficient to establish a cool world that piques the player's curiosity.
4. The game needs between one and five deadly-addictive killer tunes as background music. Or whatever a talented, up-and-coming composer could churn out in a month or two, out of the sheer goodness of his or her heart.
5. The gameplay style should be a logic game that uses a clever time travel element as the major gameplay mechanic/surprise.
6. For programming needs, the community selects a representative to contact lesser-known game design schools and offer the project up as an unpaid summer internship. This is after the game design document and assets are settled. Then it's released as a free download on platforms where there are zero or negligible distribution costs. Free distribution may be worth the sacrifice if it gets enough players and ratings to earn the project some clout.
The project goals being:
A.) Establish one recognizable character.
B.) Establish a world, and perhaps its eras or environments.
C.) Establish a time travel mechanic and theory that has the potential to create conflict, or has some other ramifications when applied to a wider story.
D.) Arm all those involved with a complete project to hang their hats on.
Probably feels like a suckerpunch to everyone who was hoping for a giant, sweeping project right out of the gate, but maybe more within the realm of possibility. This is just some food for thought; feel free to devour it or toss it in the garbage disposal, as I think I'll need to sit this one out for sheer lack of time.
-
The aforementioned idea of beginning with an extremely limited micro project is also worth serious consideration IMO.
Brilliant, on numerous levels. Not only does it provide a proof of ability to the market, it shows potential talent that the team is serious, and it starts building a fan base.
For the game itself, I feel "The Company of Myself" might be a place to look for inspiration. It doesn't involve time travel, but I think the applicants of it to the game are fairly straight forward. In fact, let's assign homework: everyone go over to kongregate or some other website, find a fun short game that seems like a fresh approach to something, then come back and tell us about it.
@Alfador, Tolkien's a bit of an odd case because he wrote so little outside of Middle Earth. Because of that, it's very easy to confuse the Tolkien feel for the Middle Earth feel, although some of his other work (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, for example) feels like a Tolkien book but not a Middle Earth one.
As for creativity, I'm honored you think I relating that from my own experience, but no. I got that from seven separate but highly successful professional authors (well, eight, but I can't remember the name of the 8th). These are: Michael Stackpole, David Farland, Orson Scott Card, Brandon Sanderson, Dan Wells, Howard Taylor, and Mary Robinette Kowal. Developing ideas later is not a matter of subjective personal experience, it is simply how it is done. To be fair, brainstorming, creativity, and inspiration are skills that have to be developed. If you haven't developed them yet, that says nothing about what you can do and what will work for you, only about what you haven't done yet.
Regarding the lack of anyone taking a lead, aye, you're spot on there.
...which makes you fall face-first. Plot doesn't make romance, and plot alone doesn't make heist.
First, plot does make romance, but it looks like your romantic tendencies are making you miss that (different uses of "romance" here, by the way). Romance books are all very formulaic, down to what has to happen on what page. That's one of the reason that the romance genre gets so little respect. The characters and setting are entirely interchangeable (and that interchangeability is what allows the romance genre to function as a viable market: a book is 95% familiar and 5% new). I wouldn't be surprised if there is a niche romance market out there for what you described, but that's a niche market, not the genre at present.
As an aside, the paranormal romance genre is different than the romance genre and plot is less important (while setting is more so).
Second, for heist, you'll note I didn't say that plot alone makes it. Indeed, you will note that I have been discussing the key element that defines a feel, not the only element. That said, there are two main components to a heist story. The heist itself (which is often formulated as a mystery: not a "who dun it," but rather a "how'd they do it") and the team of experts. But the team of experts itself plays into what each of their role in the plot itself is. What drives a heist is that mystery, not the characters (which isn't to say that the characters aren't important: again, I am talking about key elements for a feel, not only elements for that feel). That is why Mistborn: The Final Empire doesn't feel like a heist story: the characters and setting overshadow the plot, giving it a different feel.
While it's true that the best "Eureka" moment comes to us when we daydream rather than force ourselves to think...
And by "true" you mean "false" ;)
At its best, the "eureka moment" is what cause idea collapse: suddenly that moment of inspiration causes eight or ten disparate ideas that you've been working on to collapse, come together, and start working brilliantly (like a star). But no, the eureka ideas are never as good as the ones we force ourselves to think of. The reason for this is that the eureka ideas are our first reaction. Because they are our first reaction, they're also going to be the reader's first reaction. If we put down on the page exactly what the reader expects, why are they reading us in the first place?
You want to come up with the first idea, discard that, then the second idea, discard that, the third idea, discard THAT, and when you get around to the fifth or sixth, then you're finally in business. That fifth idea wont be coming unless you are specifically putting effort into refining things, though.
... jotting them immediately does tend to kill whatever's in the back-seat at the time and ready to roll to you, and eventually the idea you had stagnates.
I think if you take a closer objective look at what's happening, you'll see that's not quite what is happening.
Writing down an idea does do something: it gets it out of your head so that you stop thinking about it. In turn, that opens up your head for MORE ideas. There is a sweat spot for when to do that, but it is always fairly early on. You can tell when that moment comes based on when you find yourself thinking about the same aspect over and over. That's useless behavior, THAT's stagnation.
When you put an idea on the page, your mind then has room for more ideas, which you then need to fit to the idea that's on the page. Let's say that you get the idea for a great climax. That's well and good, but you wont get the ideas for all the components you need to pull it off until you get that climax out of your head so that the other scenes and aspects can flood in.
Ideas stagnate in your head, not on the page, because no matter how brilliant you are, you can't hold everything in your head that you need to. Ideas come to life on the page because you can continuously add to them and infuse them with increasing levels of awesomeness. If you find this isn't to your experience, I suggest that something else is going on, and then the onus is on your to examine truthfully and figure out why it isn't working for you. It might just be simply a skill you haven't developed yet.
-
Thought, the real problem is that you're coming across as a patronizing prescriptivist jerk, which I hope was not your intention. I'm not some high school kid; I'm aware that there are processes unlike my own. I've tried some of them, and for me, they do not work. Most of the pros that I've encountered (Patricia C. Wrede, Charlie Stross, Mary Gentle, Alma Alexander, Jo Walton...) agree that process is personal, and that there's nothing that's guaranteed to work for everyone.
And now I'm going to duck out of here for twenty-four hours, because this kind of discussion does not combine well with being both clinically depressed and seriously conflict-averse. My meds can only handle so much.
-
I am sorry that you believe I am being patronizing and jerkish, Alfador. That was certainly not my intent. Unfortunately I am not a charismatic individual: when I try to write encouragement, I can see how it would come across in the opposite. Perhaps it might help you to understand how I see the back and forth.
You were saying that something was beyond your abilities (namely, that if an idea is on paper, it dies and you can do nothing about that). My response was essentially that it wasn't beyond your abilities: you are good enough that no idea need remain dead. You have the ability and the talent to make the deadest idea come to life. Personally, I don't see it as jerkish to think that someone is capable of more than they think they are capable of.
Also, if you have a chance to talk to those authors again, they'll all agree that there are several things that work for everyone: writing more, working hard to make yourself better as a writer, revising, going on to the next project, etc. If you can't write an idea down without it dying, how can you ever revise? If you never revise, a story wont be as good as you are able to make it.
As for ideas: again, you can say that putting ideas on paper kills them for you. And again, I will say that you are good enough to make them live despite that.
All in all, I see it as a very uplifting and encouraging message: I am sorry if it is not coming across that way.
EDIT: Having researched the authors you mentioned, Alfador, I see that they all hold to the same stance as the one's I mentioned. Indeed, a few of them expressed extreme credulity at the prospect of someone claiming to the otherwise. As such, since you say that you're familiar with their perspectives, it might be a communication problem is at the heart of the issue.
-
No offense to anyone here, but we're going nowhere with the conversation. Story, plot, characters, and writing in general are extremely versatile and faceless things. Argue till you're blue in the face that there are RIGHT ways and WRONG ways, because there are always things that are going to work better, hit harder, while others fall on their faces, but in the end, it's a subject that can be argued over until the stars go out.
What's happening right now is basically:
This is how it should be done.
No, this is how it should be done.
You guys have some good ideas, but you're both wrong about this and this.
No, sorry, in the nicest way possible, I'm smarter than you.
Actually you're not, because this vague, abstract concept you're speaking of is slightly wrong, hence totally wrong, hence I am right.
And so on and so forth. I'm not innocent or absent from that either.
I know that no one here is purposely trying to be a jerk or insist that their way is the only way, but unfortunately with extensive debates like this focusing on subjects that even the "pros" argue themselves (don't even start the story/plot snafu), it's not hard to come across as a know-it-all ass. The important thing is to put our heads together and focus on compromise, even on subjects that you hold very dear, to achieve a cohesive end result (or hell, even get started). No movie, video game, novel, or any creative product is perfect. Creating something purely via one's own thinking will give you a flawed result. Creating something via a group's thinking will... also create a flawed result. The important thing is that we work together to create a result in the first place. After all is said and done, if the end product isn't amazing, it's still a better than nothing. And I'm not saying "Make something crappy just because", I'm only encouraging more focus, more cooperation, more compromise.
Put simply, if any of us are "right" in our individual arguments, congratulations, but it doesn't matter. Moving on now.
-
I haven't been able to say much (been out of town, still am), but at this point I think we should really follow Thought's idea for homework.
Go online and find a short game to play, something new and unheard of. Take note of fresh ideas and concepts. Tell the Compendium, play another game, etc.
I'd say more but I'm out of time.
-
No offense to anyone here, but we're going nowhere with the conversation. Story, plot, characters, and writing in gen
I know that no one here is purposely trying to be a jerk or insist that their way is the only way, but unfortunately with extensive debates like this focusing on subjects that even the "pros" argue themselves (don't even start the story/plot snafu), it's not hard to come across as a know-it-all ass. The important thing is to put our heads together and focus on compromise, even on subjects that you hold very dear, to achieve a cohesive end result (or hell, even get started). No movie, video game, novel, or any creative product is perfect. Creating something purely via one's own thinking will give you a flawed result. Creating something via a group's thinking will... also create a flawed result. The important thing is that we work together to create a result in the first place. After all is said and done, if the end product isn't amazing, it's still a better than nothing. And I'm not saying "Make something crappy just because", I'm only encouraging more focus, more cooperation, more compromise.
Put simply, if any of us are "right" in our individual arguments, congratulations, but it doesn't matter. Moving on now.
Good point. MOVING ON NOW...
Let's say we were to simplify Viewtiful Joe gameplay, but with time-travel. Here's how we'd begin:
Story: (Source: Wikipedia) "Edison sold candy and newspapers on trains running from Port Huron to Detroit, and sold vegetables to supplement his income. He also studied qualitative analysis, and conducted chemical experiments on the train until an accident prohibited further work of the kind. Edison obtained the exclusive right to sell newspapers on the road, and, with the aid of four assistants, he set in type and printed the Grand Trunk Herald, which he sold with his other papers.[11] This began Edison's long streak of entrepreneurial ventures, as he discovered his talents as a businessman. These talents eventually led him to found 14 companies, including General Electric, which is still one of the largest publicly traded companies in the world."
An aspiring economist named Tobias Edison believes that the world weighs down upon him and he can't move further to accomplish his dreams, and perhaps experienced events in his childhood that gave him the Freudian Excuse to do stuff that makes the gameplay and game-mechanics. Now, Edison decides to go on an espionage mission to steal patents and acquire intellectual properties that may make him rich (and powerful) beyond his wildest dreams.
(Yes, feel free to laugh at that)
Gameplay: It's fairly 2D (but can use 3D models and environs, like Bad Piggies did), resembling a Platformer. The navigation could either be much like Dark Avenger (Android game), or Gesture-based -- not unlike Angry Birds, but where sliding across Edison and target would make him "travel" there. Edison starts off with just a few abilities at first -- probably even just one -- but as he passes each stage and beats bosses, not to mention steal patents, he gains more abilities to make use of. Some of these abilities can be blinding people with a light-bulb (much like how the Men in Black do it), lighting up dark passages with the same device, sending messages across maps (perhaps to Graham Bell?), creating "illusory substitutes" or clones via Movie Projection device, Magnetic powers (let your imagination fly there), syphoning enemies / money / patents via a vacuum apparatus, creating batteries to power giant mechs (why the heck not?), etc. We have no limits! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Edison_patents) At some point in the game, Edison may even have power over Copyright and may be able to "summon" Law Enforcements to help him in his battles (AI's that travel with Edison everywhere for a limited time).
Since Edison is an anti-hero of the story, his antagonists would range a myriad, such as good people (like Da Vinci) and evil people (like Graham Bell, Edison's "Just-as-evil Twin").
But wait: you ask "where is Time Travel" here? Here's the thing -- Edison is not unlike Magus from CT, and would go on a cut-throat adventure to seek patents for Time Travel, so that he could... er... save his hypothetical sister from a hypothetical scarlet fever / tuberculosis? Anyway, he realizes that Nick Tesla was once visited by a Time Traveller called "Einstein", and wonders if Tesla got his hands on some information regarding that invention. At the end of the story, the final "dungeon" passed, he realizes that Tesla wasn't given the information and patent on paper. That information was right in his mind, like almost every blueprint of his inventions. In order to get that information, Edison must beat the final boss Tesla and extract the information (with the patent of "feather-tickle torture") before Tesla erases the info from his mind. (Time limit battle)
Goal: To be filthy rich and rule the world. And possibly save some hypothetical sister.
EDIT: Character Design!
(http://i.imgur.com/WvXIeoF.jpg)
-
That looks suspiciously like a sonic screwdriver...
Anywho, I took a look at two games (Vulpine Adventures, Outernauts), partially because they are quasi-pokemon re-imaginings (and I have fond memories of when the series was new), but also because CTDS had quasi-pokemon elements.
Outernauts is really just pokemon in space, although quite fun, partially because enemies are visible on the world map, you get a nice level of customization (dress up your character, decorate your home world, and not only can you affect your creature's stats, you also can affect traits that will determine how they grow).
Vulpine Adventures focuses more on a single creature and it's development, with equipment. Both are fun, though outernauts has a lot to it, while Vulpine can be beat in a half hour.
The separation of player v battler also got me thinking about Final Fantasy: My Life as King. In that game you're the king of a town. You design it, build it up, and send heroes on quests (they bring back the stuff you need to expand the town further).
So I tried to think of how to smash those together with CT and Time Travel (since TT is a key element of CT feel, I wanted to make sure it was specifically addressed in my thoughts, hence why it's not just a mashup between the games and CT). The end result was something I'll call "The End of Time: The Video Game."
A short little adventure about a future historian/scientists who attempts to craft a device that can look through time (to put historical debates to rest: gee, can you tell that I'm a historian?). Device goes wrong, opens up a time portal, and sucks him to the End of Time. To return home (Quantum Leap reference?) he has to change time so that his experiment never went wrong (yeah, paradox, but this is a game, so that's okay). I'm imagining he does this via the use of tiny time portals (too small for him to fit through) and temporal goo native to the place that responds to his thoughts (thus, becomes alive).
The game would focus on sending this goo on missions via the portals to change the past (giving us mini story-lines: what if the french revolution didn't go guillotine happy, what if Trotsky, not Stalin, came to power?). While the goo is on a mission, the player goes around and build up a home in the end of time, so then be able to access later missions.
That's, of course, a first pass at the idea: as I've said, to get to something really great, one has to drill down a few layers to the originality. But perhaps this can be mashed up with yet something else.
EDIT: Instead of real world history, I could see a somewhat philosophical game develop on affecting one's own personal timeline.
-
So.... Nobody wants to get jiggy with Tobias Edison?
....So, more cake for me then?
-
Well, to try to spark further discussion, perhaps a humorous take on your idea? Instead of "cool" inventions, T.E. keeps getting the bottom of the barrel stuff, like hair in a can (acts like a disguise, letting T.E. sneak by foes), parachute pants/jackets (let's him fall from great heights), bump-its (lets him break blocks, Mario-style), or Chia Pets (summons a chia familiar to attack enemies).
-
There are some really cool, interesting ideas floating around. On their own, as a gamer, I'd definitely give them a whirl.
Unfortunately, I'm not getting the Chrono vibe. At all. We started this whole brainstorming session in the hopes of first, reinventing Crimson Echoes, and then moved onto a grander objective, creating a spiritual successor to the Chrono series. Thomas Edison and little blobs of goo and whatnot are awesome. Very interesting ideas. But I'm sorry, nothing about them says Chrono. There are loads of stories with time traveling in them. Does that make them feel like the Chrono series? Does Doctor Who (as much as I love it to death) feel like the Chrono series? No, not at all. Time travel =/= Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross.
I realize we aren't making something exactly like the Chrono games. Totally understand that. But it really feels like these ideas are traveling into totally different realms that have nearly nothing in common with the Chrono series. Now I'm not trying to jump in and say "All these ideas are junk, here's my better idea", but rather I'm just trying to steer the ideas in a much more Chrono...y direction.
Okay, brainstorming, you (the protagonist) wake up in a small, modern looking town. You're a young teenage girl with flowing lava red hair and a knack for martial arts and swordplay (we've gotta pay some homage to a certain red-headed swordsman). While the setting looks modern, lets say that technology in your time is still very limited (limited electricity, no firearms/or only muskets and the like, no big cities, town guards and such to keep monsters in the wildernesses away, etc). The protagonist has somewhere to be, a festival, a concert, a fencing competition, I don't care. It would just be somewhere a good amount of people are. While you're there, a young man around your age in fairly odd clothes befriends you, and before you know it, you're whisked through time and space to his era (a much more medieval settings, with knights and wizards and goblins, etc). He explains to you that time is damaged. People and places in his time have been disappearing, and before long, the realm will be in a state of chaos and anarchy (perhaps he took drastic measures and pulled you into his efforts because members of the royal family have been disappearing). He carries an artifact that allows him to traverse the time lanes (he can't choose where he wants to go, he can just travel through time rifts), which brought him to your time. Unfortunately, that rift has since closed, and you have no way of getting home (perhaps you have a personality as fiery as your hair, and this creates a love-hate relationship with the young man). Why did he choose you? Maybe this isn't clear, I'll leave holes on purpose because this is a pretty barebones idea, I'd love for people to fill in the blanks.
What happens from here? I think it would be a cool game mechanic to find time rifts near where people and places have gone missing. You travel into the past, fix what's broken, and the jump back when they're resolved to admire your handiwork (some of these could be vital to the story, some could be sidequests that help people and families, repair civilized areas, nature, etc, for rewards). Now, through your trips through time, you come across a mysterious cloaked figure who tries to thwart your efforts. He's clearly not a good guy, because you're trying to bring people back from the bowels of time and restore their rightful place, while he wishes them dead. Is all of this because of him? Further into the story, maybe the king or queen dies suddenly? It comes out that the time traveling young man is actually the prince. He's completely convinced that time is damaged and the king/queen's death must be changed in time. You fight to change things and succeed... but in doing so, you alter a key event in the planet's history. Time retaliates and tries to correct itself, leading to the very rifts you worked so hard to repair, perhaps even further damage, and you're hurled into another, completely unknown era with no way back (maybe the prince's artifact is damage or lost). All along, perhaps the cloaked man was trying to let the time rifts persist because they were time's way of compensating for the damage you caused through saving the king/queen, and now that you restored them AND irrevocably damaged time, the world is plunged into darkness and destruction.
All of this idea is open to "construction", but especially what happens after this. I could see perhaps that the twisted shell of the world after this point leads to that king/queen who was supposed to die living on, and becoming a powerful, evil tyrant (perhaps this would have happened anyways, hence why they were meant to die, and perhaps it was the cloaked figure who killed them in the true timeline and the prince saw this). Your goal at this point in the game is to kill the very overlord you thought once saved, and in killing them, are able to restore time to its natural balance. And it's sort of thrown in there, but I think it would be interesting for the prince to actually be from another time, sent to his resident era for an unknown reason, carrying the artifact that allows him to travel through time, when he was a baby. Why? I don't know, this whole story is open to construction, new reasoning, etc.
And like I said, I'm not set on saying "My idea is best", and I'm inviting people to take it apart, smash it, and put it back together. The point I'm trying to get at is creating a world and storyline that really feels akin to the Chrono series. I think this general idea could really hit on that mark, and wouldn't be something that is all that difficult to MAKE as a game (I really think it should be a classic RPG like Chrono Trigger as far as gameplay goes).
Any ideas? Pleeease chop this thing up and put it back together. 8)
-
Unfortunately, I'm not getting the Chrono vibe. At all.
Unfortunately, based on FaustWolf's idea, we can't hope to accomplish bigger projects at our first go, so we'll have to start small and can't afford larger and more ambitious plots. Tobias Edison is actually a small starter game that will eventually expand into a larger, Chrono-themed storyline. But I won't tell you why just yet. :wink:
As FaustWolf explains it, "Focusing on the inventor of time travel could be interesting; it would almost be like Chrono Trigger starring Lucca." Though, ironically, I actually modelled Tobias after Magus / Janus, even though he has Lucca-esq traits.
Your story idea gets interesting in the second-half explanation! Though the first half lost me... while I get the homage to Crono bit, I think the beginning only seems to be a mashing-up of CT and Doctor Who (which you'd agree as something even more restraining than my previous suggestion of Crimson Echoes remake). But let's say we develop on that anyway: how do you intend to adapt it into a simple game that's not as complex as CT, but still has a similar flair?
Just a simple request to everyone participating in the brainstorming session: Use a short-format for your pitches as I've done, and you'd find it not only easier to structure and explain much with few words alone, but also make it enjoyable for everyone to run their imaginations with a bit of stimulus. Something like what I did in my first post:
Inspiration Source: (Optional) Where did you get this idea and why?
Pitch (Story): Two to Three sentences only (four or five only in dire cases, but not more). Doesn't have to be perfect, but enough to explain the central concepts.
Platform targets (Optional): Two sentences should be fine.
Gameplay: Feel free to make this a short paragraph. But only one paragraph (two only if it's really important).
Misc Data: Another paragraph or two to explain the overall.
So based on this format, I can (with a bit of idea editing) summarize your pitch as follows:
A Red-Haired swordsman happens to attend the Dragon Fair at Turn-of-the-Century China and meets a dashing / ugly young man, with whom she accidentally finds herself falling through time (Fushigi Yuugi, anyone? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwo02McRs68)). Stranded 600 hundred, her knowledge of history (and unique clothing and speech style) make her seem as a Prophet or an eccentric witch, until she realizes that Time itself has become unstable and people are beginning to vanish without explanation. With the help of her friend, she must not only try to set things right and fix the disturbances in Time, but also survive and find her way back to the Dragon Fair where her family awaits. Otherwise *SPOILERS* she'll end up like Amy Pond.
The Gameplay is much like what I described in the Tobias Edison post, but with a tiny bit of difference: the gesture platformer will also help you travel back-and-forth in time, changing the elements in the levels and at the same time influence your gameplay. Instead of the Epoch, we can use a magical artefact (acquired in the middle or late in the game) that can help you "Time Jump" between eras, but only to a limited scale, as you'll need to recharge in between.
Which brings me to a criminally overlooked game with a story of vengeance...
[youtube]SW7AOmKJR6Y[/youtube]
-
Eh, I don't see the Doctor Who vibe in my suggestion. Chrono Trigger has even more of a Doctor Who vibe in my opinion with Lucca, who's got that quirky Doctor quality about her, and is the one who gets you fired through time in the first place.
But like I said, I'd like to see how people chop up my idea and tweak things. I just don't feel like American human history (even tweaked human history) fits the Chrono vibe with Tobias Edison and stealing inventions and whatnot. Not saying it isn't a nice idea for a game, just doesn't feel like a Chrono successor.
-
@idiotekque: Personally, my problem with your suggestion, as presented, was that the first bit was less an homage to Chrono Trigger than a ripoff of it. Anyone recognizing it might think that the rest of the game was similarly derivative, and discard the entire thing before getting to the original parts.
My problem with tushantin's suggestion is that platformers in general don't do much for me—but I acknowledge that as a personal idiosyncracy. That and, while it's a neat idea, I suspect the end product would end up feeling more like Shadow Hearts: From the New World than any of the Chrono games. That isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it doesn't seem to be what most people here want.
-
That's kind of the point though. It's basic on purpose so that people can swap things out and tweak it. I didn't even specify where she was going, and waking up isn't exactly much of a ripoff or something that absolutely had to happen. If you think that part is a ripoff, I encourage you to change it. I'd like to see what people come up with.
I am attached the redheaded swordswoman, though. I think that's a nice homage and still interesting.
-
Hey guys, interesting conversation!
I just thought I'd pop in here and give a shout out to an element of the Chrono games that seems not to have been discussed much: the tropes! By that, I mean that a big part of what made the feel of the Chrono games was how it took the the archetypes, the cliches, the symbolism, all of it taken from a variety of other sources, and then tweaked, compressed, and combined it all to help realize its own world. Where Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest had several iterations and something of a mythology built up, Chrono Trigger had no precursor and thus its architecture was literally an amalgam of what the developers thought would be cool and mesh well. The key is variety, that is, drawing from several very different sources of inspiration, different cultures, mythologies, codes of ethics and beliefs, etc.
Of course, you can't forget the other most important part: the twists! Think back to when you first found out the connection between Lucca and her mother's condition, or the relationship between Magus and almost any other character, how blown away you were or how driven you felt to keep the story coming. It's like how you were supposed to feel after finding out Lynx was Serge's dad (I keed, I keed). That feeling comes from taking the said classic archetypes and tropes, and throwing a fresh spin on them, sometimes a twist or just something simple to subvert expectations and deliver something new. To me, these qualities are essential for a game to feel "like Chrono".
When it comes to the plot, really anything will do, as long as it involves something wrong with a timeline, a fake-out big bad boss at the mid point, and a real big bad boss at the end whose defeat ensures salvation for the world. For characters, you need a somewhat normal main character through whom the player can experience the world anew, a friendly companion and/or romantic interest who is also normal for story tension, and a small variety of non-human or at least non-normal team mates that cover a broad spectrum of the fantasy genre. They each have their shortcomings they can overcome over the course of the plot and they don't have to all get along, in fact if they bicker at first it might be better and drive the dialogue.
I suggest if it's supposed to be kept small and simple, but still actually work as a spiritual successor to the Chrono series and involve time travel, you'll want to use at least three eras: past, present, future. If you're worried about having too much story or the game getting too big, you could always release in shorter episodic segments, so that you would be able to keep each part small and manageable and everyone could quit any time without having all the work go unreleased.
And lastly, as for the gameplay genre, I don't see anything but RPG working for this concept. A side-scroller might work as a game with Chrono characters, but nobody is going to play it and think "man this makes me feel like I felt when I played Chrono Trigger/Cross the first time".
Them's my two cents. Good luck ladies and gents! Wish I could help, but I'm busy :P
-
Nice points, Bekkler.
I don't really understand the thought behind an RPG similar to Chrono Trigger being too difficult to accomplish. I seriously doubt we could make something as good as Chrono Trigger, true, but as far as game development goes, creating something similar to a decades old SNES RPG isn't exactly the biggest undertaking in the world. Time-consuming to make it as grand, yes, but not out of reach at all.
Also, I don't know if anyone has played the game Fortune Summoners, but that side scrolling action RPG type of gameplay could work as well, I'd say.
-
One final suggestion, it's the last one, I SWEAR. Combine the ideas. Alfador redux's prince flung forward in time is the man who meets Idioteque's redheaded swordswoman. He's trying to find his betrothed, but starts to fall for the swordswoman in their travels together. They go to the future and meet Tushantin's wild-eyed scientist who is on the run because he's already been stealing inventions. They team up and end up finding some kind of automaton team mate (like a robot of clockwork or a rock monster or a living wood carving a la pinoccioand) and a fantasy beast (maybe a person with an animal head or some sort of small magical creature), and they need to be working together for a purpose, so maybe they're traveling through time involuntarily but somehow stuck together because of the real big bad boss.
-
That's not bad, actually. Tushantin's scientist kinda pays homage to Lucca, in that regard.
We shall call it... Franken-Chrono! :twisted:
-
I think the name is obvious. Time Break. As in Chrono Break, but without the copyright or intellectual property attached to it.
And yeah, it's pretty much gender-reversed CT but whatever it sounds cool.
-
To add, I like the time traveling element in which levels can be manipulated via time travel. Can't get past a large cliff? Travel to the far past and plant some trees, which when returning to the original time will suddenly have a group of trees you can climb up to get over the cliff.
Have 3-4 time traveling era's (prehistory, middle ages, steampunk, and future). Throw a little bit of Secret of Evermore in there, too... Perhaps his item takes upon a different form in each era, with different functionalities? Perhaps in prehistory it's a grappling hook / whip; in the middle ages a magical alchemy device, in the steampunk era a digging claw, and in the future a short-range teleportation device.
Obviously the item would play a role in solving puzzles as the main character jumps to and fro through time. And perhaps there can be two branching parallel universes, much like Radiant Historia.
Just a few thoughts.
-
Steampunk is always good!
-
I think the name is obvious. Time Break. As in Chrono Break, but without the copyright or intellectual property attached to it.
And yeah, it's pretty much gender-reversed CT but whatever it sounds cool.
Ahahahahaa! I love it! LET'S DO THAT!
Also, Time Break is a neat idea! We could even go the Latin-Dutch combo: Tempus Breken! Why? Because it springs to mind "Tekken" so Tekken lovers would also give it a go for no reason whatsoever.
Brilliant ideas so far, Bekkler! Love the mash-ups. Though I'd like a bit of difference here: The Prince of Water-elemental Healing can now Kick-Box Bare-Fisted, Muay Thai style if we don't have pre-historic settings (no need to rip-off the original CT). Why? Because Water doesn't need a weapon; when concentrated, it can tear the CRAP out of even a metal armor. The Red-Headed Swordswoman could wield Double-Blades (when "upgraded" later in the game) or Shield (Default), whose primary element is Fire, signifying Passion, Love, Hate, Anger, and Destruction (and this time, it's the DAMSEL that saves the Prince from Distress, not the other way around). Tobias? He'd be the Electric type (and hence the Light-Bulb, which he totally didn't invent).
If we've got a Robo equivalent here, I know precisely the story here: In the future, Vacuum Cleaners have their own intelligence and sentience, but they're just as programmable as a human brain. The "newer models" have a Nazi-esq superiority complex, ending up bullying a previous Prototype model, which goes to the dumpster. That's when Tobias and his invention-stealing trait comes in; somehow, he begins to sympathize with that vacuum cleaner. Somehow, he develops empathy. He wonders how heartless even humanity can be, despite the Gods they've become, that they barely care for what they create (Read: Endangered species, anyone? Lesser creatures?). I mean, has no one ever read Lifehacker in the future (http://lifehacker.com/) to realize that even the most out-dated toolsets can be re-engineered into something more efficient than the model via MacGyver-style creativity?
That brings me to Tobias Edison idea. I've always thought of him as some sort of a love-child between Lucca and Magus. In other words, I'd think he'd be the Big Bad of the Middle-Arc of the story, just as Magus was. When the player comes to the Future, everyone knows that Tobias is a notorious invention-thief, and is probably ripping time apart for his own agenda, which is why the Government wants to support you to bring him down. However, after you beat Magus / Tobias, this is what happens:
Create a Time Rip? Fools! I merely SUMMONED a Time Rip!
...wait, that actually means the same thing, isn't it?
Basically, Tobias did what he did, not because he was evil, but probably had a Hypothetical Sister to save (aka, a Freudian Excuse).
Which reminds me, something I needed to be honest to everyone here:
Tobias Edison is actually an existing character of my Real-Life Fan-Fiction in High Fantasy universe, a short-story I made elsewhere once. The story's protagonist is actually Oli Einstein, who discovers the laws of relativity and goes into a time-travelling adventure, and making companions such as Ivan Newton and Tobias Edison, eventually confronting the Big Bad by the name Nick Tesla (the REAL Magus of the story). The team then traverses through Tesla's creepy castle, and beat him... only to find out that Tesla wasn't the real villain. The villain was Edison all along, who used Einstein and Newton to steal Tesla's greatest inventions, and create trouble in Time and Space. Einstein, Newton and Tesla must now time-space travel to fix what's broken, by forming an Avengers team through Time, ranging from Archimedes and Da Vinci to the modern DeGrasse Tyson and Kaku. And they go all in a Sciencey adventures across Space-Time.
(Yes, you can guess I was fan-girling all the while writing that silly story) I was hoping to one-day turn that into a full-fledged game. I just don't have the opportunity yet. XD
Where Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest had several iterations and something of a mythology built up, Chrono Trigger had no precursor and thus its architecture was literally an amalgam of what the developers thought would be cool and mesh well.
Speaking of cultural influences....
I think most would agree that CT was inspired by the Linearity of Time Travel that was prevalent at the time the game was made. Basically, the people assumed that, "time is a strict progression of cause to effect", even though it might have been a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff. This assumption is what brought us CT, which only had a linear perspective of Time. However, when Cross was in the making, what inspired the story and gameplay was the Schrödinger’s Cat theory, where changing time doesn't re-write it, but actually "splits" Reality in two (hence the different worlds in CC). Hence, Cross retconned the idea, which indirectly also points that the Ruined Future in CT timeline isn't actually erased, but still there; rather, Crono and co created a newer, more prosperous reality for themselves.
But these days we have better perception of Time (and Space-Time / Universe) itself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW6JFKgbAF4), and the most modern and culturally significant ideas come from String Theory and other latest developments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hLjP3DaQ44). So I'd say, rather than taking inspiration from CT, we could dig deeper into the source itself, and String Membranes and such latest stuff would be the best place to start (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI50HN0Kshg), as it gives us both Time and Dimensions in a simpler format.
I'd encourage everyone here to watch Michio Kaku's documentary series called "Time" -- all four episodes, starting with Daytime (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTx6ha6fRwo).
The mind of God (aka Universe) may be Cosmic Music, resonating throughout eleven dimensions in hyperspace.
...Which essentially makes Music Composers such as Yasunori Mitsuda equally important for making the CT / CC feel. 8)
Anywho, the reason I suggested Platformer was because -- as I was born in the Third World -- I grew up playing nothing more than NES while everyone in the First World had already moved on to Playstation (and even then we couldn't even afford a duplicate, Chinese bootlegged NES console with multi-game cartridges, but my parents somehow managed it). Suffice it to say, games such as Kickmaster and the like would engross me for hours on end. (http://youtu.be/SW7AOmKJR6Y) Nintendo and such companies pulled off master-pieces at such times and played dangerously. Despite the limitations of game-design and gameplay, or any good technological advancements in art, they stuck to simpler means of production and still create compelling games.
Case-point for Kickmaster: Story is simple enough, where the Protagonist's older brother dies in combat, and he's seeking revenge against the Magical Forces that threaten his kingdom with Super Taekwando Kicks that Chuck Norris couldn't have done better. But it wasn't the story that engrossed you, but what added to the story in the first place -- Atmosphere. We became the protagonists, and felt his conflict through every stage, so almost every area we passed we were scared to know what was out there, and that itself brought a sense of adventure. Magic was strange, mysterious and scary. Even though not a word was spoken on-screen, somehow we knew what the story was about, and how it was proceeding, with each boss we encountered. (Not to mention the best soundtracks the game had, especially the Boss stages which scared the crap out of me)
If we are to make a game, then we need to do what Kickmaster, Shadow of the Ninja, and even Contra Force (and heck, even Angry Birds) did it correctly. But we don't have to go the Platformer route. However, there's no doubt that it was the Platformer idea that actually gave a worldly feeling to those games -- Kickmaster and KAGE (Shadow of the Ninja) portrayed travelling worlds infested by demonic and magical armies, while Contra Force took us to Anti-Terrorism battlefields from Warehouses to Ships to Cities to On-Top-of-A-Freaking-Aeroplane (http://youtu.be/0iscu65lOxU).
Chrono Trigger and Cross did that correctly too, but only via Bird's Eye perspective with RPG. No matter what platform we use, we just gotta keep the world in mind.
And lastly, as for the gameplay genre, I don't see anything but RPG working for this concept. A side-scroller might work as a game with Chrono characters, but nobody is going to play it and think "man this makes me feel like I felt when I played Chrono Trigger/Cross the first time".
When utunnels (the GOD of Game Engines and hacks, such as OpenBOR) (http://www.chronocrash.com/forum/index.php) and I were working on a Platformer / Beat-em Up version of Radical Dreamers (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9484.0.html), we had one idea in common: To relive the Chrono experience in a brand-new way, rather than rehashing the same-old. What did RD and CC have in common? They were completely different games, with entirely different means of playing, to the original CT, and still somehow carried the same "feeling of adventure". We took that core concept and put it on Radical Dreamers FZ, and make sure the players would have no choice but to say, "man this makes me feel like I felt when I played Chrono Trigger/Cross/Radical Dreamers the first time", with one difference: RD is now FUNNY, LIGHT-HEARTED and ACTION PACKED as CT was.
The reason the project never got off ground was mainly because lack of artists on our team (mainly Sprite-Artists), hence why I'm pushing for a more 3D game because I know I can do the models, and we'll just need another modeller for Stage / Area assets. In either case, I'm looking forward to recreating the old RDFZ game into an original now (commercially) as I still have the previous project assets, including all the hard-work utunnels did before.
Steampunk is always good!
Heck, Steampunk could be our new Zeal!
-
Okay, so, messing around with the mashup...
[Game opens with a black screen and a loud THUD. A bedroom flickers into view, in such a way that it looks like someone is opening their eyes. The overall look of the environment is steampunk/19th-century-gone-mad-ish. Lying in the bed is a young woman with red hair. Sitting on her legs is a young boy.]
[Boy]: Good morning, sis! Sheesh, trying to get you up in the morning is like raising the dead! Were you practicing again last night?
[Young woman sits up and stretches.]
[Young woman]: It's the only time I can. And you know, some day you're going to miss the bed, jumping off the dresser like that.
[She looks at her clock, an elaborate assemblage of gears, sparky things, tubes of liquid, etc.]
[Young woman]: It isn't even time for breakfast yet. Why did you get me up?
[Boy]: Dad wants you.
[Young woman]: For what?
[Boy]: Dunno, but he was cursing a blue streak earlier, out by the barn. Mom was talking about making him wash his mouth out with soap!
[The young woman gets out of bed.]
[Young woman]: Okay, tell him I'll be down in a minute.
[As the boy runs out of the room, she picks up a katana from the floor beside the bed and belts it on. The player now has control and can poke around the room. Maybe she has an allowance hidden somewhere? There's a hallway with a couple of other doors (not openable) and a staircase down. The ground floor has four rooms: kitchen, dining room, living room, and a sort of workroom/storage area. The moment the player reaches the bottom of the stairs, the cutscene takes over again, and the character is taken into the kitchen, where a man wearing overalls and a straw hat and a woman wearing a simple dress are waiting for her.]
[Young woman]: Morning, Mom, Mr. Carter. [Boy] said you needed me for something...?
Mr. Carter: 'Fraid so. And won't you please—
[Young woman, interrupting]: Look, I know how you feel, and I'm glad Mom's happy with you, but I had a father, and you aren't him.
Mr. Carter: —not wear your boots in the house? Your mother just gave me hell for that.
[Young woman]: Ulp.
[Mother]: Dear, language...
Mr. Carter: Sorry. Anyway, the tractor just gave up the ghost, and I need you to go to [town] to find someone to fix it.
[Young woman]: You could get someone from [other town] in half the time it would take me to walk all the way to [town] and back.
Mr. Carter: ...except that the bridge washed out when we got hit with all that rain yesterday. It'll take weeks to fix it, and in the meanwhile, there's no way to cross north of Sandler's Ford. You're our only hope.
[He winks.]
[Young woman]: (Well, it beats weeding the garden.) Okay, then, I'll go.
[Mother]: I packed a lunch for you.
[Young woman]: Thanks. [She takes the lunch, but sets it aside on the kitchen table.] I'll get going in just a minute.
[She leaves the kitchen and goes into the living room, entering an alcove at the back that contains several framed black-and-white photos, an incense burner, and a few other seemingly-random objects like a pistol and some folded articles of clothing. She picks up one of the photos, which depicts a young man in a military uniform, wearing a katana and a pistol at his belt. He has medium-coloured hair that might be light brown, dirty blonde...or red.]
[Young woman]: Sorry, Dad, I don't have time to burn any incense today. I'll make it up to you tomorrow, I promise.
[She sets the photo down and bows to it and the other pictures. Control is returned to the player, who now has access to the entire house, the farmyard, and a slice of overworld bounded by a river to the south and east, and a forest to the north and west. (If the player remembers to pick up the lunch, it acts as a hitpoint-restoring item.) The broken river bridge and inaccessible town on the far side are clearly visible. The town the player is supposed to go to is just as clearly visible on the far side of the forest, which is a dungeon with low-level foes. Two or three screens in, she hits a large clearing...and suddenly the lighting fluctuates.]
[Young woman]: What the—?
[She draws her sword as a spitting, sparking portal appears in the middle of the clearing. A man stumbles through it and falls face-first to the ground. His clothing is torn and in a visibly not-from-around-here style, probably involving a cape. He wears wide metal bracelets on his wrists, each with a large crystal inset, and his hair is white, but shading out to purple at the ends. As he collapses, a small object falls from his hand and rolls away into the leaf mold.]
[Young woman]: Hey, are you okay?
[Something growls, and several pairs of eyes flicker into visibility at the edge of the clearing.]
[Young woman]: Ladon lizards?! Oh, hell, that's right, lightning ticks them off, and that thing... Guess I'll just have to get rid of them!
[Boss battle, 3 x Ladon lizard. When it's over...]
[Young woman]: Phew, that was a pretty good workout! Now let's have another look at Mr. Mystery here.
[She circles the unconscious man.]
[Young woman]: Well, if the lizards didn't wake you up, you're probably down for the count, my friend. Fortunately, you don't look that big, so I might be able to carry you out of here before you become something's lunch. Let's get you over onto your back, now...
[She tries to touch the man, but he jerks away.]
???: Estak? Sidar mu Liara—
[Young woman]: I'm sorry, I don't understand.
[He grabs her by the wrist. The clearing flickers out, and we get (if possible) a brief FMV sequence showing a group of mages duking it out with a bunch of very large robotic things that look a bit like AT-ATs from Star Wars. We also see a young woman with hair that shades from silver to blue, and a hand with a wide crystal-studded wristband reaching in her direction, and hear someone screaming "Liara!" as she is pulled away into a dark vortex. Then the clearing comes back.]
[Young woman]: What the hell was that?!
???: I...am...sorry. It was...necessary...that we...communicate. I—
[He faints again.]
[Young woman]: Well, you're just a bundle of mysteries, aren't you? Okay, come on, ups-a-daisy...
[She manages to get him up on her back, and carries him out of the clearing. For a moment after that, we just see the empty location. Then a shadowy figure slips out from among the trees, grabs the small object that fell from the man's hand, and makes off with it.]
-----------------------------------------------------
What can I say? The idea was gnawing at me all day at work, so I figured I should write it out.
-
I still feel that a top-down RPG is the way to go. Spiritual successor can mean a lot of things, but as you venture further and further from what the game was... I think you start to lose the point of things. As far as the graphics go, what graphics akin to newer Pokemon handheld games? Where the environment is 3D, but the characters are 2D sprites within that 3D world.
I've recently been playing the heck out of some games made by an indie developer called Carpe Fulgar. Specifically, Fortune Summoners and Chantelise. Fortune Summoners is how I could see the platformer genre working for this project. Here's a video of some gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08QVxoiXgvs). Basically it's a mashup between platformer, action RPG, and fighting game (trust me, it's not a button masher). The game makes use of a 2D sidescrolling plane while still creating a world that you both get familiar with, and also have fun exploring (deep dark dungeons and the like, which are unnerving).
On the flipside, Chantelise is a 3D hack-and-slash ARPG, but rather uniquely, it uses 2D sprites for the characters and enemies (not bosses, from what I've seen so far), while the world is 3D. Here's a gameplay video of that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c2Nv1RvOKA) (you may want to skip ahead). The game is excellent as well, but like Fortune Summoners, is very difficult.
Just some ideas for the graphical and gameplay style, I suppose. Loving the last couple posts. Full of great ideas and brainstorming.
-
Xenogears also used much that setup (2D sprites, 3D world). So it can be made to work in an RPG, and even look professional, so long as you limit the camera angles. Just don't zoom in on the sprites, as Xenogears made the mistake of doing in some cutscenes. ;)
-
To be honest, I'll admit I'm biased towards sprites. Games like Guilty Gear X2 #Reload still make me drool, and Chantelise has stirred up my love and appreciation for the art style. It's just such a nice, clean look that can keep the retro vibe while still being modern.
I've done spriting myself, but nothing serious...
-
Love the writing, Alf!
-
Chantelise and Fortune Summoners offer interesting gameplay elements! However, we need to keep in mind that we need something simple. Something achievable. And still have the depth of story without actually dabbling in too much story.
That said, we can't have 2D sprites either, unless we actually render them via 3D. That's because currently we don't have any sprite artists available, save for TheMage who is either busy or may not be interested (and I'll need to ask Alcyone too, but she's kinda busy too). If we take the Platformer route, there are tutorials for it. If we take the 3D route + Action route, maintaining controls for hand-helds will be difficult (unless you wanna target for Win/Mac/Linux and Consoles). If we take the 3D + RPG route, then we'll need a way to devise a battle system which may or may not resemble CT or CC, or something entirely original.
Would you like to control one-character fighting modes and switch between them, or would you prefer to use all three at the same time?
Anywho, I thought I'd share this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAagK8DXnEA
That's Radical Dreamers -- Forever Zero. No original sprites yet, save for a few of Kid's, because utunnels and I (well, mostly utunnels) were working on the core engine and polish the game-mechanics before moving towards the harder parts. The idea was to "re-imagine" Radical Dreamers as a Fighting-Heist like game, where the final stage would be Viper Manor. The reason being, we wanted to go through the story all the way from Kid-meets-Serge to the end of RDFZ, where Lynx and Pollon (Manly Harle) seem to mastermind their adventures from the shadows. We also wanted to have an RD equivalent of Glenn, Zoah, Karsh, even Norris, along with his friend Chuck (whadya know...) and older brother William Ishito (Crimson Echoes).
Anywho, take the incomplete idea from that video, and let me know what about it inspires you. Maybe we can incorporate something like that with an RPG? Maybe we could get some idea for a Hand-held?
P.S.: Who is Liara? And that monk-prince guy, is he who I think he is? Prince of Zeal-esq Steam Punk era?
-
Fortune Summoners and Chantelise are actually fairly simple games. The gameplay of FS is rather complex for a sidescrolling game, but both games are fairly simple (I'd probably say Chantelise is very simple). I haven't done any research about Carpe Fulgar, but I know they're an indie developer.
As for having no spriter... that does suck, lol. A big part of me feels like game needs spriting to keep that Chrono feel. I suppose CC didn't have sprites, but if you wanted a CC feel... you'd need beautiful, hand drawn maps. I feel like that's one of the top three factors that make CC what it is (speaking visually, of course, since that is a notable point). Then again, isn't it safe to say we're missing more than a spriter on this project? Looking for outside help seems like it's gotta happen one way or another.
Character control... If the game was a side scroller similar to Fortune Summoners, I'd say one at a time. The AI in FS is quite good, and you can customize your companion's tactics, so mages will stay back, be conservative, just heal, rain hell down, etc. It works very well. The gameplay of FS is what's keeping me addicted.
-
Nice, this is really coming up, even if it's still on the concept board, and it looks like it's moving over to gameplay. I better keep a better eye on this then now that it's moving slightly out of plot-talk...
-
If we can scrape together enough artistic and programming talent of some sort to put together a demo (making cautious use of sites like opengameart.com is also an option), we then have a solid base for a fundraising campaign on kickstarter/indiegogo/etc. College/university students in artistic fields are often willing to work comparatively cheap if it gives them a project for their portfolio, and some of them are very good. The plot scrap I wrote would require art for 2 PCs, 3 NPCs, at least 2 monsters, and 6-10 locations depending on how the interior of the house was split up.
We'll still need some 2D art regardless, for the menu (and possibly dialogue portraits).
In terms of mechanics, what we have to be careful of is taking too much inspiration from any one game. That being said, elements of CT's battle system have been used by games from other studios—Suikoden has multi-person joint techs, most strategy RPGs have area-of-effect stuff, etc—so we may be able to produce something similar without stepping on too many toes. CC's battle system, on the other hand, is largely unique in my experience.
@tushantin: Well, I kind of tagged the "modern" era rather than the "Zeal" era as the steampunk one, although I don't think there's much in what I wrote that wouldn't let us shuffle them around (might need to have something other than a tractor break down, and turn the photo of the father into a painting, that's all), but otherwise you're pretty much right. "Liara" is the childhood sweetheart he got separated from in his tumble through time, who ended up in some other era.
-
"Liara" is the childhood sweetheart he got separated from in his tumble through time, who ended up in some other era.
....but then it turns out that Liara is more bad-ass than the brother. (Sorry, couldn't help myself; I don't like over-using the "helpless damsel" idea, even though I like them in their unique ways...) This is also coincidentally where we could pull a Jacuzzi Spot (Baccano!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXzWrqRzUQ) who, despite being "cowardly weak" in the group, faces his fears with sheer will to show exactly how dangerous he can be (seriously, Jacuzzi kicks ass in the last-half of the series).
Alfador is right on one end: We shouldn't be constrained by inspirations, and instead use them to propel us on our exploration and practicality. See, if CT developers had our technology back in the day, they would have shaken heaven and earth to not rely on 2D graphics and instead opt for giving us the best possible experience (in fact, their game engine was a breakthrough in SNES contemporary technology). Chrono Cross and Radical Dreamers did not even bother remaining close to the same engines and graphics; they were their own separate games, but still had a similar "feel" with their unique sense of adventure going on. And that's all despite the fact that they are part of the same series. The artists paid special attention to innovate rather than be left behind with what the Poets often call The Anxiety of Influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anxiety_of_Influence).
Chrono Trigger: Resurrection, hence didn't care about sprites, so long as they can respect the aesthetic theme, and went on ambitiously to create a 3D engine. So if we hinder ourselves with the needs restraining ourselves impractically (such as using 2D sprites for computer game, instead of device) then we would be going the opposite direction to the original developers of CT. And we're not even part of the Chrono series, despite it being a "spiritual successor"! So what obligations do we have anyway?
That said, we can make a completely different game, but have the same feel to the story. It would just require really clever people to pull that off.
@tushantin: Well, I kind of tagged the "modern" era rather than the "Zeal" era as the steampunk one, although I don't think there's much in what I wrote that wouldn't let us shuffle them around (might need to have something other than a tractor break down, and turn the photo of the father into a painting, that's all), but otherwise you're pretty much right.
Haha, the reason I thought Steampunk would make an excellent "Zeal-esq" era (though not necessarily in Antiquity) is because it can MAKE THINGS FLY powered by steam! Think about it: when harnessing such power, the people thought they could even go to the moon. So perhaps they built their own Space Station in the sky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Space_Station)? An island or something that could revolve around the Earth's orbit without falling?
The era ends when they discover something even more powerful: Electricity, or even Nuclear Energy. But the problem was that, after the Steampunk era, people didn't dare to dream, because the Steam Station in orbit essentially went through the same fate as Zeal did when it summoned Lavos, causing countless casualties. I think that's where we could also have a King Zeal type villain, who is too ambitious for his own good, but isn't actually wrong -- in fact, his defeat wouldn't mean his dreams have ended, but simply "transferred" to the common folks, inspiring others to dream big but also evaluate risks involved to think practically. A fine line between Blind Ambition and Nay-saying Scepticism, that would eventually lead to a "prosperous" future.
[youtube]FVPBOKd3Cu4[/youtube]
-
Problem is, I think fully 3D graphics aren't a great option unless we could create something as graphically beautiful as a newer Final Fantasy game, or TERA, or Far Cry 3 (especially concerning the faces), etc. That's out of our reach, so whatever 3D graphics we had would honestly look more dated than well done spriting, in my opinion.
I'm all for going outside the box, but it all depends. What about an SRPG approach? Think XCOM: Enemy Unknown with swords, bows, and magic.
-
I personally don't think 3D graphics add anything of significance to an RPG. (That doesn't mean that I don't think they're a viable option—just that they're not innately better than 2D for this particular purpose.) 2D doesn't have to be tile-based backgrounds and super-deformed sprites—those parts really are artefacts of the limited capabilities of the old game systems. We could use large sprites rendered from models (having models does make animation easier, and a few tweaks and filters can make the results look more in tune with hand-drawn sprites), and more artistic backgrounds like the ones in Cross.
SRPG... Mmph. In the end, a turn-based SRPG is really just an ordinary RPG where location and terrain have been made important in combat. (They do tend to have what I call "degenerate maps"—overworlds presented as lists or graphs of locations rather than freely explorable space—but that isn't a requirement, and anyway there are some non-SRPGs that do the same thing.) Not impossible, but it requires a different style of planning for the combat engine, with more attention to distances and area effects.
@tushantin: I still like the idea of her becoming General Liara (or Special Ops Commander Liara or President Liara or something). We could even, if we wanted to be truly evil, make her the Mid-Boss. (http://s3.postimg.org/mgb8sh9zz/icon_alfador.gif)
I also kind of like the idea of having a love rectangle: Liara, the prince, the redhead, and one more character form a set of possible romantic pairs, and the player influences who gets whom.
If we're doing steampunk space stations, why not go the full distance, with geosynchronous stations and steam-powered space elevators? (The physics would strain credulity, mind you, but magic could close the gap.) Something to think about, I guess.
-
^ Your thoughts on the spriting, exactly what I was thinking myself.
And I only mentioned the SRPG route because I know of two occasions where it's been done extremely well with both graphic styles mentioned. 1. Full 3D, XCOM: Enemy Unknown (I also think gameplay like that + the setting we're making would be really, really fun). And 2. 3D map, 2D characters, Final Fantasy Tactics (obviously sort of the godfather of the genre).
-
When I said "using the best technologies we have at our disposal", I didn't necessarily mean going full-on Mass Effect on a beginner-level game. I just meant that, using 3D tools, it's possible to create 2D games too (like Bad Piggies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR2YGAytJrM) / Angry Birds), or even going for low-quality 3D games (Chrono Cross, Dark Avenger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-UfUsGEAkU), etc.). Everything can be optimized depending on our targets.
But since you guys mentioned SRPG....
:D
*Tushantin pulls something out from his magic bag yet again*
BEHOLD! The approximately perfect engine! http://eviscerate.net/article/rpg-battle-engine-renpy
....which might turn out useless. See, that engine is licensed Creative Commons 3 Attributions, Non-Commercial. Meaning, we can't make money from it. HOWEVER.... it reveals one important detail here:
It's just a module which can be added to Ren'Py. Ren'Py is basically just a Visual Novel engine (http://www.renpy.org/) (that I've fallen in love with), and the best thing about it is that it can modified to your heart's content provided you're knowledgeable in Python; then you could add mini-games or full-fledged battle systems, anything that you'd like. The only limitation is imagination needed skill with coding, time and effort.
But there comes the curious part: if we're using Python, then why not just go with Blender? It has everything we need, and all we need is someone to code things in it. So why rely on rendered sprites to be recalled as textures, and code the animations procedures, when you can simply use in-built animations? Besides, low-poly models don't take too much time to render, hence why so many 3D games work well even on old computers (such as GTA Vice City). We could easily just slap a toon-shader on a model and make it seem 2D -- just without the outlines, because that feature isn't there yet.
-
I just don't think 2D games using 3D methods look very great. Perhaps that's just a personal option, but when I think of Trine, Party of Sin (basically a Trine clone), ...Angry Birds, etc, I just don't think that fits the project or is going to look very good. I really feel like there needs to 2D art and spriting.
-
I just don't think 2D games using 3D methods look very great. Perhaps that's just a personal option, but when I think of Trine, Party of Sin (basically a Trine clone), ...Angry Birds, etc, I just don't think that fits the project or is going to look very good. I really feel like there needs to 2D art and spriting.
Oh, don't worry yourself with game aesthetics, and let me do all the work for you. :wink: Feel free to complain once we're getting the demo ready, because that's when we'll need it most, because sprites or no sprites, we'll need to make 3D models anyway (since we have no sprite artists). That, and the environment can be CC-like 2D. Or we could just think something up later.
For now, we'll still need to think of targets and gameplay. Anybody has ideas? Integrate time travel in the game or battle system too? Or should we just piggy-back on existing game-styles (such as ATB, SRPG, etc.)? We could also go for Infinity Blade (http://youtu.be/blooun8ndUs?t=4m50s) route and have a gesture-based battle system. Or even something unique: Gesture-based battle system with Chrono Cross' Stamina-Based? We could even have three slots at the side of the touch-screen, where we can keep three Elements / Magicite / Materia and summon spells when needed. THINK OF ALL THE COMBOS!
-
I'd say it should go for something that isn't overtly complex. Using an already existent system would be easier, though making it unique could make it stand out. On the other hand, if it were unique, again I'd say it shouldn't need to be something very complex.
-
Tush, you're making some broad assumptions and leaps in logic. If the project gets into production, what is to stop you from going to a spriting site's forum and asking people to join?
Personally, i won't be able to commit to helping (though this its a fun thread to read) but its not difficult to get artists on board, and i expect that if you're offering money and the chance to visually build a world from scratch, they'd jump for the chance.
Also I still feel like if its really going to be made and it's really going to feel like a Chrono game, it's got to be an RPG. Radical Dreamers is a bad example of what Chrono games feel like, since its connection to Trigger is last minute and tangential, and since the game was essentially remade from the ground up into Chrono Cross, which is (I don't need to remind you) an RPG. That said, I hope you guys are able to come to some basic agreements and really get this thing started.
-
In terms of game mechanics, we could always do what served Squaresoft fairly well for the Final Fantasy series before it jumped the shark: put in a standard menu-based RPG combat engine (probably ATB rather than turn-based—we don't want to go too retro), and save the ingenuity for the tech/magic/skill system (which doesn't even have to be fully fleshed out for the demo). If the thought of a text menu is disturbing, we could switch to a circle-of-icons menu of the type common in PS2 RPGs.
@tushantin: Coding 2D animations isn't really all that difficult, though (been there, done that, remember? ;) )
-
Tush, you're making some broad assumptions and leaps in logic. If the project gets into production, what is to stop you from going to a spriting site's forum and asking people to join?
If it were that easy, I would have finished RDFZ by now. I'm assuming this on the basis that we have nothing to pay at this moment. However, once we do have something to pay, and depending on the targets, then of course we've got plenty of agency to hire the best sources of art. :)
...it's got to be an RPG.
I'm not saying it can't be an RPG (I'm not so closed minded). I'm just stimulating your imaginations by bombarding you guys with out-of-the-box ideas, and even to challenge our perceptions of what can make a modern RPG because the contemporary view here seems to be backwards, caught in Retro-era, with the exceptions of a few circumstances (no offence).
For instance, when I said that we could borrow inspirations from Infinity Blade, I didn't mean that the game has to be exactly like that; instead, I meant that, if we go with the RPG route, we could replace Chrono Cross' "Menu Selecting" with a more convenient "Gesture-Based" attack for touch-screens, such as tablets and mobiles. Think about it: wouldn't it be more convenient for Serge to dish-out combos with the movement of your fingers, rather than constantly selecting "attack percentages"? But even so, (I'm only being biased here) I feel that 3D models are more efficient in such a system than 2D.
But hey, once we got a good engine to work with -- and a good programmer to rely on -- anything goes! I'm totally fine with Zenonia-style graphics for hand-held RPGs (http://youtu.be/fVCoHIibnRE). :)
@tushantin: Coding 2D animations isn't really all that difficult, though (been there, done that, remember? ;) )
I've no problems with the "making". I'm mostly concerned about how we'd pull off. We need a good plan, because there's a serious lack of OpenSource / Free engines we could use. For instance, it's easy to make a good 3D game for Win/Mac/Linux with the help of Unity3D and/or Blender (the latter still relying on Python), but we haven't many engines we could use for Andraid/iOS/Windows Phone (and hand-helds seem to be a GOOD market these days, even though Lennis warned that the "bubble might pop"). So what are we aiming for? 3D would be good for desktop in my opinion, and 2D would be great for hand-helds. However, there aren't many 2D game engines we could make use of... unless a programmer is willing to, such as building an engine in Lua based on aesthetic requirements, and porting it to devices.
Of course, by "aesthetic requirements", I also mean "gameplay". Everything would have to be tweaked: Menus, Portraits, Character Selections, Stages, Battle Systems, etc. all based on "artsy prototypes". But where can we find such a programmer to begin with? Or better yet, an engine?
(That said, I really need to find a way of creating interactive prototypes, but programming is beyond me...)
-
That brings me to the business model (assuming we're going with Hand-helds with 2D graphics, but it can work for PC games too):
If we go with Freemium: The first level of the game would be free to play, as well as the first boss, and the story contained within the first level would be stand-alone and a full-fledged story in its own right (with a bit of cliffhanger, of course). This would assure that our audiences are satisfied and willing to pay more for the experiences. Progressing the plot would require in-app purchase of a license to unlock "Premium".
If we go with Premium: The app could be purchased for a small fee -- perhaps the average $2.99 -- with the whole game playable, ad-free, and giving the audiences the full enjoyment of things. Of course, there will still be in-app purchases, such as getting a powerful weapon from a legendary blacksmith, or even unlocking new extra content and stages (which can be consequently added over time even after the publication of the game). Basically, "paying" can open a portal beyond the original game, and despite the game over, there's nothing stopping the gamers to "go on more adventures with more difficulty".
In either case, more money for us! I just don't want to follow the example of Gamevil, but we still need a solid model for this kind of thing.
(P.S.: Once we have the success on hand-helds, we could always just "delay" a bit and port it via Steam on desktops too.)
-
If we're to make money off this at all, you can nix the Blender engine—it turns out that it's GPL, and I'm pretty (although not absolutely) sure that license attaches to the artwork as well if the game is distributed as a unit. That means anyone can redistribute it without giving us a dime. (The most usual method for making money off GPL'd software just doesn't apply to games, so we'd be reduced to begging for donations as a long-term monetization strategy—not good.)
As for money-making models...we have to decide which platform we're targeting, first. For an RPG, the best pricing model may be the classic one (free demo, largish lump sum—$20-$30, most likely—for the full game), but we can't do that if we're targeting general-purpose handhelds. Because the prices of apps are so low, it's actually pretty difficult to make money with them, and this is not Angry Birds we're talking about here—a classic RPG is not a casual game and it is not going to appeal to people who don't normally play games. Those it is likely to appeal to are more likely to have a dedicated gaming hand-held, like the PS Vita. I don't think this would make money as a cellphone/tablet app. If we can target devices secondarily it might be worth it, but I don't think they're good primary targets.
Our logical targets, therefore, are gaming handhelds, consoles, or PCs. You typically have to pay to get dev kits for most handhelds or consoles, and you need to re-write your code for each type of machine (or create a compatibility layer). Targeting PCs, on the other hand, is easy—lots of free engines and toolkits under a variety of licenses, no restrictions on pricing (or on much of anything else for that matter), no cross-compiling or other compatibility issues, no "App Store" gatekeeper to get past. (That's right, you can sink a lot of time and money into creating an app and still not be permitted to sell it.)
I really think this is premature, anyway. We need to do on the one hand story, preliminary character and location design, and very preliminary menu/UI design (not visual design, but options and hierarchies), and on the other hand, combat design (general model, which most of us seem to want to be RPG -> stat modeling and algorithms + magic/skill/tech system). Deciding on an engine and a revenue model can wait until we have some idea of what we're trying to do.
-
Actually, Blender's turning a good business for both animators and game-developers all over the world! Not too sure about the specifics of GPL license it uses, but if I remember correctly it allows you to even sell anything you make with it without needing to distribute code, so long as you acknowledge it's made with Blender. That's probably the most important part of the license, and hence why it's "Free as in Freedom". I've taken a gander at plenty of such projects in various places, such as TouchArcade, TIGSource and even Blender Artists. There seems to be no problem whatsoever. But of course, we could totally ditch Blender in favour of other engines once we know what's feasible.
That said, for a basic and uncomplicated RPG, mobiles and tablets does fit the job. That's because if we target to NDS and PSP, we have the obligation of providing quality which we can't do on our first ventures. In that regard, the first game's story needn't be heavily developed, but just enough to captivate the audience. That's what Zenonia did.
As far as revenue goes... I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that mobile app purchase outnumber hand-held purchases currently by over ten-fold. That's because, even in the Third World, there are more smartphones (especially Entry Level) than there are PSP or Nintendo DS. Heck, I've got a hundred friends who actually have Android phones but not one of them has a hand-held gaming device. In fact, I purchased a used HTC smartphone for $2, the price of five glasses of Lassi, but could never dream of purchasing a console! Sure, many would opt for free games, but with the Freemium business model we can still take our chances and make money.
But if we make the game primarily for Desktops, then that puts us in an even worse obligations: quality of gameplay. This means that we have no choice but to discard 2D sprites (unless it somehow helps with gameplay) because it may "hinder" quality and appeal, due to large screen sizes these days. We have no choice but to go one of two ways:
1) 3D engine, not necessarily Mass Effect quality, but Chrono Cross style would also do.
2) If Sprites, then it needs to be sufficiently high-quality, much like Ragnarok Battle Offline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSmXfM7dUkc
-
I don't have the time to jump into this thread as much as I'd like, but...
Maybe I'm old school, but it just seems so much easier to make a SNES-era style JRPG as our first outing and as a true Chrono Trigger spiritual successor. The graphics are easy to make (sprite-based) and assembly is super easy. My fear is by using Blendor and a 3D engine we may never see the light of day... At least not on a first outing.
I think a lot of this conversation is great, but all the talk of a business model and an engine are WAAAAY too drawing the cart before the horse. It seems like every one has a different interpretation of what should be done. To start, we have to have a basic idea of what we want.
A 3D or 2D game? A traditional JRPG or an action-RPG hybrid? This is where the conversation should really be headed. The rest can follow once there's a framework to WHAT will be happening.
-
The graphics are easy to make (sprite-based) and assembly is super easy. My fear is by using Blendor and a 3D engine we may never see the light of day...
But that's the basic problem here; my opinions are different. Among the people participating in this thread, I'm the only one capable of pulling off important graphics, and I'm not even good at sprites (unless you count high-res sprites like Ragnarok Battle Offline, for which I could use Synfig). In other words, for now, the only way to have the game see any light of day is going the 3D route, even if you need to make a 2D game (that is, 3D models that look like they are 2D sprites, but aren't).
Why? Because currently you've only got me as an artist. (But of course, once we have money and interests, we could get more, and the whole deal will change for the better.)
Not to sound condescending, but I'm just trying to help you all make the most of our available resources, rather than making castles in the sky. But in any regard, I'll leave you all to decide then.
EDIT: Just wanted to mention, Boo. Take your time reading through the threads. I think you might agree with my concerns in previous posts.
-
Thing is, tushantin, by the same logic, I could push one engine or the other by virtue of being the only programmer participating. But I really do think Boo is right, and making such a selection is premature. We need the "what" before we can move to the "how".
(Re: Blender, it looks like it has a split licensing scheme, and I wasn't aware of the second license; also, the GPL may not have been intended to be viral to the artwork in this case. Mea culpa.)
-
Yeah, don't worry, I agree with the "What" too (which is why I've been trying to encourage people to "think of targets"). Again, that all depends on:
1) What we can achieve,
2) What are our obligations to specific platform. (By "Obligations", I mean "what the audience appreciates having")
So I ask every one of you: 2D or 3D? Desktop, Consoles or Mobile?
(Here, we're not gonna go with "2D should only be sprite-based", because that would be a regressing topic; we're going with the assumption of What we need to make. Aesthetics come later.)
-
It would be most practical to target desktops/laptops. With Android, you're looking at a whole slew of optimization problems to deal with, with iOS you're likely to lose your money way before you get a chance to make any. Same goes for consoles.
I would argue that 100% of your audience has access to a PC, so make sure it works in Windows, Mac, and Linux, and you're as good as you can be.
I could care less whether it was in 2d or 3d, but Boo is right: great-looking sprites take far less time to put together than professional quality animated 3d models, there is no question about that.
As a potential audience member, I can tell you that if I heard of a game that was supposed to be similar to Chrono Trigger and/or Chrono Cross and I quickly saw that it wasn't an rpg, my interest would drop from "Must buy" to "Meh" immediately. And I've bought every game i could find that has even remotely reminded me of Trigger: Black Sigil, Radiant Historia, Final Fantasy 13-2, and I'm on a desperate quest for a copy of Xenoblade for a reasonable price. The thing these games all have in common is the genre, RPG. My opinion doesn't have to matter and I don't expect to convince anyone but I figured it was worth sharing these thoughts.
-
Thanks for your thoughts, Bekkler.
Before we get down to it, I agree: I think Desktops should be a good idea to target. That means, we're not limited anymore. :)
Though, there we hit another problem: No matter how much we want it, RPG is kinda complex, which may not be a practical solution for a "beginner game" in the first place...
Alfador and I talked this over via PM, and I wondered how such a system can be replicated in various engines, such as Blender, Lua programming, etc. that can still deliver quality nonetheless. Sure, there are more convenient systems than Blender, but even with 2D sprites, creating and managing a complex inventory-based system such as an RPG becomes tedious (although Alfador would say that maintaining a list alleviates that problem, but the creation is still pretty tedious). That, and maintaining enough characters (let's say, a minimum of 5) with all their animations, especially along-side enemies and world-assets, production can easily get bogged down without getting anything done. (Think of how RPG Maker games, despite having the engine handed to them on a platter, take so much time to complete...) That, and it's usually story-heavy too, which needs to integrate well with gameplay without hitting the audience with a wall of text.
I'm not against RPG because I don't like it. I'm against RPG because we can't make one with our current resources, unless we find a better solution of the How. Which is why we need a mini-game first, a sort of a "prequel" to a grander RPG that might follow once our mini-game is successful.
In that regard, creating a small game with multiple stages, even if it's in 3D, is actually pretty easy (though it takes plenty of effort). We can make use of gimmicky low-poly cartoonish models, and not rely on full-quality stuff, but still pack a punch with gameplay. Our demo is basically a pitch to the gaming industry that our next efforts will be worth a shot. So in that regard, story isn't the priority here; it's gameplay.
If we can't make a simple game, how con we even make a full-fledged RPG? Ever?
Though your idea about "what's Chrono like" reminds me: There's a good reason I keep bringing up Ragnarok Battle Offline (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsUaeSyNKqs). The game was created, not by the original IP holders, but by an independent group called "French Bread". It was based on its RPG counterpart called Ragnarok Online (both Version One (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLrFeqygMPo) and Version Two (http://youtu.be/rSd4-vOQmBk?t=2m31s)). To be honest, the developers had no intention of making a sequel or successor to RO; if people wanted to play RO, they could play he original. Instead, they re-imagined the original game and thought differently -- and without even relying on the story, since Battle Offline has no narrations -- and despite their decisions they still managed to cleverly have the same RO feel. And even better: they one-up'd the original RO. And compared to the high-maintenance of RO servers, Battle Offline was actually pretty straightforward and simple to create.
So what is to say we have to stick to RPG? Why do we drown ourselves in Anxiety of Influence, and restrain ourselves from creating something even better?
But like I said before, we don't have to go strict "RPG or No-RPG"; we just need to change our perception of what's an RPG. Throw our previous experiences out the window, and think creatively for once. We can have the elements of an RPG without actually having an RPG, or we could have an RPG without it being a "Contemporary" RPG (the latter which creates problems). An example (just an example, mind you; just an example!!) would be a First Person SHooter, but camera at the back to make it RESEMBLE an RPG. Little things like that make a world of difference.
-
I don't quite see how making it an RPG is gonna be that taxing, at least compared to being a non-RPG. Like, many games don't need to be an RPG to involve a huge inventory, or many characters/enemies/etc. on the screen at once, or be story-heavy, among other things.
-
Content and art assets are going to take a while for any decent game, regardless of type. Some types can shortcut the process a bit because they have minimal non-map content, that's all.
The programming is only the beginning.(http://s3.postimg.org/mgb8sh9zz/icon_alfador.gif)
-
Alfador redux's prince flung forward in time...
Personally, I'd like to see a little explanation for why he's flung forward in time and the circumstances surrounding it, although mainly just because a fairly cheap but highly effective trick for creating satisfying denouement is to reference things the the Main Character did at the beginning of the story again at the end. As such, the more we know about the beginning, the better the end can be.
CT did this, for example: Leene's Bell marked the beginning of the adventure, Marle's Bell marked the end (and in some endings, Marle comes to wake Crono up, as his mother did at the beginning). Someone gets lost in a telepod accident at first, someone gets lost in a telepod accident again at the end. The movie, Last Holiday, this this a little to excess, but if you've seen it, you probably can think of some of the many many times they did this in that movie.
To add, I like the time traveling element in which levels can be manipulated via time travel. Can't get past a large cliff? Travel to the far past and plant some trees, which when returning to the original time will suddenly have a group of trees you can climb up to get over the cliff.
That reminds me a little of the CT:DS bonus areas, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on one's perspective.
Have 3-4 time traveling era's (prehistory, middle ages, steampunk, and future). Throw a little bit of Secret of Evermore in there, too... Perhaps his item takes upon a different form in each era, with different functionalities? Perhaps in prehistory it's a grappling hook / whip; in the middle ages a magical alchemy device, in the steampunk era a digging claw, and in the future a short-range teleportation device.
Love this idea!
[Game opens with a black screen and a loud THUD. A bedroom flickers into view, in such a way that it looks like someone is opening their eyes. The overall look of the environment is steampunk/19th-century-gone-mad-ish. Lying in the bed is a young woman with red hair. Sitting on her legs is a young boy.]
Brilliant opening. The "waking up" scene definitely is a Chrono hallmark, but not trademark.
Also I still feel like if its really going to be made and it's really going to feel like a Chrono game, it's got to be an RPG.
I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment, mainly because in the years since CT, what "RPG" means has changed so much that I think we can get into a tangle if we try to focus on what an RPG actually is. Back in 1995, having a leveling system and equipeable items essentially made something an RPG. Throw in a story focus, and you definitely had one. But what about Hybrid Heaven in 1999? That was essentially an fighter/RPG (a trend we see continue, though with strong fighter ties, in things like Soul Calibur 2 and Super Smash Bros Brawl). That particular game, alas, had problems with lack of popularity (basically, I think it alienated RPG fans with the fighting elements, and it alienated fighter fans with RPG elements). I think my point is mainly just that while I agree people should think it's an RPG, I think that actually still gives us a huge amount of room. Personally, I think a puzzle fighter RPG (think interlocking clockwork puzzles, not falling brick puzzles) could work beautifully, but then, I'm also crazy.
Though don't let anything I said take away from the truth (as you noted later, Bekkler) that it has to appear to be an RPG. It could be tic tac toe, and if it looks like an RPG, great. But if it's FFVI and doesn't look like an RPG, the project's doomed.
Maybe I'm old school, but it just seems so much easier to make a SNES-era style JRPG as our first outing and as a true Chrono Trigger spiritual successor.
The one problem I would see there is that while we want it to feel like a SNES-era JRPG, I think we'd want it to be notably different and tuned to modern gaming sensibilities. I think we might want to look at modern successful RPG's and see what concepts and techniques could be presented in a SNES-era-esq JRPG-esq format. The new Star Trek movies did this fairly well: they took modern sensibilities, wrapped them up in 70's concepts, and made something that largely felt like it could belong in both time periods.
So, I guess that would mean that I'm saying "SNES era JRPG feel"=good, "SNES era JRPG clone"=bad.
We need the "what" before we can move to the "how".
I agree, though I'd propose that the project might need a "who" before a "what." I really think that projects like this are made or broken based off that one or two people who'll drive forward like crazy until other people can't help but clamor to help. To my understanding, that is how Crimson Echoes got finished: the project "started," had problems, then some programming genius came through and starting doing almost everything themselves, until other people were... well, not falling over themselves to help, but definitely being less passive. Although, as CE proved, that person doesn't need to be the team lead, like had been previously discussed. Just someone passionate enough to get things done, and someone charismatic enough to make others want to help.
-
I don't know about you guys, but I at some point will begin this project. Why? Because there's a good chance my career depends on it. :)
The question is When. I'm just awaiting Alfador's response on the technical questions regarding LOVE Engine, so I can begin a game-document along with achievable to-do list and find ways to not only make the most of the resources but also delegate work to those who are willing to work Pro Bono, but will gain their fair share of royalties once we're done.
Of course, the game will be as simple as we can make it, while still keeping it playable and fun; this is just to get started, so I can get a platform to stand on and gain agency to produce more games (not much different from making a portfolio to get your own dream-job). And THEN comes the fun-part: Chrono Spiritual Successor (if I succeed in the first game, of course)!
Either way, I could either delegate the coding to a programmer (Alfador, or utunnels if he's available), or simply learn Lua myself. No, it's not a stupid idea; learning Lua can be beneficial in developing my prototyping skills, where I can create examples of user-interfaces for Software Development companies. Of course, that's simply because I haven't found a better system which can intersect with my other areas.
Anyone interested? It'll be so much fun!
(P.S.: If we end up using Lua, then it's bound to be 2D graphics. Except I'm going for High-Res graphics, because those are easier for me.)
EDIT: I forgot to mention -- the game production would be open-source and transparent. This is to make sure that much of the work is "distributed" and people are wiling to participate if they find it tempting. That, and transparency seems to make games go great! Of course, this also means that people who love to watch us make and give feedback will be able to play early beta for free.
-
Alfador redux's prince flung forward in time...
Personally, I'd like to see a little explanation for why he's flung forward in time and the circumstances surrounding it, although mainly just because a fairly cheap but highly effective trick for creating satisfying denouement is to reference things the the Main Character did at the beginning of the story again at the end. As such, the more we know about the beginning, the better the end can be.
Remember that item that fell from his hand and rolled away into the leaf litter? It's a sort of Time Key equivalent developed by the people with the pseudo-AT-ATs. He found it during the fight and activated it by accident, without having any idea of how it worked.
Or, alternate backstory that I considered at one point: someone from the far future was trying to summon someone from his era for help, and screwed up. (The object that rolled away into the leaf litter then becomes an heirloom or a memento of Liara which he wants very much to get back.)
-
Lua can be very valuable. I've shipped a commercial game that was written all but entirely in Lua.
-
Okay, so I dabbled around with Lua for a bit. Looks like it's the PERFECT language to make a 2D / Sprites-based game!
Now that we know "how" to accomplish it, let's focus on the "what".
So... what kind of game would have the best elements of an RPG, be called an RPG, but still be simple and interesting at the same time?
I'm thinking of completely ditching the "Inventory" idea, proposing a more limited selection of weaponry that can actually be used everywhere (inspired by Beat-em Ups and FPS) depending on needs. Ocarinas can put people to sleep, Wind Bows can help you double-jump / fly, Water Spears can help you surf the waves, Earth Armors can make you invulnerable, while Wind Tights can make you more agile, etc.
Now comes the battle system... any ideas, fellows?
-
I'd probably say an action-RPG sort of thing, though probably more simple, more akin to a beat-them-up, hack-and-slash, or platformer genre with a level-up system, and also taking your "auto-equip inventory" suggestion and give it an upgrade system to it.
-
I'd love to see the battles take place on the same screen as the playing field. Something that might be neat and tie in the RPG influence with the action-RPG and still feel fresh... What about taking inspiration from "new" RPGs? Like Oblivion or Skyrim (and maybe other Elder Scrolls games, I'm not very well educated on their features) when you pull out your weapon people act differently, as though you're threatening them, and might even attack you in some places.
How would that translate? Fairly simply, I think.
Have a button dedicated to drawing your weapons/putting weapons away (kind of like Zelda too, now that I think about it). A sort of "battle mode" button. I'm picturing enemies on the field just like in CT. They follow and attack you lightly when you're in "explore mode"(no weapon drawn). When you go into "battle mode" (weapon drawn) they attack harder and faster, but you can now attack back. In town, people might talk to you when you're no threat, but if you're in "battle mode" they're afraid of you and might even run away, or guards might come attack if they see you approach. If you can figure out how to make it work for a team instead of just an individual then that'd be great, and of course magic would have to be thrown into the mix as well.
So I guess my idea is take cool features from the systems used by CT, Zelda, Elder Scrolls, and Secret of Mana, then combine only a few from each to make something that works in a new way.
Just an idea.
-
...Or not.
Did everybody disappear?
-
Not that I know of.
Anyway, I think it's a little too complex. Not that it's a bad thing, but at least from what I get, this is starting as a small project before going all out.
-
What if you make it an RTB like Terranigma, but allow for the casting of spells like in Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded? Would that be do-able and easy? Turn-based battles, even the ones like Tales of Phantasia, get kind of boring after a while.
-
Well, Terranigma allowed you to cast spells, though I agree that it's system wasn't one of the best. Anyway, I'd say this is our best bet if we are to keep it simple and with an RPG feel.
Since you brought those games up, I'd say it's a good model to base a combat system out of it. Well, I can't say much of the latter games, but I do remember the first and II only ever had HP, MP, Strength, and Defense as stats, with AP for equipping abilities, while II only added Magic. Then with Terranigma it was mostly the same except it had Agility and instead of MP being an actual stat it was represented as an item you could increase the quantity of via a collect-them-all sort of quest.
Then both also had a likewise simple inventory system though KHII did shake things up by adding Synthesizing. It was simple and straightforward and didn't deter much from the action itself to worry yourself over it. Though then again, that's probably since what mattered most in the end was being the appropriate level and from what I remember, I didn't had to, say, equip element-resistant accessories as a vital thing... or something... and can't say much about Terranigma since it was also slightly lacking in that department. More like it didn't mattered much in the end save for one or two cases.
-
yeah, definitely some faults in them, but otherwise decent systems that I think could have been done much better with.
I was playing Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded and in some parts it was a little too easy. I played Proud mode from the moment I unlocked it on my grid and found it relatively easy to mix up abilities to get what I wanted as well as passing the little tests.
I was mostly thinking of just taking bits and pieces from various systems and combining them into one that would be simple, but far better than any of the sources by themselves. Kingdom Hearts, any of their games, is relatively too easy. It was easy to go through on the hardest modes provided, Proud, and whup everyone if you had any idea at all of battle strategy and experience with real time fighting. The problem for me, in the end, was that it wound up being way too easy as you progressed through the game with all of the combos and everything else you eventually had, and then once you found out the strategy of what you were fighting and fell into the rhythm of the boss, you were untouchable. Even with Sephiroth in the Coliseum.
With Terranigma, the movement was more realistic and you didn't have the advanced combos to rely on and had to use skill to beat the enemies, though it all became repetition by the end.
What you need is a third battle element that games like FF8 and Dragon Quest IX have, where enemies level up to match your level. (In DQIX, that's only in Grotto's, which are entirely optional. In FFVIII, it barely makes a difference because you far surpass the monsters regardless of their leveling after a certain point and the magic you can draw from the leveled up monsters, you should already have through your GF abilities. FFT is a great example, though for a different style of battle entirely.
Something lightweight and allowing free movement in battle, allowing the difficulty of monsters to scale with you, and allowing your back-up characters to act on their own or take orders from you based on your settings, but that would be kind of difficult to use skill combinations at certain points, so that kind of detracts from the Crono experience.
Saga Frontier is a good one. That has everything except the real time battle system, which I'm fairly certain I never thought they needed. I still haven't been able to go through and beat that game in its entirety, because they so adeptly scaled the difficulty to give you proper challenge as you advance. I'd say it's definitely on par with FFT for creating a challenging game all the way through. (though I have beaten FFT, so maybe it's better?)
-
Wait, are we still discussing 2D engine? XD Or have we have we moved on to 3D? Not that this time it matters, but it's good to know nonetheless.
If we're making an Action RPG, based on idioticidioms' and Acacia Sgt's ideas, I'd like to add...
Have a button dedicated to drawing your weapons/putting weapons away (kind of like Zelda too, now that I think about it). A sort of "battle mode" button. I'm picturing enemies on the field just like in CT. They follow and attack you lightly when you're in "explore mode"(no weapon drawn). When you go into "battle mode" (weapon drawn) they attack harder and faster, but you can now attack back. In town, people might talk to you when you're no threat, but if you're in "battle mode" they're afraid of you and might even run away, or guards might come attack if they see you approach.
I haven't played Skyrim, but here's how I imagine our game to be...
FPS in Third Person (LOL). If 3D game, buttons will be FPS-like, local axis. If 2D game, buttons will be Global-Axis, bird's eye view.
Move character with arrow buttons or WASD, or even with Mouse. Normally, the character will face ahead, wherever it goes (or wherever the mouse clicks to). But in Battle Mode, the character will move as normal except it will ALWAYS FACE towards the direction of the mouse. This is useful if you're playing as an Archer or Mage.
Double-Arrow press will give a "backslide" manoeuvre to dodge attacks. Mouse-wheel selects between Attack and different spells and combos (based on idioticidioms' Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded idea); OR we could have a Ragnarok Online style "hotkeys" (http://youtu.be/aIIvADqjEso). Click-And-Hold for continuous attack while standing or moving, but for some spells "Click-and-Hold" will be for charging and releasing would cause damage.
But... if we're going with this system, wouldn't it make sense to have "Online Play" along with this? Just a thought...
All this depends on whether we'd like a bird's eye view RPG. If we'd prefer side-scroller, then things may be different slightly.
Also, I don't think having complex "levelling" system would be a good idea for now, as it will only end up making the programming and planning complicated. We can, however, go for purely "stat-based" method. We'll also need to think of how to minimize "level drilling" that Final Fantasy forces on the players; how does CT / CC do it?
-
2D vs. 3D doesn't really affect gameplay style all that much.
I haven't played Skyrim either, but from what I've seen it's a fairly typical WRPG, which is really a different genre from JRPGs (more similar to the Zelda games, which I place in a different category, although some may disagree).
The simplest RPG stat system that I'm aware of is for the old pen and paper Fighting Fantasy RPG/gamebook series—three stats: Skill, Luck, and a HP-equivalent. It gets away with that by saying that all normal weapons do much the same damage if they hit at all. There's no built-in magic system, but the simplest of the bolted-on ones has magic cost HP. (There's no leveling system either.)
A more workable system would have about five stats: HP, MP, speed (how fast the character can act, how successfully s/he can run away), physical ability (governing the character's ability to hit and dodge), magical ability (cast spells and resist magic). Each weapon gets one stat (damage), each piece of armour gets one stat (damage absorbed). The flow of battle for a physical attack then goes like this: compare physical ability + a random for the attacker and the target. If the attacker's result is higher, the blow connects. Damage inflicted is weapon damage + random, and the target's armour absorbs as many damage points from the weapon as it can; the remainder is passed through and deducted from the target's HP. The algorithm can be tweaked by altering the range of the random numbers.
None of the Final Fantasy games from IV on actually requires much level-grinding—just completing most of the random battles the game throws at you (rather than running away) will get you in good enough shape to face the final boss, assuming you also complete most of the sidequest content and stick with the same group of characters where possible. Optional bosses are a different kettle of piscenes, of course, but you don't have to beat them to finish the game. CT/CC, being from the same studio at around the same time, probably use much the same technique, and one of the things that frustrated me about Crimson Echoes was that it wasn't balanced that way.
-
2D vs. 3D doesn't really affect gameplay style all that much.
It does (a bit), but we'll get into that later. :) I'm fine with anything, now that Lua seems to be pretty capable of boiling our recipe for an RPG.
So is everyone content with the gameplay I mentioned in my previous post?
Taking into account of Alfador's, I'll flesh the mechanics further:
Most of the stuff will be blatantly ripped off from here: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Stats_and_Status_Ailments_%28Chrono_Trigger%29.html
Important Stats: HP, MP, Strength, Agility, Vitality, Intelligence.
HP and MP are "regenerative"; that is, they restore bit-by-bit every second (or at least the MP does; HP restores every minute, unless you gain a passive ability like Wolverine). Strength determines Attack. Agility determines how fast a character moves, how swiftly it attacks, and how much it can "dodge" physical attacks. Vitality determines the amount of HP and regeneration, as well as Defence. Intelligence determines MP and regeneration, as well as Magical Attack and and Magic Defence. (Or shall we substitute "magic" with "Energy", considering many scientists in the team would be relying on sciencey Fusion or Plasma, or something?)
If we're going by THE mechanics I've stated, we've got an advantage: Marle and Lucca's weapons are no longer useless. While Ayle and Crono like characters tank from the front, Lucca and Marle can attack from behind. Having Archers and Snipers in the line of fire is a stupid idea. Way to go, Kato...
But if we're having a CT-similar system with two AIs following the player, then we hit upon a problem... How do we program the AIs well enough, depending on the characters we choose? We'll have to do so one-at-a-time, and I wonder if programming them will be labor intensive...
-
Well, I did say "all that much"—I admit it does a bit.
Good AI is difficult, and coding it depends on how the combat engine works. Of course, bad PC AI may be less of a problem if the monster AI is even worse...
-
I still think it's unneeded to have that Battle/Explorere Mode gimmick, at least for this initial project. Anyway...
Regarding allied AI, if it proves to be too much we could always just go for just one onscreen character but being able to switch. We could even implement the characters having a skill that can be used on the map to merit the switching around other than just for different fighting styles and stuff, kinda like how they do it in Lufia Curse of the Sinistrals.
-
Good AI is difficult, and coding it depends on how the combat engine works. Of course, bad PC AI may be less of a problem if the monster AI is even worse...
So, for a simpler mechanism and to avoid the AI problem, an easier approach would be a universal "pattern-based" battle, huh? Check this video for reference: http://youtu.be/_4ziElfzKHg
Basically: Move, move, Attack 1, Move Move, Attack 2, Move Attack 3, Move, Heal, Repeat.
And we could add to that: If Health < 20%, then heal; If Health < 25%, then unleash Dark Matter (30% chance).
But... how's that gonna affect gameplay? How do we "tweak" gameplay decisions to fit around this?
I still think it's unneeded to have that Battle/Explorere Mode gimmick, at least for this initial project.
I concur.
Regarding allied AI, if it proves to be too much we could always just go for just one onscreen character but being able to switch. We could even implement the characters having a skill that can be used on the map to merit the switching around other than just for different fighting styles and stuff, kinda like how they do it in Lufia Curse of the Sinistrals.
You mean like Contra Force (never played Lufa Curse of the Sinistrals)? Sweet! We'll take it.
-
A more workable system would have about five stats: HP, MP, speed (how fast the character can act, how successfully s/he can run away), physical ability (governing the character's ability to hit and dodge), magical ability (cast spells and resist magic). Each weapon gets one stat (damage), each piece of armour gets one stat (damage absorbed).
I would propose that this can be effectively simplified further. I wont bore you with the details of my thought process, but your mention of pen and paper RPGs got me thinking about the history of stats, and how (or where) they developed (from). So, perhaps the stat work can be shoved off onto equipment, thereby reducing total stats to just HP, Attack Damage, and MP. Or, in other words, three equipable classes of items. Armor grants any and all HP, a weapon (including items that allow for magic attacks) produce the damage stat only (probably in the form of a range of damage, like 2-8), and some other item that grants MP in the same manner as armor grants HP (that is, permanently lost when used). To hit, damage reduction, speed, resistance, etc. can all be tossed as interesting but ultimately unnecessary sophistication of the basic conflict resolution system.
To add a level of customization, though, perhaps each character has an ability list that is developed through story points. For example, find Robin of Scherlocksley and she'll train one person how to use Longbows. The player gets to select who learns that ability. Or the player find the Magic Johnsmith and he'll teach one person the "repair armor" spell. And so on.
Additionally, I'd propose going with a slightly Metal Gear Solid view of enemies: they are things to get past, but not necessarily defeat. If the party is trying to sneak into a factory, you can do this through fighting the guards, if you wish, but you can also do so through sneaking by, and both are valid. If we add in a time travel component, some of this sneaking could be done by shifting through time periods or the sort.
-
I still think it's unneeded to have that Battle/Explorere Mode gimmick, at least for this initial project.
I concur.
I was just tossing out an example of how you could merge RPG flavor and Action-RPG fighting. I think calling the concept a gimmick is undeserved as it's basically the way Secret of Mana, Zelda games, and Elder Scrolls attacks work, and those are not gimmicky battle systems at all. Can't attack without your weapon drawn, and once it's out a button that would've done something else now attacks. There's nothing flashy or difficult to understand about it. A gimmick is just a poor use of a good tool, and most (if not all) of the ideas being shared here could become gimmicks if not properly implemented.
But whatever, the end result is the same, you guys don't like it. As a matter of fact, I kinda wish you'd just said that. It's less aggravating.
-
I was just tossing out an example of how you could merge RPG flavor and Action-RPG fighting. I think calling the concept a gimmick is undeserved as it's basically the way Secret of Mana, Zelda games, and Elder Scrolls attacks work, and those are not gimmicky battle systems at all. Can't attack without your weapon drawn, and once it's out a button that would've done something else now attacks. There's nothing flashy or difficult to understand about it. A gimmick is just a poor use of a good tool, and most (if not all) of the ideas being shared here could become gimmicks if not properly implemented.
But whatever, the end result is the same, you guys don't like it. As a matter of fact, I kinda wish you'd just said that. It's less aggravating.
Don't misinterpret my words. Your post mentioned about both enemy and NPC having different behaviors depending if you had the weapon drawn or not. Many RPG's don't use this "feature" (since apparently you don't like the word "gimmick"), and I think the small project shouldn't either, as it's not really necessary since it's, well, a small project and we shouldn't cram a lot of and/or complex mechanics (I mention complex in the sense of how much coding it'll need to be added in comparison to not adding it in).
And don't put words on my mouth. I never said I didn't like it. What I only said is that is not needed for the simple project that will be done first, for the reasons I already explained in the above paragraph.
-
Don't misinterpret my words. Your post mentioned about both enemy and NPC having different behaviors depending if you had the weapon drawn or not. Many RPG's don't use this "feature" (since apparently you don't like the word "gimmick"), and I think the small project shouldn't either, as it's not really necessary since it's, well, a small project and we shouldn't cram a lot of and/or complex mechanics (I mention complex in the sense of how much coding it'll need to be added in comparison to not adding it in).
And don't put words on my mouth. I never said I didn't like it. What I only said is that is not needed for the simple project that will be done first, for the reasons I already explained in the above paragraph.
My point was simply that you completely dismissed my entire statement by calling it a "gimmick". The word has a meaning and a negative connotation. I didn't think I misinterpreted or put words in your mouth, I just thought it was kind of mean. If that wasn't your intent, all is forgiven. Even if it was your intent to be mean (which I doubt), I don't care much for arguing over it, but thanks for clarifying your meaning. :wink:
Moving on, if the real problem you have with the idea is that you think it would be too complex to use, I can understand that. However ironic, I was trying to offer a simpler system idea than what Tush was coming up with (which is creative and ambitious, but I think far more complex). It'd be even simpler to just have an "attack" button, but at some point there is a line you have to traverse carefully between a rewarding rpg experience(even a short one) and a repetitive action/fighting game.
I think the Scott Pilgrim game is a good example of an attempt at a short game that tries to combine several elements from other games but ultimately fails and ends up playing as yet another beat-em-up side-scroller. It has rpg elements, but only the bare minimum (collecting money from fights and spending it on items and equipment, getting experience and levelling up) and these elements are inconsequential in the long run. You can beat the game without collecting anything and the leveling is unnecessary, it only makes the game go by faster. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game, but it doesn't really do a good job at what it's trying to do, which is feel like a classic 8bit game or a mashup of several of them, or something. There are homages and nods to other games, like Final Fantasy, Super Mario, etc, but the references don't have much depth to them. If you have access to it, try it out. Just don't do that to Chrono is all I'm asking.
A collection of nods and winks does not a spiritual successor make.
Basically if it's supposed to be like Trigger/Cross and it's not an rpg, it'd better be super fun.
-
I still think it's unneeded to have that Battle/Explorere Mode gimmick, at least for this initial project.
I concur.
But whatever, the end result is the same, you guys don't like it. As a matter of fact, I kinda wish you'd just said that. It's less aggravating.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to aggravate you. XD
When I said I "agree" with not using the "gimmick" (in Acacia Sgt's words), I know I could have elaborated on why I did so. It's not because the idea was a gimmick (or wasn't). It was because it may be technically difficult to pull of. Not the programming -- that's easier -- but I'm talking about the sprites-creation (unless we go the 3D route).
I personally have no problems with this. But there's also an art to keeping things simple and enjoyable, while using minimum resources.
That said, because I'm from a different culture, I actually take the word "gimmick" not by connotation but definition. Basically something creative and unique, but may not exactly be relevant to the gameplay (and hence your idea that it's only a gimmick if it isn't put to use properly, so I'd like to know where you're going with this). But no worries; we can always make adjustments to the gameplay later to include this, if it's needed. Currently, we're only going for the bare essentials.
So, perhaps the stat work can be shoved off onto equipment, thereby reducing total stats to just HP, Attack Damage, and MP. Or, in other words, three equipable classes of items. Armor grants any and all HP, a weapon (including items that allow for magic attacks) produce the damage stat only (probably in the form of a range of damage, like 2-8), and some other item that grants MP in the same manner as armor grants HP (that is, permanently lost when used). To hit, damage reduction, speed, resistance, etc. can all be tossed as interesting but ultimately unnecessary sophistication of the basic conflict resolution system.
I actually like that idea, but when taken into account of "Few-but-Crucial" inventory that we've got going here, this idea becomes nearly useless... unless we can somehow refine it to fit into the core idea.
Alfador, would it be a far-fetched idea to have a FF2-style stat-system, where you gain stats based on what you go through in battle? Such as taking much damage would equal to gaining HP, or attacking more would make you gain more Attack stat? How complex is it compared to contemporary stats-system?
To add a level of customization, though, perhaps each character has an ability list that is developed through story points. For example, find Robin of Scherlocksley and she'll train one person how to use Longbows. The player gets to select who learns that ability. Or the player find the Magic Johnsmith and he'll teach one person the "repair armor" spell. And so on.
We can go a step further with Quests. Ordinarily you'd have to teach yourself how to use a skill / weapon from Level 1, but Quests would help any character quickly master it to Level 5 and begin the real game from there. However, while quests give you "quick-learning", taking it the hard-way -- by teaching yourself -- you gain some "extra bonuses". It's not too different from how Pokemon Emerald handles it: You can level your characters with Rare Candy, but you don't get the bonuses that they get by actually battling it out.
Additionally, I'd propose going with a slightly Metal Gear Solid view of enemies: they are things to get past, but not necessarily defeat. If the party is trying to sneak into a factory, you can do this through fighting the guards, if you wish, but you can also do so through sneaking by, and both are valid. If we add in a time travel component, some of this sneaking could be done by shifting through time periods or the sort.
This could go hand-in-hand with not only CT-style system, where most enemies can be avoided, but also the fact that you gain "nothing" (but a couple of stats) by involving yourself in meaningless duels, when you've got a giant bomb to deactivate. This would not only amplify the need of stealth, but also prime our gamers' brains to not procrastinate when handling an important pressuring task.
In other words, our game would be a psychological tonic for those who play it. Something like what Zen and contemporary Buddhism teaches. "Don't get involved in meaningless battles; focus your energy, and keep your eyes on the prize." :wink:
...I was trying to offer a simpler system idea than what Tush was coming up with (which is creative and ambitious, but I think far more complex).
You've lost me there... I'd like to know what about my suggestion was more complex, because I put a lot of thought into making this as simple as possible. Primarily, it may or may not be difficult to have pixel-based 8-directional movement (with Lua, not Ruby) and I think Alfador can correct me or support me here on that. Also, the mouse-target may not be too difficult either, since all we're planning is clicking on an object, DOTA-style, and the character attacks. It's not too different from button-press to attack on keyboard.
But maybe you've seen something I haven't. So please elaborate.
Basically if it's supposed to be like Trigger/Cross and it's not an rpg, it'd better be super fun.
Indeed. It's the fun we're aiming at, not the Nods-and-Winks and definitely not a rip-off, but we're definitely not anxious of influence either. :wink:
Think of it this way: The original Sherlock Holmes was a simple Mystery genre with its own flare, and nothing more. Pastiches since have tried to "capture every bit of that flare" without actually getting innovative, save for a few out there, and because of this the pinning influence like insects began to slowly kill the literature classic simply because they were trying too hard to create spiritual successors to Doyle's classics.
But then came Young Sherlock Holmes (by Andrew Lane, not Spielberg). It had nods-and-winks, but those were actually relevant to the plot and hence ingeniously used. It had the flair of intelligence from the originals, but without being entirely bound by the classics. Instead of a Mystery, this new pastiche was a Thriller -- an entirely different genre, but still one of the truest spiritual successors to the canon.
Even if we get into the context of gaming, we could agree that Radical Dreamers put off gamers as a sequel due to being non-RPG, but wasn't actually bad -- quite the contrary! It was a rightful spiritual successor despite being entirely different, despite being eclipsed by Chrono Cross. And if RD could do it, why can't we?
Also, I'd implore people not to take my statements to mean that I don't want an RPG. I actually do want an RPG! But my preference and bias won't restrain my creativity when coming up with something entirely new or better. I'm the kind of fellow who ditches the anchor of focus to be able to fly with limitless spirit (though I agree this has its own shortcomings). In other words, I'm simply adapting to make sure wherever we go we actually end up succeeding.
-
Alfador, would it be a far-fetched idea to have a FF2-style stat-system, where you gain stats based on what you go through in battle? Such as taking much damage would equal to gaining HP, or attacking more would make you gain more Attack stat? How complex is it compared to contemporary stats-system?
From my understanding, this could potentially be much easier to code than a traditional EXP system, since we wouldn't need to code enemies giving EXP, the characters gaining it, the structure with quantities and values for the leveling up, then the stat ups for each leveling up if the stat ups were dynamic, etc.
For the former it'd be just a matter of coding various commands of "If X then Y", in a matter of speaking, then just make X be an increasing value for every time Y happens via a counter sort of thing.
Well, I'm probably just seeing this via Turbo C (I think it was Turbo C) language, since that's the only programming structure I've studied up.
-
I actually like that idea, but when taken into account of "Few-but-Crucial" inventory that we've got going here, this idea becomes nearly useless... unless we can somehow refine it to fit into the core idea.
Well, it will also depend on the length of the game. Three weapons for each character might not seem like much, unless the game is just a half hour long. "Few-but-critical" wouldn't fit with "items=stats" over a long game, but if the game itself is shorter, the two ideas might mesh nicely.
-
So, perhaps the stat work can be shoved off onto equipment, thereby reducing total stats to just HP, Attack Damage, and MP. Or, in other words, three equipable classes of items. Armor grants any and all HP, a weapon (including items that allow for magic attacks) produce the damage stat only (probably in the form of a range of damage, like 2-8), and some other item that grants MP in the same manner as armor grants HP (that is, permanently lost when used). To hit, damage reduction, speed, resistance, etc. can all be tossed as interesting but ultimately unnecessary sophistication of the basic conflict resolution system.
Vandal Hearts 2 uses a system like that, IIRC.
I actually like that idea, but when taken into account of "Few-but-Crucial" inventory that we've got going here, this idea becomes nearly useless... unless we can somehow refine it to fit into the core idea.
Alfador, would it be a far-fetched idea to have a FF2-style stat-system, where you gain stats based on what you go through in battle? Such as taking much damage would equal to gaining HP, or attacking more would make you gain more Attack stat? How complex is it compared to contemporary stats-system?
Basically, that only requires adding a few hooks to the combat system (and possibly the magic system, if any). For instance, for a successful attack, if the attacker is a PC, he exercises his attack stat (whatever it may be). If he's exercised it x number of times, the stat goes up. Each stat does become two variables, but they're not especially difficult to track or manupulate. The trick is to balance things so that the player doesn't end up spending a lot of time grinding against low-level monsters (punishing grinding doesn't work nearly as well as making it unnecessary in the first place!).
One of the more . . . hmm, I'll say "agreeable" . . . exercise-based systems I've played is the skill system from the indie roguelike/RPG GearHead (cf. gearheadrpg.com ). It allows you to raise skills by exercising them, by using undifferentiated experience points to buy skill levels, or by paying a trainer NPC to exercise your skills for you. That doesn't qualify as a simple system, though.
You've lost me there... I'd like to know what about my suggestion was more complex, because I put a lot of thought into making this as simple as possible. Primarily, it may or may not be difficult to have pixel-based 8-directional movement (with Lua, not Ruby) and I think Alfador can correct me or support me here on that. Also, the mouse-target may not be too difficult either, since all we're planning is clicking on an object, DOTA-style, and the character attacks. It's not too different from button-press to attack on keyboard.
The most difficult part of eight-directional pixel-by movement is dealing with collision detection (if you're curious, tush, that demo I was passing around elsewhere uses 2px as the minimum movement distance). As for mouse-clicking, if the PC must first move to the target, potentially with obstacles in the way, you need some form of pathfinding (A* is the most common, and not especially complicated if you're dealing with limited amounts of space). In the absence of obstacles, it reduces to ray-casting, more or less (that is, you draw a line between the PC and the enemy and have the PC walk along it until he makes contact). If the player can't use mouse control to move to something, I'd suggest forgetting about the mouse and using either a keyboard control or just bump-to-attack.
-
Yup, I've played the demo. 8)
I actually didn't intend movement to be based on mouse-clicks. I meant just for attacks, similar to most 3D RPG games, such as Ragnarok Online 2: Legend of the Second (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcPcqudj32o). You only use the mouse to click stuff and attack.
But of course, that doesn't mean we can't have the mouse-based movement as something optional. We could have a menu where we can "Enable Mouse" for a refined game, and option for "Lock to Target" so that player only follows the mouse. Disable all that, and we've just left simple-keyboard based Zelda-style system (which works too, but which also immensely annoys me) which would assure that we can port it on devices (unless we're using high-quality modern sprites, especially for Retina-display).
EDIT: This should (sort of) illustrate what I'm talking about. Try it out! http://armorgames.com/play/2802/
Hmm! I just hit upon an idea... if battling (and hence wasting time) random creatures for level grinding gives you stat-bonuses, then why not also have a special bonus for avoiding battling creatures? Sure, the players would be able to finish the game quickly (as if we'd allow that -- hah! -- we'll set a few dog-monsters loose at them) but by avoiding creatures, they may receive special abilities, such as "Cloaking" that helps them go invisible, or something like that.
-
Now, I'd like to go back to story and scope for a moment. If we want a small game to start off, a sprawling time travel epic is probably not a good choice...but let's look at sidestory possibilities. That would give us something that ties in with the eventual larger game to create something bigger than either of them alone. At the same time, it needs to be a reasonably complete story, with no more loose ends than necessary.
We could cover the history of any of the eventual characters, of course, but just for the heck of it, let's go back to the prince's friend/girlfriend Liara, lost somewhere in time. So. She lands in the far future. She has the clothes on her back, one valuable piece of jewelry, a knife, and a few magic tricks. No ID, no friends, no prospects.
She pawns her [necklace, probably] to get a bit of money. She finds out where to get fake ID, but it's a shady area of town. This gives us Dungeon #1.
Having gotten the ID, she finds out that it doesn't help her nearly as much as she expected it would—there's no educational or work history to go with it, so she can't get a job unless she wants to 1. wait tables in a dubious bar with implications of prostitution on the side, or 2. join the infantry. She opts for the infantry.
Pulling a page from the David Lynch Dune movie, let's say that fancy shielding tech has made most guns obsolete in the far future—to penetrate a shield, you need something that can keep physical pressure on it for a while, an energy source capable of overloading it (big energy drain if you want more than a few shots), or something that moves more slowly than a bullet. Also, the three-legged race between communications and disrupting same means that drones and other remote-controlled ordnance aren't very reliable most of the time. As a result, swords and spears in the hands of foot soldiers are once again favoured weapons.
There's an opportunity during the military-training segment for tutorials and/or minigames (button-mashing pushups, frex, or gambling at night in the barracks for useful items). The grunts are sent on their last training mission before graduation, and Something Goes Horribly Wrong (natural disaster, enemy attack, AT-AT-oid from the past drops out of Time and onto their heads, etc.), giving us Dungeon #2. Liara manages to distinguish herself during the scramble to get out and is recruited for Special Ops, or something of the sort.
There follow around 3-5 missions, each with a different theme (retrieve the cached information, find out what's inside the building, make sure the hostage doesn't talk—we don't care if you shoot him or rescue him, steal valuable prototype from enemy weapons facility, etc.) Liara continues to distinguish herself, and is promoted. At the same time, she has to conceal the fact that she knows magic, because that would prove she Isn't Who She Says She Is (and probably get her vivisected in the bargain). During her spare time, she can return to Dungeon #1 to level up if she wants to do so.
Her last mission has to 1. tie back into the time travel theme somehow and 2. result in her doing something really impressive against the enemy-of-the-moment of the people she's working for (I'm open to suggestions). She gets a medal for it, and a good-sized bonus. She uses the money to go back to the pawn shop from the beginning of the game and buy back her necklace. The last scene has her opening the attached locket and looking at the picture inside, which is of her and Prince What's-his-name, and reflecting on how she isn't the person in the picture anymore.
One of the bonuses of this kind of story is that it's viable to make many of the NPC designs semi-interchangeable—different heads on one military-uniformed body. Also, we could have a PC party or just Liara as sole protagonist, depending on how we want to go about things.