Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: chronotriggerfreak on January 03, 2004, 03:10:41 pm
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I've recently been playing through the game again to remember some of its finer details for my fictional rendition of it, Into the Dream. As I played through the section of the game where Marle/Nadia vanishes in 600 A.D., I noticed something odd.
In most families, and in most cultures, male children carry the good name and heritage of the family through generations. Such is the case often with royalty as well, evident in the history of European monarchies such as England, France, and Spain. When no male child is born, the Queen is often throned, which may cause some sort of an uproar, or at least a general upsetting. And not to mention when no child or descendant exists, what havoc may occur! Such is not always the case, such as with Elizabeth I and other Tudor women, but if possible, a male is always crowned first.
To the point. Marle is a direct descendant of Queen Leene after 400 years, no? In 400 years, there were, what, 12 generations of the royal family? Now consider this: if Marle, or Marle's mother, is still on the throne, does the Guardian crown pass through the female child?
Not necessarily, but that is one of few possibilities. As near as I can tell, Guardia's inheritance is odd no matter what choice you pick:
1. The crown is given to the female descendant, and the kings marry into the family.
2. For 400 years, the crown has passed on to the male child, and after 400 years of breeding outside the royal family and royal genes, the Queen's heir has just now married back into the family. Although, this still allows for Marle to be genetically disturbed instead of it all just being teenage hormones.
3. The Queen marries her brother?! Ugh...
So, which possibility, or if you can support another, do you think is correct?
Personally, I choose number 1. It seems to me that Crono was marrying into the royal family, rather than Marle marrying into Crono's family. And if I'm not mistaken, weren't Crono and Marle mentioned as the last King and Queen at some point in Chrono Cross? I can't be sure, but even so, the former opinion still remains mine. This would present an interesting tidbit about Guardian culture, no?
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Also, in the kingdom of Zeal, it appears Queen Zeal reign normally, I mean, when the King died, she keeps on being the Queen. Janus is not made king and Queen Zeal 'regentess' during his childhood.
In fact, I think this system has apparently always been in place: Ayla in Ioka, Azala with the Reptites, Mother Brain with the Robots, ...
...even FATE and the Dragon God in CC are female...
...and even the Time Devourer (although it might be cuz of Schala).
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I know I've discussed this with some other Compendium members (at least ZeaLitY, certainly), and we've come to the conclusion that choice number 1 is most likely. I think you can find our discussion on the old site, or possibly somewhere on the OCR Master Thread.
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Good point, Chrono'99, and I'll have to look for that thread. I remember this always used to bug me when I was younger, and it does provide some insight as to some lesser themes implemented into the Chrono series.
Azala was female?
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Azala was female?
arh.
Now that you mention it, I'm not really sure.
I checked both CT and CC scripts, and there's not even a clue...
(but these where incomplete scripts...)
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It always seemed to me that Azala was male. He didn't really seem feminine.
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There is some binding fact that dictates Azala is female, but I've forgotten it as well. I think it may be an official statement from Square, but I'm a bit wary of 'official statements' considering their rumor-like nature and since Nintendo states outright that the 'One of you is close to someone that needs help...Find this persona, fast!' quote refers to Lucca's mother, which is...kinda dumb.
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Regarding the Guardia Royal family, I think it's stated that Nadia married in to the royal family 10 years ago. So Queens can marry in.
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Regarding the Guardia Royal family, I think it's stated that Nadia married in to the royal family 10 years ago. So Queens can marry in.
Nadia? I think you're talking about Aliza?
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Ah, thanks for catching that. I'm a bit sleep deprived at the moment, I'll try to check up on whether it was Aliza or Leene.
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That may be quite possible with Leene, but despite whether Aliza married into the family, she would still have been part of the family in the first place, since we know Marle is a descendant of Leene. Therefore, if the bit about Aliza marrying back into the family is true, then option number two would be correct. We know, though, that Marle and therefore Aliza is a descendant of Leene.
Unless the game was using a connotation the word "descendant" in this context to mean that she isn't of Leene's direct lineage, but rather being the child of Aliza and King XXXIII, she has the genes of the royal family in general, which is another possibility and would fall under #4.
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It is indeed Leene, who married into the family around 590 A.D. I believe that perhaps the system may have worked on males until that point, and then have operated on females. King Guardia XXI's name when speaking in the script is usually GUARDIA:, as if it were his name. This is only a small point of interest though and may not hold much weight in discussion.
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It would hold more interest if we knew King Guardia XXXIII's name in the script, which, by your discussions about ripping the entire thing, either you or GrayLensman must certainly know, Zeality. If he is indeed given another name far different, this may be interpreted as further proof that XXXIII is indeed not of royal descent, although it is a far stretch.
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...Bah, this is indeed the only instance:
CYRUS: Yes, it's time we took back the
Medal from the Frog King.
And I'd like to see that mythical
sword for myself.
GUARDIA: But Cyrus, the kingdom needs
you!
And Leene and I need you.
You must return to us!
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Is that the only instance of Guardia XXI being called that, or just the only instance in your half of the script?
I guess what I mean to say is, does the script ever refer to him as something else?
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That is the only time he is referred to as GUARDIA. Nonetheless it stands reason to strike that he has the family name, considering Leene marries into the family. Lensman and I both have the whole script file.
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Out of curiosity, still, what is he referred to the rest of the time, and what is Guardia XXXIII referred to?
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KING GUARDIA or nothing at all.
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Blargh. Well, it was hopeful. Thank you for the insight, nonetheless. And I should enjoy being able to look through that script when you're all done; it would be most helpful for Into the Dream, seeing as how even when I play through the game as I write it I still seem to forget important lines and details. :wink:
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I think all the royal families in the game (including Ayla, although she hasnt been denoted as queen) are of the same lineage. What I'm trying to say is that; maybe all the families are the same family. Traditions could have passed on from generation (starting with Ayla the cheif all the way to Queen Zeal) and may have ruptured since there wasnt a direct heir. After regaining controls in the A.D's they could have went back to original traditions.
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Impossible that the Zeal Royal Family had anything to do with the Guardian Line, simply because after the Ocean Palace disaster, there were none left. Well, at least in the original timeline, Queen Zeal and Schala are MIA, and Janus is sent to 600ad, and when Crono interfers, Janus is in the DBT, Schala merges with Lavos, and Queen Zeal is in the Black Omen.
I selected 'other'. Don't think Inheritance is passed down based on gender, rather I think its passed down by age. The eldest child, regardless of gender, would be heir to the throne, and heir's future husband/wife would be married in.
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Maybe its possible that there was an order to who would inherit the throne, somewhat like who becomes president once one President is removed/dies.
For example, it might be:
-eldest Son, then if there is no son:
-eldest daughter
-cousin, etc
Of course, its hard to prove any theory, as we obviously only have about 5% of the total family tree b/w 600 and 1000 A.D. But its entirely possible that the ones we knew about existed solely because here wasn't a male heir to inherit the throne.
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Hm.. I'm confused, why does the inheritance have to be odd?
I see it like this:
KING GUARDIA - QUEEN LEENE
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KING GUARDIA - SOME OTHER QUEEN
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(etc, etc, etc)
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( KING GUARDIA - QUEEN GUARDIA
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PRINCESS NADIA (MARLE)
So if 600ad King Guardia's successor is not born because Leene is out of the chain, then the royal line (if it even exists anymore in the alt-1000) is completely different, so Princess Nadia is not born.
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Actually rather than Queen Guardia, its Queen Aliza, whom I think married into the family. Queen Aliza, it said so in the game.
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Yes, I believe Aliza was Nadia's/Marle's mother. But I don't recall hearing anything about her marrying into the family.
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So none of you buy the "Eldest child is the hier" idea?
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So none of you buy the "Eldest child is the hier" idea?
Could be it but there is absolutly no proof about it and no proof that any heir had a brother/sister.
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Plain and simple, how likely is it that, with no proof to make us think one way or another, the eldest or only child for thirteen generations was a female? And for all you who think Aliza married back into the family, recall that in the sequence where Lucca explains Marle's heritage to Crono, the little sprites of Marle's ancestors wear that queen/princess getup. While that doesn't really mean anything, I suspect that was used to support the idea that they were all members of the royal family.
Although odd to people with our Western European roots, the "inheritance passed down through females" explanation is the simplest, and therefore the most likely.
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If we take that sequence of Lucca explaining Marle's harritage, then we would also have to take there being only 3 or 4 (can't remmber which) generations of women between Leene and Marle.
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Thanks for missing the point.
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No problem.
We don't know that every single generation of hiers of Guardia were female. It was apparent to me that Leene was married into the family. Why would this be any different?
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:D Hi, everyone! This is my first post on the Chrono Compendium. You may know me from the GameFAQs boards as dacb1984. :D
Now for the matter of Guardia's line of succession:
Observation 1
- Young Woman, Truce Residence, 1000 A.D.: "Hard to believe Guardia is now 1000 years old, and our King is the XXXIII descendant to the throne!"
Conclusions:
- Since King Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd ascendant to the throne, we can conclude that all previous monarchs were called King Guardia. (However, see my endnote.)
- Guardia's crown has always been passed on to a male heir.
Observation 2
- Lucca: "Marle, that is, Princess Nadia, is a descendant of Queen Leene."
- Princess Nadia is a dead ringer for her late mother, Queen Aliza.
- Princess Nadia is a dead ringer for Queen Leene.
Conclusions:
- Queen Aliza was a dead ringer for Queen Leene (by syllogism).
- Queen Aliza was a direct descendant of Queen Leene.
- Queen Aliza and King Guardia XXXIII were distant cousins (since they are both direct descendants of Queen Leene).
Observation 3
- Throughout Crono's adventures in 600 A.D., it is clear from King Guardia XXI's words and actions that he, and not his wife, is in charge. The following quote is but one example:
From Zeality's Text Dump:
[Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.]
KING: Hello!
You're always welcome here.
What can I do for you?
...
Frog: We asketh a favor...
...
KING: I get it. You want me to keep
that huge shell safe here until the
next century, right?
LEENE: I ask for the sake of [Frog].
Please carry out their request.
KING: Done!
I shall obtain the shell and store it in
the castle, as a national treasure.
- Also, note that the King's throne is much larger than the Queen's. :D
Conclusion: King Guardia XXI is the monarch, and his wife, Queen Leene, is his queen consort. Of course, this conclusion follows directly from Observation 1, but I mention it nevertheless to strengthen my point that the line of succession is through male heirs.
SUMMARY: The crown in Guardia is passed on to male heirs. King Guardia XXXIII, Marle's father, is of royal blood and was, presumably, heir to his father, King Guardia XXXII. Marle's late mother, Queen Aliza, was never heir to the throne, although she is directly descended from Queen Leene. (Perhaps King Guardia XXI and Leene had two children and one became King Guardia XXII and the other sired Aliza's great great great...and so on...grandfather.)
I should stress here that Queen Leene and Queen Aliza are 12 generations apart, so Marle's parents are only distantly related. I imagine that King Guardia XXXIII and Aliza would have been aware of their relation when they were married, but it is certainly not uncommon (at least in our universe) for royalty to marry cousins, let alone extremely distant cousins.
Anyway, I hope this resolves all of the issues.
~ Sir Frog (aka dacb1984)
Endnote: Of course, if you interpret the woman's quote literally, then King Guardia XXXIII is the 34th monarch (since he is the 33rd descendant), meaning that there must have been one monarch whose name was not King Guardia. There are two possibilities: either a King assumed a different name or there was once a regent (i.e., ruling) Queen. However, Queen Leene was certainly not a monarch, as concluded from Observation 3.
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Another thought about Marle being Leene's decendant:
Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too. I don't see how "direct decendant" would imply on gender or another.
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Quoth Sentenal:
Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.
Sentenal, did you not read my post? I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene. This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins. The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs. In other words, it's irrefutable.
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Quoth Sentenal:Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.
Sentenal, did you not read my post? I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene. This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins. The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs. In other words, it's irrefutable.
Could Aliza not simply be a Guardian noblewoman of a branch of the Guardia Royal Family? For example, say Queen Leene had two sons. One became King Guardia XXII, and the other (we'll call him Paul) simply becomes a noble. Later on, King Guardia XXXIII marries a woman from Paul's branch of the royal family, Aliza...
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Epsilon, did you not read my post?
To quote myself:Summary: The crown in Guardia is passed on to male heirs. King Guardia XXXIII, Marle's father, is of royal blood and was, presumably, heir to his father, King Guardia XXXII. Marle's late mother, Queen Aliza, was never heir to the throne, although she is directly descended from Queen Leene. (Perhaps King Guardia XXI and Leene had two children and one became King Guardia XXII and the other sired Aliza's great great great...and so on...grandfather.)
So, to answer your question, not only is it possible that Aliza is a member of a different branch of the Guardia family, but it is also probable.
I put quite a bit of effort into my first post on this thread (which, incidentally, was my first post, period) so I am a little dismayed that nobody has bothered to read it. If it doesn't answer all questions on the subject, then by all means, question my conclusions. But please, at least read my first post before needlessly debating points that have been covered.
~ Sir Frog (aka dacb1984)
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Quoth Sentenal:Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.
Sentenal, did you not read my post? I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene. This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins. The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs. In other words, it's irrefutable.
Do you realize I wasn't refering to your post? And where does it say Queen Aliza looked like Queen Leene? If you are refering to Marle looking like Aliza, and looking like Leene, thats not proof. Thats theory. She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza. And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?
I did read your post, and don't get so hostile when people don't agree with all of it. Your conclusions are possible, but not certain.
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Sorry. I did in fact know you weren't referring to my post. I suppose that's why I became upset when I saw that you suggested precisely what I had already suggested (and backed up with evidence). That's all.
Quoth Sentenal:She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza. And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?
Regarding your comment, you are correct that nowhere in the game does anyone say Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene. However, it is established that each of them is a dead ringer for Marle. Below are the relevant quotes (which I confirmed using Zeality's Text Dump):
Soldier, Guardia Castle, 1000 A.D.: "Princess Nadia's a dead ringer for her mother. That's why the King's so strict with her."
Leene's Attendant, Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.: "Which means the real Leene was somewhere else. It's exactly as I thought. But you're [Marle] a dead ringer for her."
So, there you have it. Marle is a dead ringer for Leene, as well as for Aliza. By syllogism (i.e., A = B and A = C, therefore B = C), Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene. Since a dead ringer is a person who is almost identical to another, there is no way Marle could be a dead ringer for two people who themselves look only similar to each other.
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Okay...I only briefly glanced over Sir Frog's Conclusions and such...So, bare w/me if I'm totally fucked and repeating anything...
What about Crono becoming the King? He's not an heir, yet, he acquires some kind of crown...
Is it possible that last names AREN'T passed from males like in our world? Perhaps they are carried on through the women?
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You raise two interesting points. It is certainly possible that last names are not passed down at all. (In fact, there is little reason to believe that they are. Think of the size of Truce. Crono could simply be "Crono of Truce" for all we know. But I digress.)
What is certain is that all of Guardia's monarchs (with the possible exception of one; see the endnote in my first post for more details) have assumed the name King Guardia. However, I would bet my right arm that King Guardia XXXIII has a first name. That is, I doubt that people called him Prince Guardia XXXIII when he was growing up!
What about Crono becoming the King? He's not an heir, yet, he acquires some kind of crown...
I assume you are referring to the Playstation ending FMV. Crono receives a crown because he becomes a prince by marrying the princess. That is all we know for sure. It is uncertain whether Crono would become King Guardia XXXIV once the current king dies. Perhaps Marle would become the monarch (i.e., Queen regent) and Crono would simply be a prince. (Compare this to the present day situation in the UK where the Queen is of royal blood and her husband, Prince Philip, is not a king.)
Once again, all we know is that historically, all of Guardia's monarchs have been kings (again, with one possible exception). And since the game makes it pretty clear that King Guardia XXI is Marle's ancestor, I think it's safe to assume that Guardia's crown is passed on to the king's son--if he has one. When the king has no son, as is the case in 1000 A.D., the game gives no indication who the heir to throne is. The next monarch could be the king's daughter, or it could be whomever the king's daughter marries, or it could be someone else entirely. The chancellor, for instance. Who knows?
(If you're wondering why I suggested the chancellor, recall that when King Guardia is found guilty of stealing the Rainbow Shell, Yakra XIII--posing as the chancellor--believes he is next in line. Just thought I'd throw that in there for the sake of completeness. :D )
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Sorry. I did in fact know you weren't referring to my post. I suppose that's why I became upset when I saw that you suggested precisely what I had already suggested (and backed up with evidence). That's all.
Quoth Sentenal:She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza. And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?
Regarding your comment, you are correct that nowhere in the game does anyone say Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene. However, it is established that each of them is a dead ringer for Marle. Below are the relevant quotes (which I confirmed using Zeality's Text Dump):
Soldier, Guardia Castle, 1000 A.D.: "Princess Nadia's a dead ringer for her mother. That's why the King's so strict with her."
Leene's Attendant, Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.: "Which means the real Leene was somewhere else. It's exactly as I thought. But you're [Marle] a dead ringer for her."
So, there you have it. Marle is a dead ringer for Leene, as well as for Aliza. By syllogism (i.e., A = B and A = C, therefore B = C), Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene. Since a dead ringer is a person who is almost identical to another, there is no way Marle could be a dead ringer for two people who themselves look only similar to each other.
Its also remarked that Marle looks much younger than Leene, younger than how she looked on her wedding day.
As for the PSX ending, I assume that is simply a cerimonial crown, showing that he is now a prince.
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What is certain is that all of Guardia's monarchs (with the possible exception of one; see the endnote in my first post for more details) have assumed the name King Guardia. However, I would bet my right arm that King Guardia XXXIII has a first name.
This seems logical to me. A parallel can be drawn to the papacy; for example, Pope Benedict XVI was named Joseph Ratzinger, but I imagine he has been nearly exclusively referred to as Pope Benedict since his inauguration.
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In most families, and in most cultures, male children carry the good name and heritage of the family through generations.
This is due to Christian interference with structure, and Constantine's want to make Jesus devine and make males have more power than females. Before that alot of people were pagan (no, that's not devil worship, most worshiped a goddess, or the sun) and family structures were matriarchial. Christian leaders in the 4th century pushed really hard to supress the power of the goddess by saying they were evil, devil worshipers, etc, along with tossing out the bible books that expressed Jesus as a mortal. But this is all besides the point. :shock: There isn't any Christian ties to the Chrono universe that I know of, maybe besides the Cathedrial, (no sign of them practicing a Christian ritual there) so we can assume that family structures were possibley matriarchial, as apposed to patriarchial.
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What? No. ALL anicent civilazions have had male dominance, regardless of religion.
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Beside the Amazons, they were the only ones, but they don't count as an ancient civilization so what am I talking about. Amazons were the reverse, they "stole" their men from tribes and only used them for sex and pro-creation, im pretty sure they were mostly lesbians, one breasted lesbians.
Also another thing I thought about, just because they're named "King" doesn't necessarily make them male in all cases. I learned about a pharoah-ess from Eygpt who took over her husbands throne after death, and ruled as pharoah, the male part. She went on to have statues with beards and what not, i have not a clue what her name is. But yeah, also, another thing, the Queen could be behind the whole operation of the King. What I'm trying to say is the King would be a puppet to the queen, so really the Queen is the true ruler, but the king carries it out. This is how most weak rulers [kings] lived their lives.
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What? No. ALL anicent civilazions have had male dominance, regardless of religion.
???
Native American tribes held women in high regard, and were matriarchial. Forgive me, it's late and I dont feel like researching ancient matriarchial tribes, but there were quite a few, maybe even moreso than patriarchial.
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well I know the names in french, there were the Iroquoïen and the Algonquien, Iroquoïen were Matriach(ich?) and NOT nomad while ALgoquien were nomad and patriach(ich?), I don't know which was dominant but I think they were much difference by number, but it make more sense that non-nomad would be more.
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Lets see...
Every Far-Eastern civilization, every middle-eastern civilazation, greek, Roman, Germanic... All of them are male dominated. Even in native-american tribes, males are the chiefs.
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The statement that ALL civilizations, ancient or otherwise, were male-dominated and patriarchal is absolutely false. I have not the time to look up specifics, but I do know that some African tribes and some North American tribes were matriarchal, and I'm pretty sure that more were matrilineal (which is what we're talking about here; I personally still think Guardia was patriarchal but matrilineal, which is rather odd).
Yes, to say that the majority of human civilizations were/have been male-dominated, patriarchal and patrilineal is a true statement, but to say that all of them were is absolutely and unequivocably false. Do your research before you go about making an ass of yourself.
And Sir Frog, your assertion that both Guardia XXXIII and Aliza were descendants of XXI and Leene is possible, and fairly likely, and irrefutable, but it's also not quite provable. The only sure thing is that Aliza (and therefore Marle) was descended from XXI and Leene, or at least certainly from Leene (see the Frog Princess ending, though I'm not seriously about to believe that as anything more than a joke). So please stop getting offended when people don't take your assertions as absolute fact. You make a good argument, but it's not fact.
Ultimately, there is no way for us to be absolutely certain on this matter. I think there are two likely scenarios: Either the Guardia line is patriarchal but matrilineal, or Aliza married back into the Guardia family by marrying a (possibly distant, possibly not-so-distant) cousin.
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Plus its the Kingdom of Guardia. Not the Queendom of Guardia lol. But then again, the UK is ruled by a queen... so...yeah.
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I think there are two likely scenarios: Either the Guardia line is patriarchal but matrilineal, or Aliza married back into the Guardia family by marrying a (possibly distant, possibly not-so-distant) cousin.
Your idea of a matrilineal yet patriarchal monarchy is interesting. It certainly is consistent--for the most part--with what is presented in the game. However, the statement made by the Truce woman is at odds with your suggestion. She says that King Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd descendant to the throne. If the crown truly were matrilineal, the woman should have said that the king married the 33rd descendant to the throne (thereby becoming the 33rd ascendant)
Of course, I suppose one could argue that the woman actually meant this but chose to use fewer words.
EDIT:
Plus its the Kingdom of Guardia. Not the Queendom of Guardia lol. But then again, the UK is ruled by a queen... so...yeah.
That's a actually an excellent point! Regarding your UK counterexample, the reason the UK is currently ruled by a Queen is that Elizabeth had no brothers. There was no male heir.
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Inquiry
How does the royal line of the Kingdom of Guardia operate? Does it work through male or female heirs? The facts:
Marle is descended from Aliza, who is descended from Leene.
Theories
Male Heirs
Under this idea, the son or daughter of King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene would have eventually produced Queen Aliza, who would have had to marry back into the family (barring outright incest). This is fine, as twelve generations would have separated their genetics. This idea is supported by the fact that King Guardia XXI is definitely large and in charge during 600 A.D. The royal family may also be extensive enough to allow varied descendants of Leene to exist.
Female Heirs
Usually, males marry into the family. An exception was made when Queen Leene married King Guardia XXI, as a female heir may not have been available. The line proceeded with males marrying in all the way to Marle, who married Crono (and by extension he became a regent). This system is evidenced elsewhere in the game. When King Zeal dies, Janus does not by default become King; rather, Queen Zeal remains in her position. (Note that this is mainly a coincidence.) Sexism is also seemingly absent, as even Ayla was able to be chief in prehistory due to her strength and merit. The Kingdom may be matrilineal but patriarchal. This possibility is wounded slightly by the fact that King Guardia XXXIII is referenced as the 33rd descendant of the throne; this simply may be a turn of phrase, however.
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I favor the Male Inheritance, myself. It could be that between Leene and Marle, there were no male hiers, so they had to go with Queens. Or King Guardia XXXIII was the hier, and married a distant part of the family that descents from Leene. But with Guardia XXI's power, and the line saying Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd descendant to the throne (come on, it doesn't get more explicit than that), seem to imply Male hiers except for cases when there is none, in which case its defered to the female.
But really, there is another theory I like more, and its not based on gender. The Eldest child, regardless of Male or Female, becomes hier to the throne. That would work for just about all cases you can come up with, with whatever gender is hier or not. And the Elest child being the family hier is quiet common too, to my knowledge at least (though its normally the eldest son).
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I'd like to note that Schala is mentioned to be the Crown Princess to the throne.
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One thing that should be considered in this argument is the fact that the animation shown when Lucca is talking to Crono might not be literal. This game was made for kids, and the programmers might have felt that the fact that Leene was Marle's descendant needed some visual explanation. We can know that we can't take the animation as hard fact because of the fact that the animation only shows 4 women. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be more than 4 generations in 400 years. I honestly doubt that the queens would wait until they turned 100 to have their children.
As to the actual argument, I would have to say that it seems that it's either patrilineal or eldest child descent. It doesn't seem to be matrilineal because the King is described as the descendant, not the spouse of the descendant, to the throne. One could argue that the king isn't described in this way in 1000 because the queen is dead, but in 600 is seems pretty well explained that the king is the descendant to the throne. It could also be eldest child descent with the king just happening to be the eldest child in his family. I don't think we can ever truly know about this one though.
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Forgive my english
This is what I believe
it could be an Absolute primogeniture, is a law in which the eldest child of the sovereign succeeds to the throne
Marle (Nadia) is the first born child that make her the crown princess to the throne and Chrono is just her husband
Another possibility is male primogeniture but the successor to the crown must be member of the Guardia dynasty, for example in the eastern Roman Empire Zoe and Theodora were the last of their dynasty and corulers of the empire (Macedonian Dynasty)
Zoe in particular tried to get pregnant in order to preserve her dynasty linage (that means the male married into the family)
So Guardia could be rule by a male primogeniture law as longer there’s a male if not, the female become the regent of the kingdom (like Zoe and Theodora in the eastern roman empire) and her husband changed his surname and become part of the dynasty line, in this case Chrono will become Chrono Guardia
But I think is matrilineal or maybe Absolute primogeniture
lets remember one of the CT ending where Frog marry queen Leene
In that finale Nadia was still princess of the kingdom
This is my theory
I think queen Leene was a noble from a small branch of the Guardia Line
king Guardia died from his injuries and just what happened in real life when the main branch of the habsburg died it was a small branch of who got the kingdom, the habsburg-lorreine dynasty
So probable the king died without heir, Leene was queen and also member of the Guardia family that make her rightful ruler of the kingdom and then frog married her and her children are still Guardia because males married into the royal family
That would explain why Nadia is still princess of the Kingdom
After all the kingdom name is Guardia only a Guardia can be ruler
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Talk about bumping an old thread. :shock:
I'm inclined to believe that Guardia is a more or less typical monarchy, where the eldest son is declared the rightful heir to the throne except in cases where there are only daughters to succeed the monarch. If there are no children at all, the rule of the kingdom passes down to the oldest surviving sibling of the ruler. What the game depicts as the line of descent from Leene to Nadia cannot be relied upon since there are only a handful of women shown, and King Guardia XXXIII is not shown at all. It could suggest a matriarchal society where the king rules only in cases where the queen has died, but I think this is unlikely because Nadia clearly has no authority over her father when we see them together. There is also no in-game evidence of Leene having authority over King Guardia of the middle-ages.
I prefer to defer to the expanded lore of Chrono Trigger when examining these kinds of questions. The lore that establishes the name Cedric Guardia as the founder of the kingdom. Using Cedric as a gold standard for expanded lore opens up interesting possibilities for lines of descent, such as what happens when a ruler dies but has no children or siblings to succeed him/her. Normally in these cases the spouse of the deceased then becomes the head of a new dynasty. In Guardia however, the ruler must, by law, be a proven descendant of Cedric regardless of any other considerations. (The kingdom is named after him, after all.) Therefore, a long-lost cousin twelve generations removed from the royal family would have more of a mandate to rule than a queen with no direct line of descent from Cedric, even if this cousin were a pauper. Because the kingdom understandably would be thrown into some disarray if this happens, marrying a distant relation into the royal family proper is considered prudent and even desirable, especially if they are very young. In my novel series, I depict Queen Leene as this distant and youngly-wed relation. When we see her in the year 600 she is both confident and poised, a result of eight years of education and experience in the castle. That her husband is half-mad and 22 years her senior does not intimidate her. She is fully prepared to rule if her husband cannot, and the history that Crono, Nadia, and Lucca know establishes Leene as perhaps the greatest ruler Guardia ever had. King Aldren, by contrast, is remembered mainly for dying of illness shortly before the Battle of the Span. (The battle of Zenan Bridge in original canon.)
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like Lennis said the heir must be a proven descendant of Cedric
without dna test the only way to keep the rule "only cedric children will be rulers" is daughters succeed the ruler
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So... am I missing something? Because Marle could be a direct decedent of Leene even in the first male heir system.
600AD Guardia has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). ... Who has 1000AD Guardia. Who has Marle.
Though personally, I kind of like the eldest child theory, just because. Really, they're all possible.
Also, side note, people keep bringing up how tribes hold women in high regard, etc. This is true, though I don't know how many have the leading... But also note that small tribes under Dunbar's number behave very differently from larger nation like societies. I can't think of an exception to the male dominated (though sometimes I think dominate is too strong a word) large civilizations.
Also, also, I realize this is an older thread, but I like it, so.