Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion => Topic started by: Azure on January 19, 2008, 07:53:03 pm
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Why is it that in the beginning of Chrono Trigger, Marle gets on the telepod and she gets sent to the past, and the pendant stays, but when Crono goes on the telepod he takes the pendant with him?
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Entity.
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Oh yea let's just throw out the Entity line anytime there's an inconsistency in the game. The more blunt truth about this is that there are holes in Chrono Trigger that aren't explainable.
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Another explanation I've heard is that she just dropped it and Crono kept a tight grip on it.
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The Entity created the Gates and caused that reaction, as Lucca even postulates. Its not unreasonable to conclude that the Entity also controlled the parameters of that event, like what happens to Marle's pendant.
Or, you can just say that Yuuji Horii screwed up again. But we have a reasonable answer, so it needn't be a plot hole.
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Another explanation I've heard is that she just dropped it and Crono kept a tight grip on it.
I've always thought this. Never really thought it could even be anything else.
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Another explanation I've heard is that she just dropped it and Crono kept a tight grip on it.
^This sounds so much better than that Entity crap.
Plus there doesn't have to be an Entity anyways. The characters only speculate about it over the camp fire.
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Then who created the Gates?
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Did Kato ever explain anything about the Entity aside from the fact that it's literally the planet itself? The Entity must have a consciousness to have planned out events as it did; leads me to view the Chrono world as infused by an intelligent spiritual presence, sort of like the Lifestream, and perhaps related to the Nu in some way. The PSX North American release instruction book says Crono was chosen by "guardian spirits," but that's easy enough to write off as translation weirdness unless it's backed up by hard proof from Kato himself.
EDIT: Waitaminute, now my CT instruction booklet says nothing about these "guardian spirits." Did I make that up? Could have sworn I saw it somewhere...
EDIT: Says it here...
http://www.fantasyanime.com/squaresoft/ctabout.htm
Did that "guardian spirits" thing appear in the SNES instruction booklet? Thus making it a Woolsey-ism? And hey, someone needs to let that site know to add Prophet's Guile to the Fanbase Accomplishments section...
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Then who created the Gates?
Lavos. It's pretty obvious Lavos was the cause for the gates. You see him crash into Tyrano Lair in 65M, and then a gate appears right there. Then again in 12,000 BC you see the three gurus and Janus get engulfed by gates when getting near Lavos. Also, at the end of the game when you beat Lavos the gates disappear. If the Pocket Dimension theory is right then that means Lavos has some kind of control/intereaction with time so it makes sense that it created the gates.
It also seems like the gates or time travel in general can be created though magic or technology too.
1) Luccas Telepod technology interacts with Marle's pendant creating a gate.
2) When you first fight Magus he is summoning Lavos with a huge gate.
3) Belthasar created the Epoch which can travel to any time period
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Ah, so it's all magic chance by Lavos, yet somehow, all the way to 1999 A.D. no other Gates were created by science.
There's a reason people in the game outright state that Lavos isn't responsible, and that the planet can and does dream. The Entity's existence is perfectly logical, whereas needing Lavos to create the Gates involves a ton of random chance.
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Ah, so it's all magic chance by Lavos, yet somehow, all the way to 1999 A.D. no other Gates were created by science.
There's a reason people in the game outright state that Lavos isn't responsible, and that the planet can and does dream. The Entity's existence is perfectly logical, whereas needing Lavos to create the Gates involves a ton of random chance.
Why does technology have to create a gate between 1000 and 1999? Lucca created one by accident. And the only pure technologically created gate (the Epoch) was made by Belthasar in 2300. The gate to 1999 is there because Lavos appeared there. It's not just random chance that all these gates pop up right where Lavos has interacted. And they don't ever state that Lavos isn't responsible, they are just talking about what they think over a campfire.
If the planet really is doing all this dreaming you're talking about then why doesn't it conjure something up in Chrono Cross to save itself from the Time Devourer? If it wasn't for Belthasar creating his elabortate plan the planet would've been doomed. If what your saying is true then why didn't another set of gates just magically appear to help some group go around and save the planet?
Plus, after Lavos is destroyed the gates magically disappear, but the Epoch still works. If the Epoch was confounded to only work with Entity gates, as you put it, then why would the Epoch still work? hmmm?
Whatever though. Think what you want, but there's NO entity, and the planet doesn't have a consciousness of it's own or anything like that.
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(http://chronofan.com/Zeality/picardno.jpg)
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Wow, I didn't think it would turn into a debate over the existance of the Entity...
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Wow, I didn't think it would turn into a debate over the existance of the Entity...
Haha, me either.
Zeality why must you always use that picture?
It's funny to me, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't help your argument in the eyes of the opposing poster.
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Zeality why must you always use that picture?
It's funny to me, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't help your argument in the eyes of the opposing poster.
He's pointing out the ignorance in the poster.
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There's no real use in arguing with him. Everyone else here knows that 1) the planet had a part in Project Kid, 2) the planet is stated to "dream" in both CT and CC's final chapters, 3) that Lavos could create the Gates in a manner that allows him to be conveniently defeated requires stupidly ludicrous chance, etc., etc.
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There's no real use in arguing with him. Everyone else here knows that 1) the planet had a part in Project Kid, 2) the planet is stated to "dream" in both CT and CC's final chapters, 3) that Lavos could create the Gates in a manner that allows him to be conveniently defeated requires stupidly ludicrous chance, etc., etc.
Lavos would only have to create ONE gate in order to be defeated, the gate to 1999. There's no reason for a whole multitude of gates. And I didn't mean Lavos purposefully created the gates. I said that the gates were created because of Lavos' prescence.
And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity. All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there. No one seems to be able to prove it.
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And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity. All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there. No one seems to be able to prove it.
Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.
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And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity. All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there. No one seems to be able to prove it.
Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.
Oh yea, because that has a lot to do with what we're talking about doesn't it? That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. This is a discussion about the plot of a game, not a religious debate. And by the way, I've read the Encyclopedia entry on this site about the Entity and I don't buy it. So if anyone's going to use that as proof of the Entity's existence forget about it.
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Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.
EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter. :P
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg
I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...
But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...
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Zeality why must you always use that picture?
It's funny to me, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't help your argument in the eyes of the opposing poster.
He's pointing out the ignorance in the poster.
I know what it means, but the poster doesn't. If anything it would just infuriate him even more to continue his argument as is. I was just giving Zeality a hard time is all. Just for the fun of it.
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Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.
EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter. :P
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg
I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...
But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...
Finally. An intelligent answer. I can agree with what this guy has to say. Althought the only thing that would convince me about the Entity is a direct statement from Masato Kato. That lighter doesn't do it for me either. Why can't "the planet" be the people of the planet? Why does it HAVE to be the planet itself?
And YES the picture of that guy from Star Trek did infuriate me (well maybe not infuriate). I hate Star Trek.
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Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.
EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter. :P
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg
I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...
But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...
Finally. An intelligent answer. I can agree with what this guy has to say. Althought the only thing that would convince me about the Entity is a direct statement from Masato Kato. That lighter doesn't do it for me either. Why can't "the planet" be the people of the planet? Why does it HAVE to be the planet itself?
And YES the picture of that guy from Star Trek did infuriate me (well maybe not infuriate). I hate Star Trek.
Read the first part; the cover of the lighter:
The dream our planet once had
Defeated the darkness
And brought forth a brighter future
However this was also the dawn of
A new nightmare
This clearly refers to the events of Chrono Trigger, which were unknown to an overwhelming majority of the people to have ever lived. It couldn't have been the dream of the people on the planet; it was utterly beyond the scope of their knowledge. It wouldn't make sense for that to refer to the people of the planet, and if it was meant as a reference to our heroes (and the other people of knowledge who aided them on their way) it would have refered to a small group of heroes, since it's absurd to use "the planet" to refer to "a dozen people".
The only sensible way to interpret that is to say that the planet refers to the conciousness of the planet itself.
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The text on the lighter originally came from the Chrono Cross instruction booklet, so it's not a random blurb.
In any case, Masato Kato never had to "confirm" that the planet was the Entity, since the Japanese version of CT was pretty much clear about it and there never was any mystery to begin with. Compare with Janus: do you need Kato to confirm that he's really a young Magus? No, it's never really directly stated word for word in CT (no "I am Janus"), but it's implied and sort of indirectly stated, so it appears pretty much obvious.
Translator Ted Woolsey was the one who made things more complicated than they were by creating a specific name, "Entity" (with a capital E), even though the Japanese version only spoke about dareka (someone, something, etc.) and the planet.
Some people out of Japan find it curious that CC never tells us much more about the Entity. But in fact, CC had a better translation than CT as Richard Honeywood was directly assisted by Masato Kato. So, that's why it never uses the name "Entity" (although it does use the generic terms "entity" and "entities", presumably as simple vocabulary tributes); it just speaks about the planet, and people sometimes don't realize that it's the very same thing as the CT "Entity".
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And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity. All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there. No one seems to be able to prove it.
Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.
Oh yea, because that has a lot to do with what we're talking about doesn't it? That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. This is a discussion about the plot of a game, not a religious debate. And by the way, I've read the Encyclopedia entry on this site about the Entity and I don't buy it. So if anyone's going to use that as proof of the Entity's existence forget about it.
The point of it was people believe in God, but we have no proof that God exists. Chrono and company believe the Entity exists, but there isn't any proof.
But now that I look at you, I just see another Troll.
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I beleive in god. I mean really, I looked up that quantum mechanics stuff.
Doesn't really make sense to me at all. :(
I think there is an entity. I mean, it was said in the game that there is. So it must be. Plus, I agree with the theory that the entity is the spirit of the earth rather than a diety figure.
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Well, as for THE ACTUAL TOPIC...
Marle is simply wearing the Pendant, perhaps it requires real, physical contact with the Dreamstone artifact itself, not just, y'know, w/e the necklace-part is made of so that Crono holds on tight, he's actually gripping the Pendant itself...then again, maybe it was all chance and it has a faulty clasp or something...I mean, HOW old is that damn thing? lol
Anyways...as for the Entity...
One thing that doesn't make sense about the Lavos theory is the Red Gate. There is no Lavos interaction at that point, certainly and the same can be said about several of the other gates. Even the gate that appears at his initial crash site doesn't make a whole lot of sense for that idea...I mean it just happens to appear right on the EDGE of the crater? Right there for Crono & Co to find? It might also be necessary to explain the gate on Mystic Mountain, which is there BEFORE LAVOS ARRIVES! And to just throw out Robo saying that after 400 Years of thinking he doesn't believe Lavos is responsible for the gates, as if it's just a technicality that the writers threw in for no good reason is just the most flippant sort of response you can make. etc.
EDIT: Lookit me! Contributing to something that should be in the Analysis thread! It's been so long...go fig it's one of the OLDEST TOPICS IN THE COMPENDIUM HISTORY...V_V
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<B>It might also be necessary to explain the gate on Mystic Mountain, which is there BEFORE LAVOS ARRIVES!</B>
Good point. This is something I didn't think about. I can admit when I'm wrong.
But, I still don't buy what Zeality said in the 2nd post of this Topic. The Entity is not the reason Marle's pendant stayed behind. Crono probably had a good grip on it.
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I think it's easy to fall back on the Entity theory for stuff like that because of Marle's disappearance which is so highly attributed to the Entity's intervention (say that five times fast!)...But I like to think that the Entity only steps into it very lightly, trying not to give away it's presence...but w/e...with things like Masa & Mune...it's all up for interpretation, I suppose...
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ive always jokingly believed that when lavos goes #2, he craps out a time portal, and thats how they all came to be.
but figuring out how marle left the pendant and crono didnt is like trying to figure out how lucca could make a gate key without having any connection to the portal itself (since she didnt have the pendant)
i guess shes just really, really, really... ..really smart!!?
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I don't think the Pendant is necessary to open gates...Interacting with the Telepod is what supposedly created the first gate, but of course, w/the Entity that's kind of thrown into the wind more or less...Though it's debatable that Schala's gate-closing ability could be attributed to her Pendant, I suppose...*shrugs*
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I don't think the Pendant is necessary to open gates...Interacting with the Telepod is what supposedly created the first gate, but of course, w/the Entity that's kind of thrown into the wind more or less...Though it's debatable that Schala's gate-closing ability could be attributed to her Pendant, I suppose...*shrugs*
Schala's pendant, otherwise known as the Astral Amulet, has shown to have an effect on time and space in both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.
In Trigger:
-Schala's pendant allows her to transfer Magus, Crono, and your two teammates out of the Ocean Palace.
-The pendant reacts with the Telepod's signal to open a gate.
In Cross:
-The Astral Amulet is needed to cross between dimensions.
-It's mentioned that whenever Kid was in a life threatning situation the pendant would rewind time.
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Schala's pendant isn't the Astral Amulet. Kid is given three items; the first is the pendant, given to her by Schala; the second and third are the incomplete Time Egg and the Astral Amulet, which is a pouch bearing Zeal's crest containing a magical piece of wood. The Time Egg and the Amulet may be one and the same, but since they are spoken of as separate items, it's inconclusive.
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Schala's pendant isn't the Astral Amulet. Kid is given three items; the first is the pendant, given to her by Schala; the second and third are the incomplete Time Egg and the Astral Amulet, which is a pouch bearing Zeal's crest containing a magical piece of wood. The Time Egg and the Amulet may be one and the same, but since they are spoken of as separate items, it's inconclusive.
You know what? Once again Zeality proves to me how WRONG he is about most everything in these games. The Astral Amulet and Schala's Pendant are the SAME.
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Now go ahead Zeality. Go ahead and post your Star Trek picture. You know you want to.
The only reason you have for believing that the Astral Amulet and Schala's Pendant aren't the same is because the artwork is different. That's NOT a good enough reason. The Hero Medal looks amazingly different too and I don't see you saying that that's a different medal.
By watching the anime ending in the PSX Chrono Trigger you see Kid being picked up by Lucca, and Kid has a pendant around her neck. The only thing Schala could have given Kid was her pendant, the Astral Amulet, because that's all she had with her in the Ocean Palace.
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The only reason you have for believing that the Astral Amulet and Schala's Pendant aren't the same is because the artwork is different. That's NOT a good enough reason. The Hero Medal looks amazingly different too and I don't see you saying that that's a different medal.
Pierre finds a different Hero's Medal. His medal looks starkly different from the original, though the tech Medalsome evokes the image of the original piece (acknowledging canonically that Pierre's is different).
(http://chronofan.com/Zeality/picarddamned.png)
[Lucca]
That's the amulet Kid
always had so dear to her
heart!
If you look carefully you'll
see that the design on the
cloth bag is the ancient
kingdom's royal crest.
Inside the bag is a
wooden pendant.
[Young Man]
Schala's pendant was made from the
same red rock as the Mammon
Machine.
Schala left her baby daughter-clone with her ancient pendant, possessing magical powers. This was to safeguard her daughter-clone in life-and-death situations. The pendant would rewind time a little, sending her daughter-clone into a safer point in the immediate past.
Doreen:
Look closely...
See that?
Masa:
Hey!?
It's the...
Mune:
...the Time Egg?
Doreen:
Yes.
Although it's not in
its complete form.
Masa:
Did that girl with
the glasses make it?
Doreen:
Probably.
Even though it's in its
incomplete form, if we can
focus our powers into it...
So, we have wood inside a cloth bag helping to cross dimensions, a pendant imbued with magical powers that keep Kid safe, and an incomplete Time Egg (Time Eggs, as illustrated in Chrono Cross's own design from Belthasar, are not wooden or pendant-shaped). Prove that any one of these items is the same as the other.
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Considering that he hasn't responded in a while, I find this troll...
OWNED!
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Hey, I finally got around to starting up the retranslation (SOMEONE could have told me not to try patching it to the JP version of the ROM)...and after going through the whole Telepod scene again, it got me thinking...I mean, it's not too much of a stretch that the Pendant would fall from Marle because the Telepod disassembles Marle first...plus, the Telepod hadn't been tested on humans prior to Crono & Marle, so it was kind of up in the air as to whether clothes would travel at all! lol
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Considering that he hasn't responded in a while, I find this troll...
No just no. I am not a troll. All of my opinions were well sunstantiated and made perfect sense. I stopped responding because I'm tired of arguing with you compendium fanboys, Zeality most of all. There is no changing anyone's mind here because you all think that you're the only ones who know anything about the Chrono series.
With that said I'm done here at the compendium because I disagree with most of what's on this site. Unless it's straight from the Dream Team's mouths you all need to stop calling your "insights" fact.
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Oh, also, did we go over how Lucca was supposed to get through the gate w/o the Pendant in the beginning? I think that makes it pretty clear that it isn't necessary to open the gates...Apparently the Pendant just made the first gate appear in the first place (or you could say Entity) and the Telepod opened it.
And I don't understand Trixter...where do you think we're getting our information (which we've been debating with one another over the past years)? I mean, do you think we're just pulling shit out of our asses here or something? I mean, if you think that's the case, then by all means, point out our faults. There are areas we've already gone through from various angles, but it's always possible for someone to come up with an entirely new theory that may fit (it's just very rare)...
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(http://chronofan.com/Zeality/carlwinslowned.jpg)
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I lol'd at "Compendium fanboys". I don't see how that proving everything you've said to be incorrectly stated to be so wrong. It was put bluntly yet in an intelligent way. Either way you should be happy and not raging over something so pointless.
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guys, trixter takes his chrono seriously...
...maybe too seriously.
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[...] I stopped responding because I'm tired of arguing with you compendium fanboys, Zeality most of all. There is no changing anyone's mind here because you all think that you're the only ones who know anything about the Chrono series.
[...]
What a dick! And a total moron at that. :lol:
Seriously, he just contradicted himself. EXAMPLE:
[...] With that said I'm done here at the compendium because I disagree with most of what's on this site. Unless it's straight from the Dream Team's mouths you all need to stop calling your "insights" fact. [...]
Meanwhile at the beginning of the sentence...
[...] All of my opinions were well sunstantiated and made perfect sense. [...]
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Hi there, i just joined this forum,
only to be greeted by a disgruntled member leaving it..
about the pendant question, i don't think that
it was caused by the entity, although I do believe that the entity
exists.. Maybe Marle just got startled because some big, dark, portal
opened up behind her, and dropped the pendant as a result..
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Hi there, i just joined this forum,
only to be greeted by a disgruntled member leaving it.. [...]
Don't worry about it, he was obviously trying to pick a fight (especially with Zeality; a senior member, mind you.); one he couldn't win, so he threw a fit and left... :roll:
about the pendant question, i don't think that
it was caused by the entity, although I do believe that the entity
exists.. Maybe Marle just got startled because some big, dark, portal
opened up behind her, and dropped the pendant as a result..
A little coincidental, as a good majority of things in the Chrono Series are, at least, symbolic in nature. But, it is still a reasonable conclusion and a possible scenario altogether.
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Oh, ok.... Thanks anyway..
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vincent, that actually makes sense to me (without going into some indepth theory).
or maybe it was just a plot gimmick.
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Oh, ok.... Thanks anyway..
I'd have to agree with your theory, Vincent. I find it more likely that she dropped the pendant, rather than the "Entity" leaving it behind.
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Don't worry about it, he was obviously trying to pick a fight (especially with Zeality; a senior member, mind you.); one he couldn't win, so he threw a fit and left... :roll:
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Just because Zeality runs this site, that doesn't mean he knows any more about the Chrono series than anyone else.
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these people are just out to get you are they? I have yet to see what you did wrong to deserve this. well you were wrong, and kinda rude about it(but so was everyone else). Well, good luck ZeaLitY going to win.
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I have been face-deep in the Chrono series since 2003. The knowledge is crystallized.
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He must be a masochist or something, he keeps coming back for our insults.
And yeah, don't show up just after you have played the game the first time and expect yourself to be automatically right. We have been researching this shit for years.
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He must be a masochist or something, he keeps coming back for our insults.
And yeah, don't show up just after you have played the game the first time and expect yourself to be automatically right. We have been researching this shit for years.
You are an idiot. I bought Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross game the years they came out, and I've played them each countless times. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours make me wrong? If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
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If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
WTF
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You are an idiot. I bought Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross game the years they came out, and I've played them each countless times. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours make me wrong? If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
Trixter, I think you had better stop insulting members, lest you want to receive a blow from the ban hammer. (Obviously, I don't hold that power, but it's pretty obvious where this situation is headed.) Any third party can obviously see that *you* are the one being zealous and aggressive. Argue, maybe. But, when you start to personally insult/attack other members, otherwise known as flaming, *that's* crossing the line between friendly argument and petty personal attacks. So I'd settle down if I were you and return to a friendly tone. :wink: Obvious Examples:
1. Once again Zeality proves to me how WRONG he is about most everything in these games.
2. Now go ahead Zeality. Go ahead and post your Star Trek picture. You know you want to.
3.I stopped responding because I'm tired of arguing with you compendium fanboys, Zeality most of all.
4.That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
5.You are an idiot.
6.If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
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Whoa.. I didn't imagine that a
simple question like that would turn into a heated debate..
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He must be a masochist or something, he keeps coming back for our insults.
And yeah, don't show up just after you have played the game the first time and expect yourself to be automatically right. We have been researching this shit for years.
You are an idiot. I bought Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross game the years they came out, and I've played them each countless times. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours make me wrong? If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
While I certainly don't condone where Trixster's gone w/this, nightmare975, you've gotta admit, that was getting a touch elitist...
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If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
WTF
That just made my morning.
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My two cents..
Lets say she dropped it. That would mean that once the portal is open, she gets broken up into peices thanks to the telepod, dropping the amulet before that. Once Crono gets on he *doesn't* drop the amulet. Doesn't that seem like a bit of huge luck that Marle would drop it? Not only that but then Lucca has to make a gate key *without* the amulet, which is true, but up until I read this, I always thought thats how she made the gate key =/
If we say its a higher entity, then Marle didn't drop it and it wasn't broken up into peices because the entity wanted Crono to go through the gate, setting off a chain events. That is what the entity wanted to happen but if I'm not mistaken, its the only time the entity directly influences something like that. It may have done things such as the gates but gates and making Marle drop her amulet are very different, in my view.
I think it is just going with unsatisfactory answers. Perhaps that can be explained in Chrono Trigger + =)
Have a great day everyone.
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I dunno, having something like that open right behind me would at the very least startle me. I can only assume it's loud, radiates some kind of force, and carries a generally strange aura of it's own.
I really don't think it's out of the question that it scared the heck out of her and she dropped the amulet. I've dropped things for less than portal through time.
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Well, yeah, if she was just holding it in her hand then the surprised theory has at least some credibility...but it's in the form of a necklace...Exactly how shocked do you have to be to drop something that's wrapped around your neck?
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Well, yeah, if she was just holding it in her hand then the surprised theory has at least some credibility...but it's in the form of a necklace...Exactly how shocked do you have to be to drop something that's wrapped around your neck?
Good question. Another good question is how hard did Crono have to run into Marle to send her necklace flying several feet when they first met. Even running full speed, it is a bit odd that her necklace, that was wrapped around her neck, was able to even come off, let alone travel several feet in the air.
Yet the necklace come off when Crono ran into her, so it doesn't seem like a huge leap to then assume it could fall off due to surprise (or a light breeze, in this case)
Also, when Crono is destroyed by Lavos the necklace survives. Perhaps it was dropped yet again?
Given that its been around for 13,000ish years, the clasp just may not be what it once was.
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Well, yeah, if she was just holding it in her hand then the surprised theory has at least some credibility...but it's in the form of a necklace...Exactly how shocked do you have to be to drop something that's wrapped around your neck?
I was going with the assumption that when Crono ran into was broken and thus could no longer be worn properly. That being said, it does begin to radiate from her chest so it has to have been around her neck - and on that note I humbly revoke my argument.
Unless of course it was being stored in that nifty storage space that only women have, but that would have certainly secured it from being dropped or lost due to suprise.
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maybe it can phase through matter...
aw, who am i kidding.
it's all just plot ploys to advance the story... but then again... maybe it just has a crappy latch. maybe dropping it and it getting knocked off is a fairly common occurance for marle...?
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Obviously the necklace's latch is the Ran Cossack (http://www.comixpedia.org/index.php?title=Bob_and_George#Cast) of the Chronoverse.
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He must be a masochist or something, he keeps coming back for our insults.
And yeah, don't show up just after you have played the game the first time and expect yourself to be automatically right. We have been researching this shit for years.
You are an idiot. I bought Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross game the years they came out, and I've played them each countless times. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours make me wrong? If anything it makes you wrong because last time I checked I'm more important than you.
While I certainly don't condone where Trixster's gone w/this, nightmare975, you've gotta admit, that was getting a touch elitist...
Fight fire with hotter fire, I always say.
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It a pendent so couldn't she be wearing it like a broach or something? those can fall off easily.
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Also, when Crono is destroyed by Lavos the necklace survives.
That's a good point...I think it's easy to forget (so early in the game especially) that the Pendant seems to have a mind of it's own. I personally have believed for a long time that, like Masa & Mune w/the Masamune, that Doreen is able to reside within the Pendant, and that all of them are in fact some kind of avatars of the Entity...certainly it's conceivable that they'd be easily manipulated by the Entity, seemingly coming from Dreamstone, which in turn comes from the planet...
It a pendent so couldn't she be wearing it like a broach or something? those can fall off easily.
I don't think so...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/6/6e/Pendant.png)
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Considering that when Crono bumps into Marle at the fair, the thing flies off as if she was holding it. Necklaces and pendants don't just fly off like that when you wear them around your neck. While it is a pendant, perhaps she prefers to hold on to it, like a lucky rabbit foot.
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I think it's easy to forget (so early in the game especially) that the Pendant seems to have a mind of it's own. I personally have believed for a long time that, like Masa & Mune w/the Masamune, that Doreen is able to reside within the Pendant, and that all of them are in fact some kind of avatars of the Entity...certainly it's conceivable that they'd be easily manipulated by the Entity, seemingly coming from Dreamstone, which in turn comes from the planet...
You know, that is actually the most satisfying solution I've heard so far. It isn't a pure "the entity did it" cop-out, but it also doesn't involve dumb chance like saying that the pendant just happened to fall off (or that Marle just happened to drop it, etc).
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Trixter, I think you had better stop insulting members, lest you want to receive a blow from the ban hammer. (Obviously, I don't hold that power, but it's pretty obvious where this situation is headed.) Any third party can obviously see that *you* are the one being zealous and aggressive. Argue, maybe. But, when you start to personally insult/attack other members, otherwise known as flaming, *that's* crossing the line between friendly argument and petty personal attacks. So I'd settle down if I were you and return to a friendly tone. :wink: Obvious Examples:
[/quote]
"If banning is to be done, let it be done! If the compendium is to be destroyed, so be it! If it is my fate to be banned, I must simply laugh!"
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dude, just drop it already...
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Trixter, I think you had better stop insulting members, lest you want to receive a blow from the ban hammer. (Obviously, I don't hold that power, but it's pretty obvious where this situation is headed.) Any third party can obviously see that *you* are the one being zealous and aggressive. Argue, maybe. But, when you start to personally insult/attack other members, otherwise known as flaming, *that's* crossing the line between friendly argument and petty personal attacks. So I'd settle down if I were you and return to a friendly tone. :wink: Obvious Examples:
"If banning is to be done, let it be done! If the compendium is to be destroyed, so be it! If it is my fate to be banned, I must simply laugh!"
[/quote]
Here is the line | Here is your joke...
Epic fails~
Seriously though... That was a bad joke.
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"If banning is to be done, let it be done! If the compendium is to be destroyed, so be it! If it is my fate to be banned, I must simply laugh!"
Laugh all you want troll, I hope you're banned, I like seeing Yakra once in awhile.
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Aw come on. Had Zeality typed that joke and put down his little Star Trek picture you all would have laughed. Stop being hypocrites.
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Aw come on. Had Zeality typed that joke and put down his little Star Trek picture you all would have laughed. Stop being hypocrites.
For the record Trixter, I hate Star Trek. And I did chuckle a little when I read your line.
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I thought it was pretty funny lol.
Anyways, he/she hasn't done anything to even be considered for banning.
Arguing on a forum, even if it is with Zeality, is not against the rules.
Hell, it's probably encouraged.
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I thought it was pretty funny lol.
Anyways, he/she hasn't done anything to even be considered for banning.
Arguing on a forum, even if it is with Zeality, is not against the rules.
Hell, it's probably encouraged.
Amen brother, let him speak
And I think V is close to something, I hadn't thought of Doreen in the pendent.
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yeah, i agree. we don't know WHAT object doreen is an avatar for...
i'm actually REALLY starting to buy this theory.
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yeah, i agree. we don't know WHAT object doreen is an avatar for...
i'm actually REALLY starting to buy this theory.
Well has the game ever said who made Schala's pendant? I think it just says that the pendant is made out of "the same red rock as the mammon machine." The only reason why I ask is because Masa and Mune are suppose to embody Melchiors dreams in the Masamune. So who's dreams would Doreen be embedding into the pendant? Perhaps Schala made the pendant and Doreen embodies her dreams.
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It is implied that Doreen is also Melchior's dream, as Masa and Mune call her their sister. Additionally, I think Melchior was the one identified with creating both the Mammon Machine and the Pendant. We might then see the Mammon as being "evil" as it would be the only one of Melchior's 3 creations to not have a "soul." It is apart from the theme of dreams.
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It is implied that Doreen is also Melchior's dream, as Masa and Mune call her their sister. Additionally, I think Melchior was the one identified with creating both the Mammon Machine and the Pendant. We might then see the Mammon as being "evil" as it would be the only one of Melchior's 3 creations to not have a "soul." It is apart from the theme of dreams.
Just because Doreen is referred to as Sister by Masa and Mune does not imply that she is also a dream of Melchior. They are probably saying it because she is another dream-being like them and therefore their sister in that sense.
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Just because Doreen is referred to as Sister by Masa and Mune does not imply that she is also a dream of Melchior. They are probably saying it because she is another dream-being like them and therefore their sister in that sense.
It does imply, but it doesn't necessitate. Does anyone know how strict Japanese is with this sort of thing? That is, would a Japanese individual use the phrase "nee-chan" in a general use, such as to imply members of a similar group (sort of like the English phrase "sorority sister") or can "nee-chan" only mean actual sister?
However, looking over the script I can't find any definite connection that Melchior alone created the pendant. The game actually says that the Gurus (plural) made it.
Here are a few seemingly relevant quotes I found through the translation page, for discussion's sake:
[NA Doreen, Enhasa]
This is the eternal kingdom of Zeal, where dreams can come true.
But at what price?
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man... or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi?
Never assume that what you see and feel is real!
I'm Doreen.
Seek the hidden path, and open the doors of knowledge, each in turn.
[RT Doreen, Enharsa]
This is the eternal Magic Kingdom Zeal. The place where all desires come true......
However, there's no telling how high the price for that will reach......
The world that you see with your eyes and the world that I see with my eyes may be completely different things.
Listening? All that exists in the universe are the destinies of lives. Don't think that only what you can see and touch are reality.
I'm Doreen. Seek the way that was shut. Get the order correct and open the door of knowledge.
***
[NA Mune, Zeal Palace]
Big sister Doreen's at Enhasa again
[NA Masa]
Yeah… That's 'cause she likes dreams.
[NA Mune]
I like the wind better! Whoosh!
[NA Masa]
I wonder how ol' man Melchior is... Humans are so odd...
[RT Leon, Zeal Palace]
Doreen nee-chan went to play in Enharsa again.
[RT Gran]
Yeah...... It's cause nee-chan likes dreams.
[RT Leon]
I like the wind better. whooshwhoooosh!
[RT Gran]
Wonder what he's doing, old man Philosopher of Life
Hasn't been around lately...... Sheesh, humans......
***
[NA Young man, Zeal Palace]
Schala’s pendant was made from the same red rock as the Mammon Machine.
When she chants, the pendant glows.
[RT Young Man]
They say Sara’s pendant was made from the same red stone as the Demonic Vessel.
I’ve heard that when Sara takes the pendant in hand and prays to the Demonic Vessel, it gives off a mysterious radiance.
***
[NA Old Man/Young Man, Zeal Palace]
That glow…?!
That’s the pendant the Gurus made for Schala!!
How did you get it?
[RT Old Man/Young Man]
Oh, that radiance…!?
That is without a doubt what the Philosophers made for Sara!!
How did you ….!?
She certainly seems more... aware in the Retranslation than the NA version. Curiously, Doreen's name doesn't seem to have been researched much yet. It is possible that there is a connection to Doreen Valiente, an early Wiccan and somewhat prolific writer of witchcraft in general (and a practicioner of magic). Or perhaps Doreen Massey, a geographer with some postmodern philosophies that don't seem too alien to Chrono Trigger Doreen's.
The name "Doreen" itself seems to mean something along the lines of "Gift" (from the Greek doron and the -een suffix). It is possible that this may actually be a play on words and that her name actually may mean "Gift of Eve" (-een being a form of evening, which can also be represented as eve). Eve being not only evening before, but also the biblical character. In genetics, "Eve" might be used to refer to a maternal ancestor and it is implied that Marle is related to the Zeal royal family (thus, Marle's pendant is the "gift" of her "maternal ancestor").
It could also be "Gift of Living One/Source of Life" as Eve itself means such in the original Hebrew (derived from Eva). As the dream species have a connection to dreamstone, and in turn the Entity, Doreen might literally be a gift from the planet.
Or it could be Gift of the Evening, as Zeal was certainly in its twilight hours.
Or Doreen might just mean jack squat
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Or Doreen might just mean jack squat
Doreen could be the name of Ted Woosely's grandma for all we know.
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Doreen could be the name of Ted Woosely's grandma for all we know.
Probably not, as the retranslation keeps Doreen, implying that her Japanese name was the same. It might be the name of Masato Kato's grandma, however
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Doreen's name in Japanese was Dream...I dunno why it doesn't show it as such in that script translation (anyone know if it's Doreen in the actual ROM retranslation? I haven't gotten that far yet *heh heh*)...
Anyways...I've NEVER bought the idea of Masa & Mune being literally Melchior's dreams. Certainly no more than Glenn is literally Cyrus's hopes & dreams...
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Well nerts. Yeah, if her Japanese name was "Dream" then the meaning would be quite straight forward. Got my info from here (http://chronofan.com/Black/Publications/Retranslation/CT%20Retranslation%20-%20Chapter%2018.htm).
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People should stop trolling. That goes to both of you Trix AND Nightmare. But yeah, everyone, stop taking yo' Chronoz so seriously. Not everything has to have a deep, grand meaning behind it.
EDIT: I just noticed this was the first time I posted in a non-General board for like...a year!
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But yeah, everyone, stop taking yo' Chronoz so seriously. Not everything has to have a deep, grand meaning behind it.
thumbs up to that.
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It's trendy to hate the Compendium for Chrono Trigger fanboys at GameFAQs.
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It's trendy to hate the Compendium for Chrono Trigger fanboys at GameFAQs.
I ain't trendy. It's the right thing to do.
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It's trendy to hate the Compendium for Chrono Trigger fanboys at GameFAQs.
I ain't trendy. It's the right thing to do.
Okay, here's the last thing I'm going to say, then I swear to God I wont troll in this topic again.
Trixter, you show up and the first thing you say in this topic is
Oh yea let's just throw out the Entity line anytime there's an inconsistency in the game. The more blunt truth about this is that there are holes in Chrono Trigger that aren't explainable.
Not a good way to make a first impression. All you ever seem to do is go; "Oh you guys are fags! Entity? You just can't fucking accept that there are plot holes or blah blah blah." If you had said something like:
Could there be any other explanation? I mean, the Entity sounds like such a far fetched idea.
If you came on a little less angry, I bet we wouldn't have had as much of a problem.
If you don't like the way we work, try to get an understanding of what we've been doing here for years before you blast us. And if that still doesn't suit you, go back to GameFAQs or wherever.
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Really now? this discussion has gone pretty far..
As much as i hate to admit it (for CT/CC are truly
great games in my eyes), there are many
issues in them that are pretty much up for debate, and i
don't think that we might get any satisfactory
answers in the near future..
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It's trendy to hate the Compendium for Chrono Trigger fanboys at GameFAQs.
I ain't trendy. It's the right thing to do.
(http://chronofan.com/Zeality/picardno.jpg)
Dear god what is wrong with you?
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Wow, what is wrong with you people? Who the hell watches Star Trek? Nerds thats who.
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Wow, what is wrong with you people? Who the hell watches Star Trek? Nerds thats who.
And I spent all that time trying to reason with you. Sigh, intelligence is wasted on the young I guess.
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I'm a nerd. I thought nerds play video games.
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Wow, what is wrong with you people? Who the hell watches Star Trek? Nerds thats who.
It has nothing to do with Star Trek. It's a popular image for facepalm. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/nikuluffy/facepalm.jpg
I'm a nerd. I thought nerds play video games.
True dat.
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It's trendy to hate the Compendium for Chrono Trigger fanboys at GameFAQs.
I ain't trendy. It's the right thing to do.
Sorry I couldn't resist :lol::
(http://lc.fdots.com/cc/lc/2c/2cd2652404c400a188c8842973d2e2c8.jpg)
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plus, it's not exactly normal to be spending your free time lurking in forums dedicated to a time travel video game series (while analyzing every little nook and cranny)...
i mean, i'm a devout member here, but there's this tiny part of me that whispers in the night: "you're a dork, you're a dork, you're a dork..." proud to be here, though!
but, c'mon...
it's even less normal to be the guy who spends his free time lurking in forums dedicated to a time travel video game series (analyzing every little nook and cranny) - and to be the guy who goes there to start shit.
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While arguing about the pendants origins warrants continuing this topic I find it hard to find a single post lately that does just that.
The way things have gone lately this thread has become nothing but a spam thread full of stupid rebuttals back and forth, name calling, and all that jazz.
I call for this topic to be locked up and forgotten, and if Trixter and the rest of you want to civilly argue the origins, and theories behind the pendant in a serious and logical manner do so in a new topic.
Man, I'm getting too old for this shit! :lol:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w153/Glennleo2/sjff_03_img1107.jpg)
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While arguing about the pendants origins warrants continuing this topic I find it hard to find a single post lately that does just that.
The way things have gone lately this thread has become nothing but a spam thread full of stupid rebuttals back and forth, name calling, and all that jazz.
I call for this topic to be locked up and forgotten, and if Trixter and the rest of you want to civilly argue the origins, and theories behind the pendant in a serious and logical manner do so in a new topic.
Man, I'm getting too old for this shit! :lol:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w153/Glennleo2/sjff_03_img1107.jpg)
Agreed.
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if Trixter and the rest of you want to civilly argue the origins, and theories behind the pendant in a serious and logical manner do so in a new topic.
You mean, like... this topic (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5156.0.html) started earlier today?
But yes, I agree. This topic should be Exterminated
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Dalek.jpg)
Hey, everyone should get to post a random image some time or another.
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Yea I know about that topic, but I already posted this before I saw that. My bad. :x
Either way this topic should be locked.
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agreed.
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I miss gray, he would have locked this by the second page.
*sigh*
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Yeah, how many mods that are actually active on the forums is the Compendium down to??
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Yeah, how many mods that are actually active on the forums is the Compendium down to??
Zeality?
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Yeah, how many mods that are actually active on the forums is the Compendium down to??
Zeality?
At any rate, Azure should be able to lock his thread. Azure, when you log back in would you please lock this; there has been a lot of flaming going on from a member who shall remain nameless. (I think at this point everyone can agree who it is...)
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Aw, my first topic to actually get decent replies, is my first topic to get spammed, flammed in, and possibly locked.
Ah well...
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Aw, my first topic to actually get decent replies, is my first topic to get spammed, flammed in, and possibly locked.
Ah well...
Aww now I feel bad. :(
Don't blame yourself though. There really isn't a whole lot you could of done to prevent it in the first place.
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Haha no worries :) Crit happens ^^
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this thread is STILL open...? holy guacamole!
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Holy fiery internet flame-wars, Batman!
We better call in for a can of patented Bat-Internet-Forum-Locking Spray.
(http://images.allmoviephoto.com/1966_Batman:_The_Movie/burt_ward_adam_west_batman_the_movie_001.jpg)
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Bah, someone else always locked this stuff, like GrayLensman. I usually don't lock topics that still have beef going within them, but perhaps this has run its course.