Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Thought on June 20, 2008, 06:25:56 pm
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To my understanding, one of the reasons for the development of the Time Bastard theory is a simple issue of the conservation of matter (it cannot be created or destroyed). However, considering Schala's situation, I have become doubtful as to if this real world law of physics actually applies to the Chronoverse. Specifically, Schala seems to be a direct violation of the conservation of matter.
Allow me to elaborate. Time Bastard states that duplicants are sent to the Darkness Beyond Time in order to preserve the conservation of matter. Of course, this is slightly misleading as the matter of that duplicant can't be sent to the DBT, only the information (which itself can't be destroyed, but it can be created). If the matter of the individual was sent, that would still violate the conservation of matter, so matter must just be rearranged according to the discarding of information.
Chrono Cross states that Schala fell through a temporal vortex thingy along with the Mammon Machine and gets merged with Lavos in the DBT.
That leaves us with a problem. Either the matter of Schala's body was sent to the DBT (thereby essentially destorying matter) or her body was left behind somehow (possibly indicating that that Schala that was sent to the DBT was herself a Time Bastard). However, when Schala sends her Daughter-Clone to the world, that would seem to be the creation of matter (and possibly indicating that there are two different living Schalas in a single dimension's timeline).
One possibly solution to this is that Schala sent Kid out of the DBT essentially at the same Time Error moment that she herself disappeared into the vortex. Matter in, matter out. However, as noted, matter can neither be created nor destroyed so Kid is not only Schala, but her body was essentially made from the matter of Schala's body (can't create or destory matter, but you can rearrange it). However, even in the DBT Time Error continues to follow and before Schala made her clone she helped Serge. This is a sequence of event which means some Time Error had to have passed. Even if only for a few seconds of Time Error, matter had been essentially destoryed.
Have I missed something? Does the DBT count as part of the system of the universe as a whole (and thus, matter in the DBT doesn't really count as being destroyed, but rather gets tallied in with everything else)?
Personally, I am inclined to say that Schala was sent to the DBT whole hog (as it were). This is because that would explain one important detail that was identified as important back in 2004 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,169.0.html) but hasn't been established in the intervening 4 years: what did Schala bring to the table that allowed Lavos and her combined to form a being capable of devouring time? The answer, then, is matter. Schala brought something that the Lavos in the DBT didn't have (a physical body). With a body, and its position outside of time, it became capable of effecting reality. I'd still maintain it sucked the energy out of time, rather than munching time like a sandwhich, but that is a different topic.
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Good observation.
And you're right. But another argument can be brought to the table.
Lavos was a LARGE amount of matter. At the same time, the Mammon Machine contained a gigantic amount of Lavos' energy. Well, the Time Devourer is glaringly smaller than Lavos. Not only that, but the Mammon Machine seemed to be almost completely drained of its energy when it sat broken behind Queen Zeal in the Black Omen. Is it not possible that these large amounts of matter and energy that were apparently just lost account for the creation of Schala's daughter-clone, and the innate abilities of the Time Devourer itself? Matter can be changed into energy, and vice-versa, so therefore I believe that a chunk of Lavos' mass must have been formed into energy, which Schala then shaped into matter (Kid) and then used the remaining energy to transport her to the correct time period. The rest of the matter and energy resulted in the creation of the Time Devourer. This then corrects the Time Error, I believe.
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Lavos was a LARGE amount of matter. At the same time, the Mammon Machine contained a gigantic amount of Lavos' energy. Well, the Time Devourer is glaringly smaller than Lavos. Not only that, but the Mammon Machine seemed to be almost completely drained of its energy when it sat broken behind Queen Zeal in the Black Omen. Is it not possible that these large amounts of matter and energy that were apparently just lost account for the creation of Schala's daughter-clone, and the innate abilities of the Time Devourer itself? Matter can be changed into energy, and vice-versa, so therefore I believe that a chunk of Lavos' mass must have been formed into energy, which Schala then shaped into matter (Kid) and then used the remaining energy to transport her to the correct time period. The rest of the matter and energy resulted in the creation of the Time Devourer. This then corrects the Time Error, I believe.
Ah, but Lavos should not have been sent to the DBT in the first place (as physical matter). Allow me to offer an example of why this is:
Sir Bob lives in 600 AD on Timeline 1. He will naturally die in 630AD. Tim the Time Traveler lives in 1000 AD but travels back to 600AD and kills Sir Bob. The Sir Bob that would have lived from 600AD to 630AD is sent to the DBT, as the entire timeline 1 in which he lived is discarded due to Tim's actions. Now, from Tim's perspective in 600AD, mere seconds after he killed Bob, in timeline 2, what happens? Does a black portal open and suck Bob's body into the DBT? Not at all, Bob's body just lies there, dead. The matter that comprised Bob's body isn't sent to the DBT, merely the information of that old timeline.
Similarly, after Lavos is defeated, it is more likely that his body just rots away (or the alien equivalent) in the real world while his future is sent to the DBT. No matter or energy is sent to the DBT, just the information. However, to be fair, the Mammon Machine may have been sent to the DBT along with Schala; that is, in a non-standard way. I suppose the question is, then, if Lavos could have just merged with the Mammon Machine to the same effect. If so, and if the Mammon Machine was sent whole-hog to the DBT, then Matter would seem to be the missing element that makes the TD the TD. If not, then Schala being in the DBT with her physical body wouldn't be the key to the TD anywho. Alas.
As for the Time Devourer being smaller than Lavos, that is in part to be expected. It is Lavos evolving into the Time Devourer; why should we expect it to retain the same appearance? Additionally, given that one would presume some energy would have to be applied to the evolution process (as change usually requires an acting force, which is essentially energy), then it might have had to "feed" of its own matter in order to evolve. Very very vaguely it might be like a bear at the start of winter and the end of it; its size changes so it can survive.
But I do think you are onto something. While I like the idea of matter being the key element that Schala brings to the table, that probably isn't it given that the Mammon Machine was there too, probably in physical form as well. Still, that further violates the conservation of mass.
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Maybe the Chronoverse uses some strange type of ethereal physics? I believe that would explain magic better in this instance. If they used a principle of ethereal physics, then maybe Lavos, the Mammon Machine, and Schala could all be changed into this theoretical ethereal substance that ends up becoming the time devourer? This ethereal physics theory would basically replace the law of the conservation of matter and energy in the DBT. Therefore, all the people sent there by time errors could perhaps shift to this ethereal form, like ghosts, and therefore they can violate the normal physical laws of our world.
This could also explain the ghosts in Chronopolis, maybe.
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That's always been my assumption: physics in our world don't apply in the Chronoverse. That explains magic, some of the time travel elements, etc. But then again, I've heard some REALLY compelling arguments in these forums (especially from great minds like Thought and BROJ).
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Dream species.
We don't know for certain their genesis, but we do know that the Masamune trio are Melchior's dreams embodied.
What about Turnip? he's the dream of the Acacia Dragoon. What's the origin of his materia?
Magic is supposed to generate things out of nothing, while Elements somehow draw it from the Earth.
The little Red Knife became the larger-mass sword Masamune.
After all that, is it really weird to have someone divide part of herself into a clone-daughter? <.<
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Dream species.
We don't know for certain their genesis, but we do know that the Masamune trio are Melchior's dreams embodied.
What about Turnip? he's the dream of the Acacia Dragoon. What's the origin of his materia?
Magic is supposed to generate things out of nothing, while Elements somehow draw it from the Earth.
The little Red Knife became the larger-mass sword Masamune.
After all that, is it really weird to have someone divide part of herself into a clone-daughter? <.<
Well that's an interesting viewpoint. But nobody, if you notice, ever really mentions the presence of Masa or Mune in their physical forms besides the party.
Turnip is easily explainable as an expermient conducted by Radius. He's a green elemental type which shows a strong connection with plants, so who's to say that he couldn't possibly create a plant demi-human thing in his garden?
So actually, I don't think the dream species thing holds much water. Personally, at least.
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One thing I find interesting is that Schala appeared as a young person as did Crono, Lucca, and Marle. The young version of the original heroes aren't the real team obviously; they're a manifestation of them somehow. I don't think it has been agreed upon for sure how they appeared. Anywho, we know that Schala was a conflicted person after she made her farewell in Chrono Trigger. Part of her wanted destruction and the other part didn't. I could so how (not in the real universe of course) Schala could have cloned herself and divided the matter (but apparently not the information) that went along with it. Schala's the older sister of Janus, which limits how old she can be. She acts like someone who's about the same age as the main characters maybe so it's reasonable to assume she's in her late teens, maybe even around 20 or so. When the game ends we see a young woman who looks to be in her late teens as well.
When we finally see her at the end of Chrono Cross she looks about half that age (at least to me). So, if she were to split herself in half (conserving the laws of matter) then evidently her age also got split in half too. There is a lot of duality in this game and at first it would make sense for her to also split her already split personality; keep the evil side with Lavos and send the good side to her new clone. Perhaps she felt that if she did that then when Lavos would be defeated that part of her would be lost, I'm not sure. Maybe she didn't have the ability to transfer part of herself to her clone, but I think it would be possible for her to do. Anywho, she doesn't, which means the cloned her wouldn't have her knowledge and all that. It makes the most sense to create a little child who can learn; a sort of blank slate if you will.
To summarize, she split herself in half, but not her knowledge/information, thus the logical thing would be for the cloned version of her to be a baby since it wouldn't have the knowledge to take care of itself/know where it came from if it were older. Thus matter is conserved. It's kind of farfetched but at the same time makes some sense.
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That's always been my assumption: physics in our world don't apply in the Chronoverse. That explains magic, some of the time travel elements, etc. But then again, I've heard some REALLY compelling arguments in these forums (especially from great minds like Thought and BROJ).
I've been away from this thread too long, sorry (the CC:DBT forum's sucked me in).
Anywho, that is really just the exact point I was getting at;
If Schala violates the Conservation of Matter, then it would seem that the Conservation of Matter wouldn't apply to Chrono Theory Discussion, which in turn means that the primary argument for Time Bastard Theory is bunk; while we might not end up with Time Doubles, we theoretically could (unless someone comes up with another theory for getting rid of them without relying on a real-world physical law that doesn't apply to the Chrono Series). Time Bastard is particularly important for resolving events after CT (such as Robo and Doan would return to a future were their happy selves are shunted to the DBT while their miserable selves still exist), so tossing that out would seem to have far reaching consequences.
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Ah, here's how you solve it, I believe:
The conservation of matter is over the summation of all dimensions.
Since Kid only exists in one dimension at a time (i.e. there is not two of Kid, per se, for different reasons than why there is not two of Serge), the matter is not lost.
However, this causes one interesting side effect:
Kid's native dimension is Home World, and it was her creation that split the dimensions.
Which is a minor contradiction with what we're told over the course of CC (namely, that Serge living/dying is what caused the split), but only insofar as we're basically being fed, once again, misinformation. Serge living or dying was a side effect of the dimensional split, specifically, "which side of it is Kid present to save him".
This also leads to the possibly disturbing implication that dimensional splits can be (or, more likely, have to be) triggered from the DBT...
Gah, can't bridge tags like I'm used to?
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Well, if dimensional physics are taken into account, could it be said that the entire CC game is a violation of the law of conservation of matter and energy? I.e. when traveling from home world to another world? On the basic dimensional level, the characters are actually being created in one dimension and being destroyed in another, yes?
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Well, if dimensional physics are taken into account, could it be said that the entire CC game is a violation of the law of conservation of matter and energy? I.e. when traveling from home world to another world? On the basic dimensional level, the characters are actually being created in one dimension and being destroyed in another, yes?
This actually isn't what the problem is (though it did make me realize where the problem lies in my idea, and so I'll fix that momentarily) - the combined matter/energy of all dimensions remains the same in this process. (As yet another side effect, changing dimensions is therefore required to be instantaneous - that is, there is no moment where you exist in neither dimension [for the purposes of this, the Temporal Vortex counts as its own dimension], and there is no moment where you exist in both.)
The problem is this:
Where did the matter/energy come from to create everyone in the new dimension produced upon a split?
As it turns out, there are three solutions:
1) The split, and thereby the creation of a new dimension (but not its contents), expends a certain amount of negative energy (i.e. the "vacuum state" of non-dimensional "spacetime" [obviously inaccurate as terminology here, but good enough for us for the time being] is technically a false vacuum, as its energy is higher than that of any "true" [that is, dimensional] spacetime).
2) Dimensions are simply "re-purposed" upon such time as they reach a "final" state (note that this may generate problems of its own, as it means that not all dimensions necessarily have the same time axis).
3) There are an infinite number of dimensions. This thereby renders the whole conservation principle moot (even with a finite amount of matter/energy per dimension!), as we can "steal" infinitesimal amounts of energy from an infinite subset of the dimensions to produce a finite amount of energy for a new dimension.
Of the three options, I think #1 seems to be the most elegant, and #2 is just about the ugliest freakin' hack of a solution there is (well, beyond "A wizard did it" :D).
#3... well, it's definitely possible (though it basically invalidates any hope that the Chrono universe has a workable form of quantum mechanics :lol: :D :lol:) but it's almost as ugly of a hack as #2 is.
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Yeah I will agree, the negative energy thing does seem like a fallback. But actually it does produce another interesting point in that this may be the way the Chronoverse actually works, thereby giving them a different, but still valid working of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is based on principle of uncertainty anyway, as Quantum implies unknown variables. This "negative energy" could be one of those variables.
Or, a wizard did it. Thereby proving that the Entity is a wizard.
But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.
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But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.
The only real issue with Option 3 is that either it requires that changes that can be noticed (given a sufficiently omniscient observer w/respect to any one universe), or that energy is not quantized (to allow for infinitesimal amounts being removed at a time).
Both of which are somewhat ugly to work with; the former would eventually make it obvious to any sufficiently advanced civilization that there are multiple dimensions (shortly before LAVOS RISES FROM THE EARTH AND EATS THEM ALL HA HA HA HA HA), while the latter makes it extremely hard to make a consistent form of quantum mechanics.
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But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.
The only real issue with Option 3 is that either it requires that changes that can be noticed (given a sufficiently omniscient observer w/respect to any one universe), or that energy is not quantized (to allow for infinitesimal amounts being removed at a time).
Both of which are somewhat ugly to work with; the former would eventually make it obvious to any sufficiently advanced civilization that there are multiple dimensions (shortly before LAVOS RISES FROM THE EARTH AND EATS THEM ALL HA HA HA HA HA), while the latter makes it extremely hard to make a consistent form of quantum mechanics.
True. This world these guys created has got to have deeper inner workings than what's been included before now. Hopefully all of us physics nerds will get enlightened by the creators one day lol.
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Ah, here's how you solve it, I believe:
The conservation of matter is over the summation of all dimensions.
Since Kid only exists in one dimension at a time (i.e. there is not two of Kid, per se, for different reasons than why there is not two of Serge), the matter is not lost.
To note, Kato has specifically stated that Kid exists in both dimensions. But alternate dimensions can't count towards the conservation of matter in the first place. Sure, there might be one Serge, and even if we assumed there was only one Kid, there are two of everyone else. Either matter is existing in two places at once (a very possible state, mind you), or the two dimensions don't count to one total.
Or, a wizard did it. Thereby proving that the Entity is a wizard.
See my avatar for further proof.
However, it is implied in the series that the dimensional split was unusual. There certainly aren't an infinite number of alternate dimensions (at least, not as presented; if the universe began with an infinite number of dimensions, then there would be an infinite number, but the implication seems to be that the universe started with a finite number, and thus the number must remain finite).
But all of that is getting away from the crux; Schala being sent to the DBT should count as matter being destroyed, unless she was a Time Bastard. Yet, if she is a Time Bastard, then Kid's existance would count as matter being created. Either way, Conservation of Matter seems to be bunk.
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Ah, here's how you solve it, I believe:
The conservation of matter is over the summation of all dimensions.
Since Kid only exists in one dimension at a time (i.e. there is not two of Kid, per se, for different reasons than why there is not two of Serge), the matter is not lost.
To note, Kato has specifically stated that Kid exists in both dimensions. But alternate dimensions can't count towards the conservation of matter in the first place. Sure, there might be one Serge, and even if we assumed there was only one Kid, there are two of everyone else. Either matter is existing in two places at once (a very possible state, mind you), or the two dimensions don't count to one total.
Or, a wizard did it. Thereby proving that the Entity is a wizard.
See my avatar for further proof.
However, it is implied in the series that the dimensional split was unusual. There certainly aren't an infinite number of alternate dimensions (at least, not as presented; if the universe began with an infinite number of dimensions, then there would be an infinite number, but the implication seems to be that the universe started with a finite number, and thus the number must remain finite).
But all of that is getting away from the crux; Schala being sent to the DBT should count as matter being destroyed, unless she was a Time Bastard. Yet, if she is a Time Bastard, then Kid's existance would count as matter being created. Either way, Conservation of Matter seems to be bunk.
Well, then.
Since we're striking Option 3 as non-viable (good idea, BTW - infinite dimensions is pretty damn ugly to work with, as it implies either an infinite amount of starting energy, or "negative" dimensions in terms of energy) and Option 2 has already been stated to be extraordinarily ugly as a solution to this, that leaves Option 1, which I'll restate here:
1) The split, and thereby the creation of a new dimension (but not its contents), expends a certain amount of negative energy (i.e. the "vacuum state" of non-dimensional "spacetime" [obviously inaccurate as terminology here, but good enough for us for the time being] is technically a false vacuum, as its energy is higher than that of any "true" [that is, dimensional] spacetime).
In other words, the DBT (possibly) and non-dimensional existence (definitely) have energy that can be extracted, with some amount of net input, to produce at least one dimensional spacetime. This net input must obviously come from somewhere (somewhen? :D :D), and thereby provides a "template" spacetime for the created spacetime(s).
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I'm not targeting you Thought, just pickin' a place to jump in.
To note, Kato has specifically stated that Kid exists in both dimensions. But alternate dimensions can't count towards the conservation of matter in the first place. Sure, there might be one Serge, and even if we assumed there was only one Kid, there are two of everyone else. Either matter is existing in two places at once (a very possible state, mind you), or the two dimensions don't count to one total.
Ah, but the composition(i.e. matter/energy) of Kid/Serge/[insert name here] exists in both dimensions; dimensions of a common origin. So no matter/energy is transferred, only information.
Or, a wizard did it. Thereby proving that the Entity is a wizard.
See my avatar for further proof.
And a red wizard, at that! :wink:
However, it is implied in the series that the dimensional split was unusual. There certainly aren't an infinite number of alternate dimensions (at least, not as presented; if the universe began with an infinite number of dimensions, then there would be an infinite number, but the implication seems to be that the universe started with a finite number, and thus the number must remain finite).
The only real unusual nature of the given dimensions is the semi-permanent connection between them.
But all of that is getting away from the crux; Schala being sent to the DBT should count as matter being destroyed, unless she was a Time Bastard. Yet, if she is a Time Bastard, then Kid's existance would count as matter being created. Either way, Conservation of Matter seems to be bunk.
Again, I reiterate: no matter/energy was destroyed, as the dimensions share a common origin(same initial density), so no violation of the Law of Conservation. This does, however, fall into the area of the information paradox(i.e. no information can be destroyed)--and that's what the Time Bastard theory is for.
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I'm not targeting you Thought, just pickin' a place to jump in.
Always glad when you do jump in.
But all of that is getting away from the crux; Schala being sent to the DBT should count as matter being destroyed, unless she was a Time Bastard. Yet, if she is a Time Bastard, then Kid's existance would count as matter being created. Either way, Conservation of Matter seems to be bunk.
Again, I reiterate: no matter/energy was destroyed, as the dimensions share a common origin(same initial density), so no violation of the Law of Conservation. This does, however, fall into the area of the information paradox(i.e. no information can be destroyed)--and that's what the Time Bastard theory is for.
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That would be true only if we count the DBT into the total. Admittedly, this might be the proper way of things, but the Time Bastard Theory specifically states that the DBT is for preserving matter/energy:
"Duplicates of entities cannot be created through time travel because this would violate the conservation of energy in the universe. If a time travel scenario would cause a duplicate entity to exist, the entity with the least seniority of time traveler immunity would be sent to the DBT." ~ Time Bastard Theory (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html#Time_Bastard)
Also in that article: "Time Bastard states that counterparts of time traveling persons or matter cannot exist past the exact time of the original article's departure."
And finally: "This ensures that a duplicate of Crono cannot exist; as a result, no matter or energy is added or subtracted from the sum of the universe."
Thus the theory makes clear that when a new timeline in created, "new" matter exists up to the point of the original timeline's matter time travel departure, at which point that matter is discarded to the DBT. Perhaps I am missing a subtly in the theory, but it seems that the Theory is concerned only with the end result "the sum of the universe." No matter or energy is added or subtracted, but plenty of matter/energy is being swapped out (which, to my understanding, would still technically violate the conversation of matter/energy).
Now I think you suggested a bit of a fix to this:
Ah, but the composition(i.e. matter/energy) of Kid/Serge/[insert name here] exists in both dimensions; dimensions of a common origin. So no matter/energy is transferred, only information.
I am not entirely sure if I am following you, but I think you are saying one of two things:
1) When the information of Serge transfers from Home to Another, that rewrites the matter that was serge's dead body in Another world into Home Serge, so no matter is created or destroyed. However, I doubt this is what you meant since that would make it impossible for Home Fargo to interact with Another Fargo.
2) When Serge transfers from Home to Another there is no creation of matter since the matter total of both dimensions are added together; not one dimension tallied apart from the other. I am fairly sure this is what you meant, but I mentioned the other just in case.
Now, #2 depends on a particular quality of matter; that it can exist in two (or more) places at once. When the dimensions split, new matter wasn't created, the old matter just had one more state to exist in (thus, information that orders that matter was created, but the same matter was used). We might compare this to a computer monitor; different images might be displayed on it depending on the information, but the creation of a new image doesn't add pixels to the minitor.
So, then, if matter can exist in two places at once provided there is information to separate the two instances, why do we need Time Bastard at all? A duplicate could easily exist in the exact same dimension and timeline provided it uses the same matter but different information; there becomes no significant distinction between someone who has a duplicate due to timeline split and someone who has a duplicate due to dimensional split, yet we know the latter case can easily exist. Yet Time Bastard exist specifically to prevent these sort of duplicates.
You suggest that TB exists for the purpose of the conservation of information. I certainly would be inclined to agree that the DBT exists for this reason, but Time Bastard? The Theory gives us a means by which excess information might be done away with, but we are then left with no reason to discard the information in the first place. Information can be created with no problem and, as we see with the dimensions, two different bits of information can happily share the same pool of matter. TB Theory is to prevent duplicates, but if it shunts matter (as opposed to information) to the DBT, then it violates conservation of matter as per the Schala Conundrum, yet if it shunts information (as opposed to matter) to the DBT, then there is no reason for that information to be shunted in the first place. Either way, using the TB Theory to take care of duplicates doesn't seem to make much sense.
Now all that looks very fine to me, but am I missing/misunderstanding something?
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Hi, just joined in this interesting discussion..
I'm just curious, the only *possible* object in the real world that could violate the conservation of matter are black holes, which we know are massive distorions in Spacetime.. Could the DBT have acted like a black hole? It not only becomes the junkyard of discarded timeline information, but also of matter as well..? Although it does not destroy the matter it sucks in, only 'stores' it away.. Or do black holes not apply in the Chronoverse? :?
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Black holes are possible violations of the conservation of matter? I never heard of that. I'll have to do some reseach before I can fully consider your suggestion.
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Black holes are possible violations of the conservation of matter? I never heard of that. I'll have to do some reseach before I can fully consider your suggestion.
They're not sure, but I believe that black holes don't destroy matter, they compress matter and energy to a singularity until it can't hold anymore, and a universe is born.
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Black holes are possible violations of the conservation of matter? I never heard of that. I'll have to do some reseach before I can fully consider your suggestion.
They're not sure, but I believe that black holes don't destroy matter, they compress matter and energy to a singularity until it can't hold anymore, and a universe is born.
I am also unsure of this.. Hawking radiation may be the answer, but in a sense, black holes make information disappear completely from the Universe, violating all sorts of rules of Quantum mechanics.. And the multiverse theories are more possible in turbulent SpaceTime, such as Black Holes, and is not outside the realm of possibility. In another light, black holes may be just portals to other universes (but a wormhole would be more appropriate). Like, cosidering the purple portal to the DBT as a Black Hole/Worm hole and the DBT itself as a totally DIFFERENT Universe of its own.. I'm not so sure about that one though, too..
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Alrighty... *pops knuckles*
Here we go!
@Thought:
I think I may have left something out due to forced brevity(i.e. RL)... Well, I think I've suggested before, in another thread, that the Time Bastard theory should be amended to be the 'Time Adoption' theory; in that, every piece of existence has a 'unique' 'tag' associated with it--that when new quanta of information come in with specific 'tags' associated with them, previous quanta holders of said 'tags' would be 'shunted' to the DBT(which in this case would be a relative illusion as no matter/energy is really shunted--an entire new dimension would be created anteroactively with the old one becoming nothing more and nothing less than a dissociation.). This is all assuming, though, that the universes in question, have the same origin. Hope this clears things up a little.
@VincentGAU8
Hawkings provided a solution to the information paradox(here (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/a-solution-to-t.html)); and there's a string theory answer here (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/fuzzball.htm).
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@VincentGAU8
Hawkings provided a solution to the information paradox(here (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/a-solution-to-t.html)); and there's a string theory answer here (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/fuzzball.htm).
Those seem to be a better alternative than having information lost totally, but these are still proposition..
Same as with these so-called "dark-energy stars" link (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925423.600-three-cosmic-enigmas-one-audacious-answer.html)
All of those look real nice, but as black holes are still, they're unproven, only theories themselves..
The Time Adoption theory seems real plausible, I hope i get this right, but what kind information bearing a 'tag' would have to arrive and replace Schala's 'tag', so that she is shunted to the DBT?
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Those seem to be a better alternative than having information lost totally, but these are still proposition..
Same as with these so-called "dark-energy stars" link (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925423.600-three-cosmic-enigmas-one-audacious-answer.html)
All of those look real nice, but as black holes are still, they're unproven, only theories themselves..
Explicitly, no they probably won't be proven for quite a while. However, they have been proven implicitly; here is a simplified digest of the proof (http://library.thinkquest.org/10148/long16.shtml).
The Time Adoption theory seems real plausible, I hope i get this right, but what kind information bearing a 'tag' would have to arrive and replace Schala's 'tag', so that she is shunted to the DBT?
A 'tag' is basically a link between an entity's quantum packet and it's composition(i.e. matter A belongs in such and such place and condition) and since the human body completely recycles ~16 years(most of the body recycling much sooner than that) it is very likely that two Fargos could coexist due to probability(of course the Entity could just 'will' it, I suppose... :P).
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Okay, hopefully they are proven true.. I too am uncomfortable with the notion of matter and information just 'disappearing' from the Universe..
So how about Schala and her 'tag'? What new quanta of information would have to come in and 'displace' her and send her to the DBT? Or do i miss the point completely?
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Okay, hopefully they are proven true.. I too am uncomfortable with the notion of matter and information just 'disappearing' from the Universe..
No information is removed... an entire new universe is created with the old one becoming, in relative effect, the DBT. Also no matter/energy is removed/added, either─it is simply repurposed with new tags(saying 'where' the matter/energy is and in 'what' state it is in.)
So how about Schala and her 'tag'? What new quanta of information would have to come in and 'displace' her and send her to the DBT? Or do i miss the point completely?
Schala is a 'composition' of existence tags; if a 'new' Schala where to come in with the exact composition of tags of Schala, the old one's matter/energy would be repurposed for the new one and an entirely new universe would be created anteroactively─while relatively 'shunting' the old Schala, when in reality nothing was 'shunted'. A new universe was rewritten from the old one.
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Okay, hopefully they are proven true.. I too am uncomfortable with the notion of matter and information just 'disappearing' from the Universe..
No information is removed... an entire new universe is created with the old one becoming, in relative effect, the DBT. Also no matter/energy is removed/added, either─it is simply repurposed with new tags(saying 'where' the matter/energy is and in 'what' state it is in.)
Multiverses in the real world still amounts to just speculation, but I do hope you are correct.. Although we cant still say with certainty that no matter is removed or added, because we cant 'see' what goes on 'inside' a black hole.. All the current propositions are made mainly with theoretical math and physics, with very little physical evidence..
So how about Schala and her 'tag'? What new quanta of information would have to come in and 'displace' her and send her to the DBT? Or do i miss the point completely?
Schala is a 'composition' of existence tags; if a 'new' Schala where to come in with the exact composition of tags of Schala, the old one's matter/energy would be repurposed for the new one and an entirely new universe would be created anteroactively─while relatively 'shunting' the old Schala, when in reality nothing was 'shunted'. A new universe was rewritten from the old one.
Ok, that's good enough for me.. Thanks.. :)
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Multiverses in the real world still amounts to just speculation, but I do hope you are correct.. Although we cant still say with certainty that no matter is removed or added, because we cant 'see' what goes on 'inside' a black hole.. All the current propositions are made mainly with theoretical math and physics, with very little physical evidence..
I am not delving into Black Hole Multiverse theory(as I am assuming a common origin; i.e. parallel universes), which says that new universes are created whenever a black hole is formed(i.e. a parent-child Multiverse), rather I am only covering probabilistic parallel universes, which, in relation to the Chronoverse, do exist.
Side Note: Found an article that some may find interesting to read; it involves multiple universes and time travel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/09/21/sciuni121.xml
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Thanks to every one of you, I think my brain is broken.
Seeing as how nobody's even thought of this yet, but maybe this was developer oversight and Schala actually IS a violation of the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?
So there's like two possible theories on that side.
1. Developer oversight
2. Different quantum mechanics and physics construct in the Chronoverse.
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The current theory of how Lavos and Schala merged is flawed, because the Pocket Dimension theory is essentially dead in the water. All of the literature needs to be revised in the next analysis review. The mystery of how on earth this happened after Lavos was defeated, and why the Time Devourer has a Lavos shell even after Lavos cast off the shell to adopt his evolved form is totally open for discussion. Being totally unexplained, my idea is that Schala was physically sent there. Since Serge and the others can go there physically to battle, I believe it "counts." Lavos, then, survived in some form unknown to the player, perhaps using his Time Warp powers demonstrated in the final battle.
As for creating matter, the Time Devourer has a bunch of nasty Lavos body lying around, and also devoured the Dragon God (how, we don't know, but since it returns to the DBT it may be implied to be physical devouring or absorption. The "lost plotline" about Serge merging with the Time Devourer, on top of what he did to Schala, suggests that it acquires power this way.) Now, the Dragon God took some kind of avatar to appear in the real world; it may have been some kind of concentration of elemental power. For Kid and Harle, one can posit that they were created using leftover Lavos / Dragon God material. Or...no, perhaps we shouldn't invoke Belthasar here. Anyway, given that Lavos basically manipulated DNA for 65 million years and is bred to do so, it's not totally unbelievable that Schala, using those faculties, could produce a basic embryo or something. Harle is another mystery, since we don't know if she arrived as a baby.
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Multiverses in the real world still amounts to just speculation, but I do hope you are correct.. Although we cant still say with certainty that no matter is removed or added, because we cant 'see' what goes on 'inside' a black hole.. All the current propositions are made mainly with theoretical math and physics, with very little physical evidence..
I am not delving into Black Hole Multiverse theory(as I am assuming a common origin; i.e. parallel universes), which says that new universes are created whenever a black hole is formed(i.e. a parent-child Multiverse), rather I am only covering probabilistic parallel universes, which, in relation to the Chronoverse, do exist.
Side Note: Found an article that some may find interesting to read; it involves multiple universes and time travel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/09/21/sciuni121.xml
I am Jet Li... And I am "The One"... hehe :)
I was reading on the Black Hole Multiverse Theory, with relation to cosmology, so it appears were at different pages of the multiverse book... As for me, even though there is nothing to *definitely* prove the probability multiverse theory, nothing has yet to disprove it either, so its quite possible.. although now, i hope its not true, at least, not in reality.. I would like a single me in all known cosmos!! :D...
Although, if the probabilistic multiverse theory holds true to the Chronoverse, why could we only 'see' two multiverses (Home and Another)?? If we could access one Multiverse pair (Home to Another), why not others, with respect to the different simultaneous events that occured in each of those other multiverses?? And how could have FATE managed to manipulate those two multiverses??
Thanks to every one of you, I think my brain is broken.
Seeing as how nobody's even thought of this yet, but maybe this was developer oversight and Schala actually IS a violation of the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?
So there's like two possible theories on that side.
1. Developer oversight
2. Different quantum mechanics and physics construct in the Chronoverse.
The second one's most likely... I mean, there is no such thing as a DBT in real physics you know..
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The current theory of how Lavos and Schala merged is flawed, because the Pocket Dimension theory is essentially dead in the water. All of the literature needs to be revised in the next analysis review. The mystery of how on earth this happened after Lavos was defeated, and why the Time Devourer has a Lavos shell even after Lavos cast off the shell to adopt his evolved form is totally open for discussion. Being totally unexplained, my idea is that Schala was physically sent there. Since Serge and the others can go there physically to battle, I believe it "counts." Lavos, then, survived in some form unknown to the player, perhaps using his Time Warp powers demonstrated in the final battle.
As for creating matter, the Time Devourer has a bunch of nasty Lavos body lying around, and also devoured the Dragon God (how, we don't know, but since it returns to the DBT it may be implied to be physical devouring or absorption. The "lost plotline" about Serge merging with the Time Devourer, on top of what he did to Schala, suggests that it acquires power this way.) Now, the Dragon God took some kind of avatar to appear in the real world; it may have been some kind of concentration of elemental power. For Kid and Harle, one can posit that they were created using leftover Lavos / Dragon God material. Or...no, perhaps we shouldn't invoke Belthasar here. Anyway, given that Lavos basically manipulated DNA for 65 million years and is bred to do so, it's not totally unbelievable that Schala, using those faculties, could produce a basic embryo or something. Harle is another mystery, since we don't know if she arrived as a baby.
Perhaps it is possible to 'pull' information from one universe to another... In other words, I'm speculating that when Schala was 'pulled' to the DBT, only her information was taken from one universe to another(the DBT in question, obviously being some matter/energy-friendly, discontiguous 4-D spacetime), leaving her matter/energy behind(which in a chaotic state would pop out of existence temporarily and pop back in somewhere else). Likewise if that is possible, the inverse should be true as well─it would be possible to introduce information into another universe with the intention of repurposing matter/energy for a new Kid or Harle.
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A kind of ridiculous idea entered my mind:
I think we indeed ought to consider the DBT as a Universe in itself, with its own special spacetime arrangement..
If the Multiverse concept applies to the Chronoverse, then i think it would render the DBT useless. This is because no information/matter would be sent there, and no discarded timelines. The information lost in one Universe would be preserved by the 'creation' of a new one. But why can we see discarded timelines in the DBT? This is probably because that there are only two Universes that were created (Home and Another) while the DBT exists as a Universe created not according to the probabilistic multiverse theory. Other timeline changes failed to result in a Universal/'dimensional' split, and were instead thrown to the DBT (or maybe home and another were not sent there mainly because of Schala's intervention? :?)..
Or, yet again, am i missing something? :?
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But if only Schala's information was pulled into the DBT, how could her body be there, as well (unless Lavos/TD created another body?)
Is her body still in 12000 BC? Is she at the bottom of the sea? Somewhere on the Black Omen?
Basically, if Schala's matter was NOT transferred to the DBT, then where is it?
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But if only Schala's information was pulled into the DBT, how could her body be there, as well (unless Lavos/TD created another body?)
The act of 'pulling' foreign information would cause a new dimension to be created, where Scala doesn't exist, but her matter energy does. The dissociated dimension would be pulled, with Scala, to the DBT(composing of every 'replaced' parallel dimension), which, in itself, is nothing more than an archive, at any rate; so whether matter/energy is ethereal or corporeal in Lavos' dimension(DBT) is a moot point─there is obviously existence that can be observed and changed.
Is her body still in 12000 BC? Is she at the bottom of the sea? Somewhere on the Black Omen?
Naturally her matter/energy is still in 12000BC, but the information is gone, thus, Schala's body(structure; i.e. information) is no longer present in the given dimension.
Basically, if Schala's matter was NOT transferred to the DBT, then where is it?
Somewhere else in the given dimension; given the circumstances(i.e. Quantum Mechanics), one could not tell.
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Or, yet again, am i missing something? :?
Yes, but it might just be a very minor consideration: Dragonopolis. It was pulled from neither Home World nor Another World (as indeed that distinction didn't exist at the "time" that the city was pulled into the Keystone Dimension). However, it might be that Dragonopolis was not so much pulled from an alternate dimension but rather a discarded timeline. Unfortunately, much work needs to be done on the distinctions between timelines and dimensions.
I just spent the last week pondering that very issue and the best I came up with was a question, really: Is time elastic or brittle?
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Or, yet again, am i missing something? :?
Yes, but it might just be a very minor consideration: Dragonopolis. It was pulled from neither Home World nor Another World (as indeed that distinction didn't exist at the "time" that the city was pulled into the Keystone Dimension). However, it might be that Dragonopolis was not so much pulled from an alternate dimension but rather a discarded timeline. Unfortunately, much work needs to be done on the distinctions between timelines and dimensions.
I just spent the last week pondering that very issue and the best I came up with was a question, really: Is time elastic or brittle?
Terra Tower came not from another universe/alternate reality, but rather a discarded timeline?
I somehow can't grasp that.. Would you mind to elaborate?
And we really need to distinguish timelines/universes/alternate realities (Home world/Another world/ Dragonians)
from dimensions according to definition (3D/4D/5D and such)...
Is time elastic or brittle? Probably elastic, but can be torn apart by powerful forces (consider the black hole again).. I'm unsure of this though.. :?
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Well it was said that Dragonopolis was pulled from an alternate dimension, yet it also seems that Another World should, by all rights, be itself a discarded timeline. Another world is the timeline that existed before Kid traveled back in time to save Serge. When she did so, Home World should have become the primary timeline and Another World should have been discarded (curiously, where Crono traveled time to save the future, Kid's travels doomed that future). Instead, Another World became a dimension. Thus, Dragonopolis might likewise be seen as both an alternate dimension (like Another World) and a timeline that should be discarded (also like Another World). Or, I suppose, Dragonopolis might have actually been pulled from the DBT itself (if so, that might help to explain why the Time Devourer had access to the Dragon God to absorb in the first place; it was already there, but then it was pulled back out of the DBT, much in the same way as the dead sea).
There is no evidence, mind you, that the Dragonian Dimension has any relationship to a discarded timeline, but we also don't really know the distinction between dimensions and timelines either.
As for time, allow me to elaborate my question a little more.
If time is elastic, then when a force is applied it should return to its original shape. Or in other words, if time is elastic, then anytime a time traveler makes a change to history, time would behave in a manner as to return to its original shape. If time is elastic, then generally time would not be discarded when a change was made (at best we might say a small section of it was altered or discarded, but the whole remains intact).
If time is brittle, however, then when a force is applied to it, time shatters and is entirely discarded, being replaced by a new timeline.
To note, Time Bastard Theory (and to a lesser extent, Time Traveler Immunity) assume that time is brittle, not elastic. Unfortunately, this is the realm of pure theory; nothing in the games give us a good idea of what time itself is like or how it, as a 4 dimensional object, responds to external forces. It is like we are A. Square, from Flatland, trying to comprehend Spaceland.
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect... but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly.... timey-wimey.... stuff.
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Oops, sorry.. was thinking about time in a physical/cosmological sense, i.e. Space and Time distorted by
massive objects, like a black hole, not in from a Time Traveler's perspective. But yeah, there ain't much evidence in game to infer anything definitive...
Instead, Another World became a dimension.
Do you mean new dimension of an already previously existent Universe? A new Universe/alternate reality would be, i think more appropriate..
Although, i do get your point on the Dragonian Dimension/Timeline...
It would seem that TD had easy access to something that he was supposed to destroy in another timeline.. But if that timleline (Dragonian) was from the DBT, then what happened in the Time Crash? Did Lavos/TD deliberately choose that city to counter-act Chronopolis? Why not other objects from other discarded timelines in the DBT? What would be his motive for doing so?
But then again, there isn't much evidence to answer such questions...
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Instead, Another World became a dimension.
Do you mean new dimension of an already previously existent Universe? A new Universe/alternate reality would be, i think more appropriate..
... yes?
Are you talking dimension as it is used in popular culture (such as "The being from Dimension X!") or are you talking dimension as in physics?
I'd generally say that it is the same universe, different reality. To illustrate what I mean: if we move a point along a 1 dimensional axis, we have a line. If we move a line along a 2 dimensional access, we have a square. If we move a square along a 3 dimensional axis, we have a cube. I would propose that if we move a cube along a 4 dimensional axis, we have "time." That is, from our perspective, time is the result of our movement through the 4th dimension but in which we can only see three dimensions. Essentially, time is like a movie (static images that get flipped rapidly, which creates the illussion of movement). So, then, we might call Home World a single 4 dimensional object, but just as two cubes might exist, two 4 dimensional objects might exist. They are still in the same universe (just as two cubes would be in the same universe), but if they don't intersect on a 3rd dimensional level, we'd never be aware of it. Mind you, the above is just a proposal, not actual science.
Although, i do get your point on the Dragonian Dimension/Timeline...
It would seem that TD had easy access to something that he was supposed to destroy in another timeline.. But if that timleline (Dragonian) was from the DBT, then what happened in the Time Crash? Did Lavos/TD deliberately choose that city to counter-act Chronopolis? Why not other objects from other discarded timelines in the DBT? What would be his motive for doing so?
But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"
Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).
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Ok, i was thinking of dimensions in physics... And i now understand your proposition on Home and Another being
different dimensions in a similar Universe (i read your posts on the "Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?" thread)..
If I were to follow that, then the DBT is not a tesseract, Home and Another would already be one, wouldn't it?? :?
(But if they were similar dimensions in a single Universe, then doesn't it run counter 'Broj's probabilistic multiverse applies to Chronoverse propositions'??)
But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"
Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).
Hehe.. At least the Entity had a pretty good sense of humor..
Although, if the Dragonian dimension came from the DBT, then did the Entity have knowledge of the DBT?
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(But if they were similar dimensions in a single Universe, then doesn't it run counter 'Broj's probabilistic multiverse applies to Chronoverse propositions'??)
Sort of. BROJ would need to weigh in for us to know for sure (I am not sure I understand what I mean half the time, let alone that I understand what he means), but I think it largely depends on how we are defining "universe." If we define it as the totality of all know or supposed existance (a fairly common definition), then the multiverse would actually be part of the universe (which is strange because then it would go universe<multiverse<universe, but as far as I can tell, that would still be accurate). Or we could define a universe as only what is knowable in this instance of it. That is, only the conglomoration of space and matter that resulted from the Big Bang as we understand it.
But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"
Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).
Hehe.. At least the Entity had a pretty good sense of humor..
Although, if the Dragonian dimension came from the DBT, then did the Entity have knowledge of the DBT?
I'd say the entity has some knowledge of it, though to what extent I can't say. I am fairly sure it knows that the post CT timeline was different than the pre CT timeline, so it knows that the old timeline is no longer around, but if its knowledge goes beyond that I couldn't guess.
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Now I have a question.. What would have applied to the Chronoverse?
Broj's probabilistic multiverse (Everett's many-worlds hypothesis), that would have meant that there are more than two alternate realities in the Chronoverse other than home and another, or thought's single universe (spacetime created by the big bang) although with a different dimensional arrangement..?? :?
(Sorry to pit you two against each other again)
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Hey now, that ain't mine, that is just the only universe we absolutely know exists.
At the very least, I'd argue that the multiverse veiw is probably true, for the chronoverse, but on a limited scale. That is, it is unusual for dimensions to split (and indeed, they might not ever normally split after the creation of the universe), but that there is more than one dimension (or in other words, "more than one universe").
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Alright then.. Occam's razor must have applied in the Chronoverse, slashing off other possible altenate realities and leaving behind only home and another...
(or probably the multiverse does not really apply? Could have the "dimensional" split been the result of highly unusual and specialized circumstances, not by probabilistic propositions?? :?)
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from what i'm aware it is that matter, or energy cannot be broken down, there is only a fixed amount of energy in the universe not because there has to be. From what I know energy being lost from this universe would not break the laws providing that that energy is its entirety is accounted for elsewhere
Quote from a friend of mine who is majoring in Physics. This is his two cents. He doesn't think it would break any rules, apparently.
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Well it was said that Dragonopolis was pulled from an alternate dimension, yet it also seems that Another World should, by all rights, be itself a discarded timeline. Another world is the timeline that existed before Kid traveled back in time to save Serge. When she did so, Home World should have become the primary timeline and Another World should have been discarded (curiously, where Crono traveled time to save the future, Kid's travels doomed that future). Instead, Another World became a dimension. Thus, Dragonopolis might likewise be seen as both an alternate dimension (like Another World) and a timeline that should be discarded (also like Another World). Or, I suppose, Dragonopolis might have actually been pulled from the DBT itself (if so, that might help to explain why the Time Devourer had access to the Dragon God to absorb in the first place; it was already there, but then it was pulled back out of the DBT, much in the same way as the dead sea).
This (the bolded part especially) does seem like a paradox. Using the same time travel rules as Chrono Trigger, and assuming time is brittle (not elastic as you explain, like in Harry Potter or the movie Kate and Leopold, for example), Another World should've been in the DBT, and Home World should've taken over starting at the point of Kid's arrival to save Serge. However, something existed at Kid's arrival point (on the Time Error axis) that didn't exist when Crono was jumping around time - Lavos/the TD in the DBT. With the Time Devourer in the DBT, perhaps it is impossible for ruined timelines to be sent there. Maybe the very presence of the TD prohibits entrance into the DBT, unless you have a Time Egg? It is known that, once the TD is destroyed, the timelines are unified - therefore "alternate dimensions" no longer exist, because the DBT is back to being what it's supposed to be.
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Well...Maybe Lavos could consume space-time since the beginning. As a living being with dreams of procreation, it didn't really want to do that. Once the Mammon Machine/Lavos and Schala merged, she tainted it with her negative emotions (Something Lavos might not have, as a super-efficient being). With these dark, emotions, Lavos was struck with the Thanatos Instinct, and no longer cared for itself, or its offspring (Similar to how Schala no longer cared for Janus and everyone else).
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Well, I'm not comfortable on throwing out conversation of time / energy / matter, so can we just call this a plot hole?
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Okay, how about this:
Each dimension has its own Darkness Beyond Time, which does exist as a physical place in some finite quantity of space, almost like an "underworld" of the timeline. The DBT is naturally a closed system, as is the normal timeline.
When a timeline is erased, it is subsumed to the Darkness Beyond Time, then immediately starts being "dissolved" and recombined to compose the new timeline according to the actions of the time traveler. Fan creators can even write the existence of a temporal backlog; like the tenth oldest timeline is the one subsumed to create the newest, meaning one can access and study the last nine discarded timelines in the Darkness Beyond Time at any one time. In fact, we need a backlog of at least some quantity for those visions of past timelines in the Darkness Beyond Time to exist.
And as for the issue of Schala... When she fell into the DBT, can we say that an equal mass of air, potential energy, etc. rushed out, preserving the balance of each in both the DBT system and the universe system? Sort of like displacing water, which rushes into the system from which the displacing object came from.