Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: maggiekarp on October 19, 2007, 05:52:24 pm
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I know that in CC, the Einlanzer was made by Dragonians, but it's still referred to as the Masamune's "brother" and in RD, it was most likely made by the Gurus. I'm wondering, did the Einlanzer have sentience like the other objects Melchior made?
Another thing bothering me, but I dunno if it should go in here or the Character discussion... In CT, wasn't Doreen the spirit of Schala's pendant? Here's a quote from the Retranslation...
Gran: The red stone handed down from long ago......
From that stone, a pendant and the Demonic
Vessel were made......
And a knife was made.
We are Bosch's hopes, imbued into the
knife......
Although this makes it seem like Doreen is with the Mammon Machine, as well...
I also need a memory refresher, where did Doreen come from when you get the Mastermune in CC? The game scripts just make it look like she was hanging around, and it's been a while since I played the game...
tl;dr:
1) Is the Einlanzer sentient?
2) Is Doreen the spirit of Schala's pendant?
3) Was Doreen in Serge's pocket the whole time in CC, or did I miss something?
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Not that we know of. I'm not sure if it's referred to as 'brother' in Cross, since I know that it definitively is named such in RD.
As for Doreen...no idea there, either. She seemed to just be hanging around or something. Still, that she's in the pendant is an attractive idea; that explains why she was there (specifically, around Kid's neck...or actually, in her pocket, yeah, since the incomplete Time Egg is around her neck).
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I've always said that Doreen is the spirit of the Pendant, so kudos, maggiekarp. I mean, in the original, I think it's worth noting that her name is Dream. The Entity's dream pretty much starts with Marle getting sucked into that first gate and the Pendant (for whatever reason) falling and allowing Crono to follow, yeah?
Though I think that the three of them, or at least the potential for them, were always there within the rock. Thus making them kind of like...not "soldiers"...but some kind of representative for the Entity/planet.
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Are you guys sure there was only one piece of that Dreamstone? Cause I think I heard they used it as a currency in the prehistoric ages.
Also I don't think Doreen is in the Pendant. How could she be in the Masamune if she was?
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Uh, she wasn't in the Masamune, dude...She later joins up w/Masa&Mune to form the Mastermune...but when does she show up? And doesn't she seem surprised by what Masa&Mune have done?
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Okay, maybe she joined only from that point. But how could she leave the pendant and enter the Masamune?
Also, Masa and Mune had no idea what they'd done themselves. So it's no wonder she was surprised.
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What do you mean how? I don't think that they are confined to the objects, which is clear from our experiences in Zeal where we see Masa, Mune and Doreen just hanging out and later on Denadoro Mt. where Masa&Mune guard their half of the broken Masamune...oddly enough, the hilt end...
It seems like Masa&Mune are more than aware of what they'd done...but I suppose it's all implication/supposition...
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Given that the dream species seemingly can teleport from the capital of Zeal to the Ocean Palace and then directly into the Red Knife (unless Masa and Mune can exist both in the knife and in corporeal bodies at once), there doesn't seem to be any reason not to assume that Doreen could have just teleported near Serge when needed. It is a little Deus Ex Machina, but the ability is established.
On the other hand, after the Ocean Palace incident the pendant is described as almost protecting the team, which does indicate that it has at least a little power of sentience (hence, Doreen).
But I doubt Doreen is also part of the Mammon Machine for the simple reason that she is Melchior's dream. Masa & Mune were imbued in the knife seemingly with the intent of stopping the machine; it is a good deal closer to this intent to suppose that Doreen was imbued in the pendant in order to control the machine, rather than to suppose that she was used in the machine with the intent of exploiting Lavos (of course, the machine might have been created before Melchior was leery of Lavos' power).
As for if the Einlanzer is sentient, I would like to say "yes" for symmetry purposes, but I don't recall a single indication that it thought for itself. As Masa and Mune were created as a result of Lavos' power, and Lavos was absent in the Dragonian world, probably there is no comparitive entities there to have been imbued.
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But since the Einlanzer is it's opposite, wouldn't it fit that it DOESN'T have sentience of any kind? Maybe it was made to capture the essence of the Masamune (Masa&Mune)...but that's complete conjecture...*shrugs*
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Are you guys sure there was only one piece of that Dreamstone? Cause I think I heard they used it as a currency in the prehistoric ages.
Nope, that was a mistranslation, if I remember correctly.
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Right, I think it was supposed to just say that dreamstone was more precious than gold.
Though, that isn't t say that there was only one hunk of dreamstone.
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All the game states that Dreamstone is a material. It's not unique.
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I'm going to agree with Pyt that it was probably a mistranslation. I do remember them saying something about it being a trade thing....but you only see it once in the whole game, giving the idea it is rare. Yay mistranslations?
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You only see one chunk of raw Dreamstone. But the Ruby Knife and Schala's Pendant are also made out of Dreamstone, so there's obviously enough of the stuff to make things out of. I seem to remember that the Mammon Machine was made of Dreamstone as well, and that thing's pretty big.
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The entire game speaks about Dreamstone as a material, there's nothing at all that suggests that it's a unique item. Besides, Ayla gives you a chunk in prehistory; if it were the only chunk in existence, this gift would have severely disrupted history (Zeal wouldn't even exist).
This being said, the kingdom of Zeal indeed had only one chunk according to the NPCs (they speak about the "family's red rock"); the material apparently became rarer and rarer as time passed.
I think there was a theory on the forum that says that Dreamstones are produced by the planet in volcanoes and that it stopped producing them after Lavos' arrival.
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Well, Dreamstone could also just be a radioactive element (Dreamstonium? Chrononium? Plotdevicium?) with a somewhat short half-life. In Ayla's time period, it might have been rare but common enough that it wouldn't alter the timeline dramatically if it was taken. In Zeal there was some left (mind, it is never stated that the Mammon Machine, the Pendant, and the Red Knife were made entirely out of 100% pure Dreamstone), but by the modern era it had all reverted to inert matter (like lead). This would fit in with the concept of the element being a sort of energy source.
Of course, it could be that there really was only one or two hunks of dreamstone; Chrono and the others took the original supply, so the timeline in which the Mammon Machine was made out of Dreamstone ceased to exist and instead there was a new timeline in which it contained the Frozen Flame. I think a detailed theory along these lines was posted on the forums at one point.
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There was no unique chunk, Dreamstone is an ore, not a unique item. You can even trade petals and stuff for Dreamstone weapon and armor in prehistory (though they're shortened to Dream _ or Ruby _ in the English version), so clearly there was more thank one chunk. Besides, something that is unique isn't "rare".
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Yeah, but there is a problem with making arguments from items that you buy/trade. Gold armor is better than iron, despite the fact that gold is a horrible protective metal (and really should make lightning attacks deal more damage, as it is a wonderful conductor). Chrono and Co can buy "Lode" items (swords, armor, etc). Lode is an odd translation for Platinum. They are using gold to buy platinum... that just doesn't make sense. Heck, platinum is too valuable to waste on making a sword or suit of armor out of! There are items that can bring people back to life, and these items seem to have an unlimited supply in 600 AD, but the Guardia army was still hard pressed by Magus' troops due to injury and death.
The Dreamstone weapons and such unfortunately don't definitively indicate that there was more than a few chunks of the mineral, as items are just untrustworthy unless specifically incorporated into the plot. This isn't to say Dreamstone was in fact rare/unique, just that the dreamstone weapons aren't a valid point.
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Maybe it's not pure gold armor but just iron armor with gold plating or something...?
Gold Helm
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/b/b9/Gold_Helm.png)
Gold Suit
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/4f/Gold_Suit.png)
It doesn't look completely gold, eh?
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I wasn't discussing the fact that Dreamstone is rare (it is rare), I was saying that Ayla's chunk was not the only one in existence.
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I wasn't discussing the fact that Dreamstone is rare (it is rare), I was saying that Ayla's chunk was not the only one in existence.
And I was just pointing out that the evidence you used to state that it isn't unique, even though this evidence is from the game, isn't very reliable. While I think it is more likely that it is just a rare, but not unique, mineral, there just doesn't seem to be definitive evidence one way or the other.
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The Einlanzer could be imbued with some of the Dragon God's spirit or something along those lines (Nature, Earth etc). Not that there was any indication of that, other than it was the only thing that could handle the evil Masamune
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ayla said that dreamstone was a sign of strength, and since she was the strongest in ioka (and thus their leader), she was the only one who could give dreamstone away - to crono.
ayla also said that the stone is a common stone.
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Plenty of stone! Come! Drink! Dance! Eat!
Anyway, if I'm not wrong, CC stated somewhere that the Einlanzer was forged by Dragonians, while in RD it seemed to be forged by the Gurus.
It makes sense, if the humans are corrupt, if they are Lavos children of some sorts, their sword is the Masamune, evil one (of course, there are "champions" who the Planet trusts on and the Masamune is good then); while if the Dragonians are the ones in harmony with the Planet, it's no wonder why the Einlanzer beats the crap out of the evil Masamune.
Now, Einlanzer VS the good Masamune, that'd be a good duel!