Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion => Topic started by: alfadorredux on June 08, 2009, 12:59:30 pm
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So a top Squeenix exec has come right out and said that there will be no further Chrono games in the foreseeable future because sales of the DS version of CT haven't been (in their opinion) high enough. They're effectively saying that the IP associated with the Chrono series is of no value to them.
They don't want it.
We do.
So why not offer to buy it from them?
Yes, I'm serious, I'm not a crazed student with no notion of how things work in the real world, and I've thought this through, or tried to. I know I am not talking about something small, easy, or cheap. There are a whole bunch of obvious catches, but also a whole bunch of obvious benefits.
CON: -This can't be done through Square Enix USA--it would have to be taken to Square Enix Japan, with everything that implies...but at least we've got the name of a person that it would be appropriate to contact (if Hashimoto-san dislikes the Chrono series that much, he ought to embrace the idea of selling it off, ne?). Still, everything is going to have to be done through a translator. Making contact is the vital first step. If we don't do that, nothing else matters.
-Once they find out that someone wants these rights, Squeenix is not going to let them go cheaply, and they are likely to start with an asking price that no amount of fundraising could produce. They will have to be bargained down.
-If we can get them down to a reasonable price, we then have to begin the fundraising effort to end all fundraising efforts, and it can't be done here at the Compendium under its present set of rules. We'd need a website, major publicity work, and an honest person (or, ideally, several honest people) to hold the funds. It might take years--that's what happened when the Open Source community decided to buy out Blender's original rights-holders. That example, however, while it's in an unrelated field, is part of the reason why I don't think this is impossible.
PRO: -This isn't like dealing with a single-creator universe, where the creator has an emotional investment in his work. IP really is just property to these people, and they will let it go if we make it worth their while.
-If we can buy out the IP rights, there will be no more C&D letters. We can fling the entire Chronoverse open to fanworks of all types, without any risk to anyone.
-Crimson Echoes. No, I'm serious about that, too. Even if all beta testers have destroyed their copies, if the impediment of the C&D were removed, I'm sure the original team could reconstruct it from available assets in no more than a few months.
-If we get lucky, Squeenix might even throw in development docs/source code/other previously unavailable information.
-It sets a bloody big and very likely important precendent regarding companies who are holding IP rights they have no further use for. This is the real reason why it's worth doing.
-Perhaps most important, it would give this community something positive to do and bring it out of mourning.
I can't make a serious run at this alone. If this project is ever to get off the ground, it's going to need many people, all working together. But perhaps, if a lot of us pitch in, we can make Squeenix at least sit up and take a second look at what it's doing.
WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK WE ARE, ANYWAY?!
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Nice proposal, alfadorredux. Actually, it's damn decent. My only problem with the whole thing is that they'll ask quite a bit of money for the rights and, well, we'd have been better off getting that $150,000 dollar fine.
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Square Enix certainly wouldn't sell the property to fans, or even to a startup like Studio Archcraft. Sega, Monolithsoft, or Mistwalker, maybe. I wouldn't mind seeing the property go to either of those three, so long as Kato and Mitsuda were brought on board.
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Great idea, but the execution is damn near impossible...It would set a hell of a precedent though...fans buying an IP--that's dedication. If we could make this a little more feasible (in all ways), then it'd be so much more possible, but right now there are just too many hurdles to jump.
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@Belaith: I did say I knew it wouldn't be cheap. I know we're talking at least seven figures and quite likely more...but because of the precedent thing I mentioned, we may be able to get more people outside the immediate community behind this than would be interested in paying ZeaLitY et al.'s court bills.
@FaustWolf: Respectfully, I disagree. It's true that they may not want to sell at all (and there's no way in hell that they'd give it away), but I don't think they'd refuse to sell just on the basis of who the potential customer is--that isn't good business. Yes, they could easily set a price too high for us to have a chance, but we don't know that. It depends in large part on whether or not Hashimoto's words reflect the opinion of the company's executives as a whole (or they were just a poorly-worded ad for CTDS) and what they honestly think the property is worth.
It's potentially a good publicity stunt for them ("See? We are a pro-fan company!"), and the economy of one of their major foreign markets is down the tubes. If they really don't intend to ever make another Chrono game, they may think that making a quick (if small, by their standards) buck is worth more to them than hanging on to the rights. It's possible that it might be best to wait until CTDS is off the store shelves, I admit, but our momentum is probably greater now.
If we send them a snail-mail letter (email is worthless when discussing business proposals with large corps), I see several possible outcomes:
-They ignore us, or refuse to set a price. In which case, we're out a few hours of some people's time and the cost of postage to Japan (and if I can find a couple of people to help with the letter, I'll gladly toss that much money at this myself right now)...and maybe someone over there will sit up, take notice, and decide that there might be a profit to be made from this "Chrono" thing after all. Or not, but it can't make things worse.
-They set a price that's out of our league. At this point, we either try to bargain, or go see if we can stir up some interest in a company that can afford it.
-They set a reasonable price because they want to get the damned thing off their hands and have fans stop pestering them about it, and fandom goes into fundraising mode.
Do I know that it can be done? No, but I don't know that it can't be, either.
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-They ignore us, or refuse to set a price. In which case, we're out a few hours of some people's time and the cost of postage to Japan (and if I can find a couple of people to help with the letter, I'll gladly toss that much money at this myself right now)...and maybe someone over there will sit up, take notice, and decide that there might be a profit to be made from this "Chrono" thing after all. Or not, but it can't make things worse.
You know what, there really is no harm in at least trying this much. Whoever is ready to take the helms should do it. Like you said, if we get turned down here, all we'll have lost is time and a wee bit of money.
Draft up a proposal, good friend.
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Was Double Helix a startup, or has it been around awhile? That's the company Square Enix sold off/farmed out Front Mission to. If Double Helix is pretty fresh, maybe Square Enix really is willing to sell to anyone with the money.
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Double Helix Games was formed in 2007 via a merger between two Foundation 9 studios, The Collective and Shiny Entertainment. Double Helix Games cites on their website that the combined development experience totals 20+ years and that it is one of the largest and most experienced game developers in the world. Double Helix Games also states on their website that they are a developer for all the major home consoles and that they have worked on numerous notable IPs such as Star Wars, The Matrix, Indiana Jones and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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This thread is just people Dreaming Loudly. Buying an IP hellishly expensive even compared to the CnD fine, Were looking at several Million dollers. This isn't something to be done by the end of the month, this is at least a 18 month plan.
An IP has no standard market, the price is fully up to SE but it isn't working for them. To buy it our price must first cover all of there profit margins Which should be around $32 mil. scary number isn't it? It is an unheard of amount for video game fans to raise. But not unheard in general, It would require ZeaLitY and Agent12 to abandon there live for a game and which they said they won't do (with good reason too). Then they must take on a HUGE! tour around raising money.
A simple donate button won't cut it, you need all of the fans of world to know and to feel compelled to donate. But even then you should (theoretically) only be hitting the same profit line as Square did. So to make it truly work you either need to get the attention of big name donations or compel people who have never heard of it to help.
Chance of success? Nil to none. It like Gandhi paradox, no matter how hard someone tries a change wont happen. Yet the change will only happen if everyone tries.
Now if ZeaLitY and Agent12 happen to both be in a drunken stupor at agree that this could be done I will support them entirely. I love my Chrono but I won't be doing it for the series, this would be a historic event. Not like internet famous, not know only among the Rom Hackers, a group of fans makeing a Hack getting CnD then buying the IP. Damn that is a story that won't ever die, it would be a staple for the SPRINGTIME OF YOUTH!!! This would mean that Prophets Guile, Crimson Echoes, could be released but not as Rom patches but as actual games! Future games could be made! Kajar Labs, as a real studio!
On a side not this would go completely against the compendium charter, but we are already in conflicted with it. So a redraft maybe good regardless.
Square Enix certainly wouldn't sell the property to fans, or even to a startup like Studio Archcraft. Sega, Monolithsoft, or Mistwalker, maybe. I wouldn't mind seeing the property go to either of those three, so long as Kato and Mitsuda were brought on board.
They sell to the highest bidder, which in normal not the startups. But look at the recent Terminator movie, that was a startup studio and they got one of the largest names in movies.
-They ignore us, or refuse to set a price. In which case, we're out a few hours of some people's time and the cost of postage to Japan (and if I can find a couple of people to help with the letter, I'll gladly toss that much money at this myself right now)...and maybe someone over there will sit up, take notice, and decide that there might be a profit to be made from this "Chrono" thing after all. Or not, but it can't make things worse.
You know what, there really is no harm in at least trying this much. Whoever is ready to take the helms should do it. Like you said, if we get turned down here, all we'll have lost is time and a wee bit of money.
Draft up a proposal, good friend.
CAREFUL!! There is a harm in trying! The first shot will be the determining factor on how serious they will take us. If they toss this one then they will toss the rest as well, plus we may need Utunnels because it should ideally be in Japanese.
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A market can be established for just about anything: the subprime mortgage crisis being proof of that. So in light of Kebrel's observation that there may be no standard market for IP trading, I wonder if such a market could be established? Or is there a market already and we just aren't aware of it? Securing a loan to start an Intellectual Property trading company may be far more realistic than securing a loan to buy an IP with an arbitrarily high price.
Thanks for the Double Helix info mav. Even if the name is new, the people within it seem pretty well entrenched.
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I have been looking for a while now. http://www.ipmarket.com/ (http://www.ipmarket.com/) is a hub for buying a trading, but only for small names. It is stated everywhere that Large Intellectual Properties, which Chrono Trigger falls in to, are for SE to sell at what price they want and to who they want. Thing is though any competent person knows they will sell it to use if we are able to beat the asking price of the other companies, that may mean letting SE have Royalties and such.
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CAREFUL!! There is a harm in trying! The first shot will be the determining factor on how serious they will take us. If they toss this one then they will toss the rest as well, plus we may need Utunnels because it should ideally be in Japanese.
Like all the other points you made, this one is valid as well. Obviously we shouldn't half-ass this. Trying to secure an IP (even in the preliminary stages) is going to be a large feat. If we really wanna do this, we need to do it seriously, and we need to do it well. I suppose I neglected to mention something in my earlier post--we need to start something. I meant to say, if anyone able can begin proposing how to do this, lets hear those ideas (unless the Compendium wants absolutely nothing to do with this). I didn't mean to imply that whoever wants to try this should jumble something together and throw it at SE's doorstep.
This is going to be a huge project rifled with heartache.
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I'm gonna go ahead and be the big naysayer here. This is not a good idea and you won't get very far unless you decide to stop being a fan community and be legitimate game developers. If you go that far eventually you'll find that original work is more rewarding.
They don't want to continue the series, and from what I've seen we really don't want them to.
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@KebreI: Yes, this is a dream...but it's possible, through patience and effort, to make a dream into a reality. Isn't realizing dreams part of what the SPRINGTIME OF YOUTH is about?
I am not asking ZeaLitY, Agent12, or anyone else to give up their lives for this, although I would be grateful if they would offer to pitch in to the extent they can. Since it was my proposal, I expect to be stuck with a good-sized chunk of the work, and I thought long and hard about that before starting this thread. I wrote the first version of my initial post mere hours after Hashimoto's comment was first posted here, and it sat on my desktop for nearly two days before I decided to take the plunge.
I am not an exceptional person. I haven't been here on the Compendium long. But maybe it's people like me who need to set an example, especially right now.
$32 million is within the bounds of what I was anticipating, actually (toward the high end, but not unexpected). We're talking about buying something from one of the biggest names in the game industry, and it could not possibly come cheap...but if we could convince even half the people who've bought a copy of Chrono Trigger over the years to throw in $20, we'd have enough and then some.
If we get as far as the fundraising part of this, we are going to have to hammer the "precedent" thing for all it's worth, to attract people who have never heard of the Chrono series before, and we are going to have to get this off the Internet and into print and radio/television media if we possibly can. It's going to have to make the publicity surrounding the C&D look small. Like I said, I've tried to think this through.
I know that the Compendium's present charter doesn't permit fundraising. Whether its owners decide to change that in light of my proposal is up to them. We're not that far along yet.
You and everyone else who've said that this has to be done correctly and not half-assedly if we want to have even a ghost of a chance are absolutely right. We have to pursue this in a businesslike manner. What I believe that means at this point is that we will need to send a polite, businesslike letter in Japanese (so yes, we're going to need someone to translate--I can just about sound my way through kana on a good day, but my grasp of Japanese grammar is next to nil) attempting to open negotiations. It would help a lot to have someone who's done something like this on a smaller scale to lend us advice, but I don't know what contacts other people here may have. If anyone has a better idea, please let me know.
@maggiekarp: Guess I should have shown you the code sitting on my #4 desktop before I started in on this, eh?
Seriously, this is not about a game, or game development--or at least, it isn't just about those things. It's also about proving to large companies in general that, in their language, consumers are stakeholders--that we want, and deserve, a share in the worlds they create, which have become a significant part of our culture.
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To me, dude just said that sales didn't reflect popularity (WHICH IS TRUE). I don't think that necessarily means anything for the future of the series. If there were to be an official game in any capacity I would only want it if Kato and Mitsuda were involved. Fangames are nice as fangames though.
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@maggiekarp: Guess I should have shown you the code sitting on my #4 desktop before I started in on this, eh?
Seriously, this is not about a game, or game development--or at least, it isn't just about those things. It's also about proving to large companies in general that, in their language, consumers are stakeholders--that we want, and deserve, a share in the worlds they create, which have become a significant part of our culture.
So what do you plan on doing with it when you have the rights? I understand that the act of buying the IP is about showing the world that the consumers can take action, but thats not what she meant. A game development studio must be established. The team must be skilled and experienced, and there are only a couple people like that here. The $32 mil was just the profit margin to over come, that IP will be more then that as to appeal to SE, plus you will need even more to use the IP when you have it (employees, location, tools, etc).
This is a HUGE bill that some one gonna look at, just for comparison Childsplay the largest video game based charity in the world has only raised 3.5 million since 2003. This will need some company or foundation to donate something hefty.
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@maggiekarp: Guess I should have shown you the code sitting on my #4 desktop before I started in on this, eh?
Seriously, this is not about a game, or game development--or at least, it isn't just about those things. It's also about proving to large companies in general that, in their language, consumers are stakeholders--that we want, and deserve, a share in the worlds they create, which have become a significant part of our culture.
So what do you plan on doing with it when you have the rights? I understand that the act of buying the IP is about showing the world that the consumers can take action, but thats not what she meant. A game development studio must be established. The team must be skilled and experienced, and there are only a couple people like that here. The $32 mil was just the profit margin to over come, that IP will be more then that as to appeal to SE, plus you will need even more to use the IP when you have it (employees, location, tools, etc).
This is a HUGE bill that some one gonna look at, just for comparison Childsplay the largest video game based charity in the world has only raised 3.5 million since 2003. This will need some company or foundation to donate something hefty.
Some of the hardest parts to the programming in 3d is actually the calculus related to it >.>.
That, and making everything run fast enough (60fps or moar!)
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$32 million is within the bounds of what I was anticipating, actually (toward the high end, but not unexpected). We're talking about buying something from one of the biggest names in the game industry, and it could not possibly come cheap...but if we could convince even half the people who've bought a copy of Chrono Trigger over the years to throw in $20, we'd have enough and then some.
No offense, but I find this completely sickening. If someone or a community had $32 million to spend, I'd rather they spend it for a charitable organization or to help out those kids in poor countries that are starving so much they're forced to eat mud cakes with salty butter (true story). $32 million for a video game? Seriously? Obviously no one can save the world and stop poverty in the blink of an eye, but I know if I could raise 32 million bucks I wouldn't spend it on a potential video game.
Was Double Helix a startup, or has it been around awhile? That's the company Square Enix sold off/farmed out Front Mission to. If Double Helix is pretty fresh, maybe Square Enix really is willing to sell to anyone with the money.
I think SE just outsourced one installment to them like they outsourced FF3 and 4 DS to Matrix Software. I doubt they actually sold off the Front Mission series considering its creator Toshiro Tsuchida is still in the company.
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Some of the hardest parts to the programming in 3d is actually the calculus related to it >.>.
That, and making everything run fast enough (60fps or moar!)
Ok, thats not 100% true, but I'm sure theres some truth to it, ok?
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Way I see it, I've rallied up people for crazier things before. Get the support, like somone else here said, get the higher ups of the Compendium's support, and you'll have my support I guess. Til then, I don't think this is worth it THAT much. it'd be better off convincing them to sell off to someone else.
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@Chrono'99: In one sense, that's unanswerable: there's always something better that can be done with money. Including the money in your pocket. Somehow, I don't think you give every cent in your possession that you don't need for immediate survival to charity--I know I certainly don't. You spend some of it on frivolity, just like the rest of us.
So the real issue here is that you think that $32 million is too much money to do something relatively frivolous with like buy out a video game's IP. Which is fine, but you have to remember that that number, if not chosen entirely at random, is still not likely to be Square Enix's exact asking price. So, consider, how low would that price have to go before you would consider it worth it? One million? Ten thousand? One hundred? A bent nickel? At some number, it does become worthwhile, right? So without knowing the number, how are we supposed to make a decision?
@KebreI: Cart before the horse there a bit, I think, but I'll try to answer anyway.
Given the IP, if we want a true sequel game, we go looking for real business-type (not fundraised/donated) funding. And we look for cost-cutting measures. A lot of the expense in developing a modern game comes from the visuals. Minimize the FMVs/fancy motion capture/other lagniappe, and we save some money. Make careful choices about publicity methods--also very expensive--and we could save a lot more. Heck, we could even hire the Dream Team to work on it if we wanted to and could afford it.
$2-$3 million--and it's hard to get business funding in amounts that small--buys you a year's development time with actual qualified and salaried employees, if you spend it appropriately. Sell the finished game at $10 a copy. The novelty and relatively low price should move enough units for it to break even.
Anyway, I'm signing off for the night. If things haven't changed here significantly in the morning, I'll file this under "ideas whose time has not yet come" and stop replying to the thread, because the last thing I want to do is promote more nastiness and division here.
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So, start the donation board... a lot of sites do it so lets take a shot!
(If the CC got the rights.... then i could make money off chrono
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Compendium has a big no-no policy, in regards to donations. If we wanna raise funds, it shouldn't have anything to do with the Compendium.
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why not we allow Xseed to make one? Or...Monolith Studios to work on it? Yes I know I got it wrong.
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Wouldn't it work to just do it on another site or make a site specifically for that purpose?
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Argh, if only I were a year or so older! I'm just starting my Senior portfolio in order to go to video-game college, and I'll be learning the ins and outs of video game creation, so its not so much of a stretch to say that at that point I'd be able to rally support from my community and even help out if Kajar Labs were to become its own company.
But there really is a dearth of Chrono fans at my school as it is. The one kid who's played Cross couldn't care less about Trigger or whether there's a sequel.
So I'm pretty much helpless...
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Seeing as the reaction has been rather lukewarm so far and my RL has taken a turn in an awkward direction over the past twenty-four hours, I'm shelving this idea...for now.
(Sorry if that seems like a cop-out to some people--that really isn't my intention, but without a translator who's willing to help out on this there isn't much I can do anyway. If one turns up, I may reassess.)
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Well I would do the whole make another website thing. Alfadorredux, you don't have to put this on the shelf. Just let people who are interested take over.
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Instead of trying to spend millions of dollars to buy a license, why not just GIVE square the game(s), tell them that you claim no credit or copyright to them at all, and then allow them to sell the games. Then the game sees light to the fans, via an official box and CD or a Wiiware download or something, square makes money, and then possibly gains interest in a sequel.
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It's not that simple, Dinos. For one, all copies of the Crimson Echoes beta should be wiped from all beta testers' computers. Secondly, that idea has been brought up several times and it's gone nowhere. Lastly, Square-Enix wouldn't take interest in this whatsoever.
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Instead of trying to spend millions of dollars to buy a license, why not just GIVE square the game(s), tell them that you claim no credit or copyright to them at all, and then allow them to sell the games. Then the game sees light to the fans, via an official box and CD or a Wiiware download or something, square makes money, and then possibly gains interest in a sequel.
Yeah that might work is Square wasn't a bunch of heartless jerks who care zilch for their fans.
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It's not even about fans it's about money.. Why would a game company turn down an already finished and professional (or at least near) professional quality game that is done. All they have to do is sell it and bam they get free money. Slap that shit into Wiiware or xboxlive or w/e PS3 has.
And yes I know that "all copies are gone" lol.
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Square Enix certainly wouldn't sell the property to fans...
We wouldn't actually need the entire property rights; a limited lisence would do. Something along the lines of "limited non-competing internet derivative rights." IP isn't one thing, its a collection of several smaller rights that is ever growing (if you recall the Writer's Strike of not that long ago, that was the result of new rights being developed without creators being included on the potential profits).
Alternately, HOSTILE TAKEOVER! Buy the stock right out from under them. Now if only Bill Gates was a rabid fan...
So a top Squeenix exec has come right out and said that there will be no further Chrono games in the foreseeable future because sales of the DS version of CT haven't been (in their opinion) high enough. They're effectively saying that the IP associated with the Chrono series is of no value to them.
To be fair, he was talking out of his ass. At least he wiped first.
He complained that a re-release of a game that has been ignored for around 10 years and received minimal advertising did "poorly" in sales. Unless they "developed" CTDS in an f'ed up manner, their profit margins on the venture are through the roof (there should have been almost no development costs and low marketing costs). "Poor sales" is code for "man, I am totally wasted right now."