Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on August 28, 2007, 12:02:57 am
-
Belthasar foreshadows that the party will have to climb Death Peak in 2300 A.D. Yet, how does Belthasar know he's going to die at the Ocean Palace?
Normally, I'd consider this some kind of huge oversight, like the fact that Yuji Horii wrote the concept of the Time Egg long before Masato Kato actually made 12000 B.C.
Anyway, the use of the Time Egg servers no other purpose than to revive Crono. It's tenuous as a result to ascribe this to the Entity's planning or Belthasar's awareness of its actions. What do you think?
It's been some time since I made an analysis forum thread. I am going to bring the hammer down on any fluffy, stupid posts. You know those two threads, "Why Crono?" and "Did Crono die when Porre attacked"? Yeah. 20 pages of absolute nothing. Let's try not to emulate that.
-
Belthasar foreshadows that the party will have to climb Death Peak in 2300 A.D. Yet, how does Belthasar know he's going to die at the Ocean Palace?
Normally, I'd consider this some kind of huge oversight, like the fact that Yuji Horii wrote the concept of the Time Egg long before Masato Kato actually made 12000 B.C.
yea, i havent played in like 6 years, so can we get some citation on these things? having live for line script here would really help.
-
All right, I might as well take a stab at this....
Belthasar foreshadows that the party will have to climb Death Peak in 2300 A.D. Yet, how does Belthasar know he's going to die at the Ocean Palace?
Well, if you consider that Janus already knew about this beforehand, then therein lies a possible answer. Think about it, it sounds kind of extreme to pretend that a little boy (no older than 4 years old) could predict right then and there that Crono would perish shortly (and I am of the idea that he actually knew for a fact it would be Crono and when he who would die, but refused to tell the party so as no to be discredited by them for the 'ramblings' of a crazy child).
If you are of the idea that Janus' black wind abilities are innate than this could work out for it:
Maybe Janus had already forseen this would happen through the interpretation of the Black Wind beforhand, and told Belthasar all about him and how he was going to die.
Rather maybe he was the one who taught him how to be sensible and be able to percieve and listen to the Black Wind's howls and as such, he already knew he would die as soon as he heard about it (in the Black Wind).
If this is true, perhaps Belthasar's own abilites exceed Janus' and he is able to tell not only when and who is close to death, but how it will happen.
Normally, I'd consider this some kind of huge oversight, like the fact that Yuji Horii wrote the concept of the Time Egg long before Masato Kato actually made 12000 B.C.
Wow, I would really like to know 'exactly' what it was that Kato rewrote into Hori's already made up script. That would clear up SO many things for us. Especially for us fans who regard Chrono Cross as the better game in the series.
Anyway, the use of the Time Egg servers no other purpose than to revive Crono. It's tenuous as a result to ascribe this to the Entity's planning or Belthasar's awareness of its actions. What do you think?
I think this could almost constitute yet another plot hole that could be added to CT's already identified ones. Probably the reason it's not listed there would be because of the fact that it's an incomplete plot hole. It is something that was simply left unexplained due to the fact, as you mention, that it was probably an oversight over the writers' different styles making up the game's plot.
-
Especially for us fans who regard Chrono Cross as the better game in the series.
:shock: these people exist??? must have played cross first.. or be like my wife and hate most 16 bit characters...
-
:shock: these people exist??? must have played cross first.. or be like my wife and hate most 16 bit characters...
Yes, they exist and there's quite a few of them actually, specially here at the Compendium.
I'm proud to say I'm one of the them and that I actually played through Chrono Trigger first than Chrono Cross.
Actually I'm also kind of proud of the fact that I played through both games, shortly after their release dates. So yeah, I love them both (and Radical Dreamers too), but I like Cross FAR better than Trigger.
-
On the lines of what dankun was saying:
I think that Janus probably sensed Crono's death and told Belthasar. After all, I believe that the Guru's and Schala and Magus had a close connection, like the Guru's watched over them as their mother was always too busy for them.
It's explain why Melchior would try to save Janus from falling into the time gate and why Belthasar would put the world at risk to try and save Schala.
-
Or, y'know... Belthasar's a crazy old coot. That theory always works.
-
On the lines of what dankun was saying:
I think that Janus probably sensed Crono's death and told Belthasar. After all, I believe that the Guru's and Schala and Magus had a close connection, like the Guru's watched over them as their mother was always too busy for them.
It's explain why Melchior would try to save Janus from falling into the time gate
Yeah, like I said that works out if you believe that only Janus could ever have that ability. However, if you really think about it, I think that Schala also had the ability, mainly due to the fact of what you're saying about how thay both had a closer connection to the Gurus.
So, if you follow this idea, then someone obviously had to teach them some (if not all) of their abilities. And one of those abilities could be being able to listen the 'Black Wind'. So my other theory could also work out, although it doesn't necessarily has to be Belthasar. As one of the other Gurus could have told Belthasar about it, as well.
and why Belthasar would put the world at risk to try and save Schala.
Or, y'know... Belthasar's a crazy old coot. That theory always works.
lol I really think it's funny how some people make out Belthasar to be some sort of crazy old man or a 'megalomaniac' or whatever, just because they don't fully understand why he would think that Project Kid was the only solution for him to be able to save Schala. In other words, in some cases, they just didn't quite understand Cross' plot or haven't played it enough, or just felt betrayed because in some way contradicts Trigger or something.
-
CC "betrayed" CT in the sense that all the player characters that weren't killed off were basically ignored. Not to say I didn't love the game to death, I'm just willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of things I enjoy.
Insane!Belthesar is canon, for chrissakes.
-
On the lines of what dankun was saying:
I think that Janus probably sensed Crono's death and told Belthasar. After all, I believe that the Guru's and Schala and Magus had a close connection, like the Guru's watched over them as their mother was always too busy for them.
It's explain why Melchior would try to save Janus from falling into the time gate and why Belthasar would put the world at risk to try and save Schala.
How can Janus tell Belthasar before Crono ever visits Zeal?
-
I think the Time Egg is merely a safeguard that he left in case one of the heroes (he seems to know there will not only BE a hero that opens the doorways, but actually plural) were to kick the bucket against the almighty power that be Lavos. I mean, it DID throw the Gurus through time...Heck, maybe Belthasar thought they could use it to restore HIM from death! lol. Gotta admit, Belthasar's pretty important too, right?
yea, i havent played in like 6 years, so can we get some citation on these things? having live for line script here would really help.
SCRIPTS (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Scripts.html)
-
CC "betrayed" CT in the sense that all the player characters that weren't killed off were basically ignored. Not to say I didn't love the game to death, I'm just willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of things I enjoy.
Insane!Belthesar is canon, for chrissakes.
Ignored? Think again on that. They weren't ignored, well only two of them were and there were made allusions to them in the form of other characters. Lucca was killed by Lynx. Prometheus (Robo) served a 'great' purpose of stopping FATE from abusing the Frrozen Falme and designating Serge as the Arbiter. Crono and Marle appear as 'ghost' childs in several locations throughout the whole game, a long with Lucca. Hell, even Magus was alluded to in the lettter to Kid from Lucca.
So that leaves us with Frog and Ayla. Glenn and Turnip are a reference to Frog's both forms: Human and a... humanoid something. And Leah clearly is a throwback to Ayla. Even her techs are the same as hers.
So there you go, they weren't ignored.
-
They weren't ignored, well only two of them were and there were made allusions to them in the form of other characters.
"Basically" ignored.
Lucca was killed by Lynx.
Killed.
Prometheus (Robo) served a 'great' purpose
Killed.
Crono and Marle appear as 'ghost' childs
Killed.
even Magus was alluded to
When the arguably most popular character of a game is only BRIEFLY ALLUDED TO in the sequel, you got problems. He's probably dead as well, frozen in the lands of obscurity.
(Glenn Turnip Leah)So there you go, they weren't ignored.
I don't think vague references or similar character designs really count.
I'm not saying I think CC should have just been another adventure for the 7 originals, but nothing you said really refutes my point. Most of the things people loved most about Trigger were killed (sometimes literally) in Cross and it ended up slightly more related to CT than Secret of Evermore is to FF6. People go ga-ga for a CT remake, but the game that desperately needs it is CC.
But I've said these things before, don't like deja vu feelings.
It's just a theory on why folks didn't like CC as a -direct- sequel to CT. It isn't, but that's what they wanted and hoped for.
-
The ghost children aren't really Crono, Marle & Lucca...I still don't think that we have enough evidence to say that Crono & Marle are actually dead.
But no, while I might admit that Leah is obviously your basic Ayla-character, neither Glenn nor Turnip is Frog.
CC picks up where CT left off (well, 20 years later), it just doesn't happen to follow the same characters.
And Magus is out there! The DREAM WILL NEVER DIE!!!
-
you have to play radical dreamers.. the character in the intro Magil? that was magus. but that is a diferent point all together..
I think that Janus probably sensed Crono's death and told Belthasar. After all, I believe that the Guru's and Schala and Magus had a close connection, like the Guru's watched over them as their mother was always too busy for them.
It's explain why Melchior would try to save Janus from falling into the time gate and why Belthasar would put the world at risk to try and save Schala.
Remember that Gaspar and balthazar were both absent when the party reached zeal. and the animation in the game indicates that the three gurus were dragged off to their respective times before chrono and crew arrived to destroy the mammon machine
Chrono cross devietated from the spirit of the game slightly..
They went quantity over qualty on the characters there was not enough background or character development for 2/3ds of them and the other one third if they werent integral important points got minimal character development albiet more than the rest.
They tried to take radical dreamers and tie it into chrono trigger without tying it into chrono trigger at the same time they did a poor job..
Dont get me wrong I love chrono cross.. as a standalone game but it should have been kept as radical dreamers it really does not deserve the chrono name
-
Lies. With that logic, it didn't deserve the name Chrono Trigger 2. But there's no question it takes place in the Chrono universe and is a result of Trigger's plot.
-
Well, because Crono and co go back in time, and back into the future, history is changed.
We don't know exactly what happened the second time around. After Crono and co got teleported out, nobody knows.
That quote about "Melchior and Janus being warped into a gate" doesn't say when or where. It just says it happened.
The most likely probability is that it happened historically at the same time as it did in the original time line, so sometime later after Lavos awoke. All 3 Guru's could have been heading back there, and caught up to Janus, that was when he told Belthasar, or Belthasar knew himself from the black wind, even if he was on the continent or something.
The whole thing is very vague and problematic.
But then again, from Belthasar's perspective, it might also be that it's not that he knew Crono would die, but he simply calculated the chances that a hero would one day time travel, and try and go back to 12,000BC, and should one of them die, there is a back up plan, just like how Belthasar knew that time travellers would one day come and need his Wings of Time.
-
Yeah, saying that either CC or RD don't deserve to be Chrono games or w/e is stupid...Just because CC doesn't develop it's cast of characters like CT did doesn't make it that different. And really, that's not what they did. What they did was take the NPCs and make them Playables. In CT there were plenty of NPCs without much character development.
-
said nothing bad about radical dreamers. what I said was that CC did not earn the chrono title. perhaps radical dreamers two or just left at radical dreamers being a remake/sequal. I absolutly love CC its one of my favorite games but the name doesnt work..
two reasons for the original games name
1. TIME TRAVEL=changing the chronology of the current universe
2. Title character and major plot point
reasons why CC was given the chrono title
1. To attract CT fans
2. to attract Ct fans
3. cause the called serge the chrono trigger which wa s reference only made in teh attempt to link the games together and The precedence set up in CT in no way makes room for serge to be called the chrono trigger. Arbiter would have worked.. but not trigger.
-
The Chrono series is a franchise. No matter why Trigger was called Chrono Trigger, the name carries because it's the same world with the same themes.
-
sigh.... I know that I just personally dont think the game should have carried the title. for instance see radical dreamers did not carry the chrono title
-
Yeah, but Radical Dreamers was released for Satellaview...>_> Plus, it was quite a departure itself from Chrono Trigger...And takes place in an alternate dimension.
And Chrono Cross incorporates much more than a quasi-remake of RD. It directly stems from the events of Chrono Trigger! Plus, there IS some minor time traveling involved...^_^
-
Well I believe that Belthasar was a little crazy from the isolation and believes that Crono is actually Schala.
OLD MAN: Schala...I've missed you so...
OLD MAN: ......
OLD MAN: NO!
You MUST NOT climb Death Peak!
Wouldn't make it very far, anyway!
It has to be the right time...
...and...THEY...have to show you the
way!
(Not sure if thats the quote that your talking about.) So Belthasar could have merely been saying that it wasnt time for Schala to climb death peak, as using the time egg would allow Schala to possibly teleport the others to safety, or defeat Lavos somehow, since originally Crono didnt die, so the time egg, and the climbing of the Death Peak woul otherwise be useless.
-
I don't get whypeople always interpret the line that way... He's talking about how he misses Schala, then warns Crono and them not to climb Death Mountain (Shush, I'm a Zelda fan >>). The Japanese line was much clearer anyway.
-
He's like the old man in RD. Clearly some stuff was left out of the script, and I don't really think it's as deep as you guys are making it. I'll paraphrase and fill in the blanks a bit.
Belthy: Schala? Dang it has been a while!
Party: WTF crazy man
Belthy: ......
Crono: Hey wrinkle-ass, can you tell me about this mountain you're under here?
Belthy: Oh dogg you do not want to mess with that mountain. Bad shit. Well, not like you'd get far anyway, windy as hell. See my inventions? Boy howdy is science awesome. NOW GET OFFA MY LAWN YOU BASTARD KIDS!
At least that's what I'm going with. They seemed a little bit apprehensive about giving them the Trigger, too... But that's fanfic territory.
-
Well im not sure about the whole going to death peak thing, but since the Epoch was originally meant for Belthasar to go back to Zeal, its likely that the time egg was also made to possibly save it from its destruction, unless that changed in the retranslation as well.
-
About why Death Peak, remember that the mountain didin't exist at ay other time, and that the Ocean Palace was a floating one... Do you get my idea?
Then I'll translate: the Time Egg moved them in time, but not in space. That place in the Death Peak was probably the exactly same place that the room of the castle was at that time.
As to why he created the Chrono Trigger... It was an incomplete one. With a complete one, he probably would be able to go back to Zeal and avoid the awakening of Lavos (by pretending to be a prophet like Magus did, maybe?).
-
Belthasar foreshadows that the party will have to climb Death Peak in 2300 A.D. Yet, how does Belthasar know he's going to die at the Ocean Palace?
Normally, I'd consider this some kind of huge oversight, like the fact that Yuji Horii wrote the concept of the Time Egg long before Masato Kato actually made 12000 B.C.
Anyway, the use of the Time Egg servers no other purpose than to revive Crono. It's tenuous as a result to ascribe this to the Entity's planning or Belthasar's awareness of its actions. What do you think?
It's been some time since I made an analysis forum thread. I am going to bring the hammer down on any fluffy, stupid posts. You know those two threads, "Why Crono?" and "Did Crono die when Porre attacked"? Yeah. 20 pages of absolute nothing. Let's try not to emulate that.
I don't think the Time Egg's purpose is to revive Crono specifically. Gaspar was trying to create one since years before 12,000 B.C. according to the Japanese script:
[Young Woman]
It's said that the Philosopher of Time Hasch-sama
is quietly continuing to research time on a small
island somewhere.
He's making a "Time Egg", or something......
However, it has been many years now since
anyone has seen him......
Could Gaspar really have foreshadowed Crono's death, even though it wouldn't happen until years later in normal time and something like two Keystone timelines later in Time Error? It's unlikely in my opinion, even though I guess it could be remotely possible. If it's the case, maybe the Gurus didn't really foreshadow Crono's death themselves but were made aware of it by the Entity? Either thanks to their magic powers somehow giving them a special contact with the planet's will (would be utterly convenient for Project Kid...), or thanks to some Nus being talkative for once and giving them the message.
A possibility which I think may be more likely is that Belthasar was simply not thinking about Crono nor any other hero of time. Here's Kwhazit's notes about Belthasar's Japanese lines:
In the NA version, Belthasar warns that the party cannot climb Death Peak until the time is right and the Poyozos show them the way. In the JP version, Belthasar told them that unless they were those "people" (the heroes), they could not climb the mountain -- at least not in its present state, meaning Belthasar was probably still preparing the Poyozo dolls.
Belthasar was apparently stopping the party from going to Death Peak not because Crono wasn't dead yet but because he simply hadn't finished making the dolls. Belthasar was hoping some time travelers carrying the Time Egg would find him (Belthasar). By creating the 3 Poyozo dolls and stuff, perhaps he was hoping these time travelers could revive... Schala?
-
That many years line has to be a dialogue inconsistency which Woolsey accidentally dodged. There's too much evidence that the Prophet arrived a few days before the Ocean Palace Incident, not several years.
perhaps he was hoping these time travelers could revive... Schala?
Ah...that's a magnificent possibility...
-
Mmh, yeah, I forgot about the Prophet and assumed that Gaspar was making a Time Egg in the pre-Prophet timeline too (just for fun... er, scientific studies), but I guess it's not really important. Perhaps Gaspar doesn't often make public appearances so it's been "many years since anyone has seen him", while his actual hiding from the Prophet was more recent.
Anyway, I forgot to write something else (to be clear): I think the Time Egg was originally planned to revive Melchior or whoever could die trying to destroy the Mammon Machine with the Masamune. The Gurus didn't know that Schala would die. However, things went unexpectedly with the Ocean Palace incident, so Belthasar in the future decided it could revive Schala.
-
I think we're all missing something.
Yes, the Time Egg can be used to save someone's life, but what if it wasn't intended that way? What if it was just an experiment in time travel, perhaps even something Gaspar was working on in tangent with Belthesar, or perhaps just following his own line of research, and the only one he ever finished making was the one that he would hand over to Chrono's friends so Chrono could be revived?
-
I think we're all missing something.
Yes, the Time Egg can be used to save someone's life, but what if it wasn't intended that way? What if it was just an experiment in time travel, perhaps even something Gaspar was working on in tangent with Belthesar, or perhaps just following his own line of research, and the only one he ever finished making was the one that he would hand over to Chrono's friends so Chrono could be revived?
Yeah but that doesn't explain why Belthasar was working on 3 Poyozo dolls and expecting the party to go to Death Peak. Moreover, the Nu who gives the instructions on how to revive someone ends his speech with "The message from me is now complete.", suggesting that Belthasar specifically programmed this message into the Nu (and before Crono died).
In any case, I've realized that the stuff about reviving Schala makes no sense.... Schala didn't even die in the no-Crono timeline! It could be said that Belthasar didn't know that she survived and thus intended the Time Egg to revive her, but that makes the explanation both awkward and too convenient (his plan would be unnecessary, yet ends up conveniently useful for another person...).
So, perhaps Belthasar really did foreshadow Crono's death? Maybe he felt the Black Wind howls like Janus? In this case, Belthasar wasn't preparing the Poyozo dolls when the party met him; he actually began to prepare the Poyozo dolls because he met the party. Sounds possible?
-
I guess it is possible to beat Lavos before the Ocean Palace Incident ever occurs, and therefore not need the Poyozo Dolls. Yeah, maybe they were a backup plan...
-
I think that sounds reasonable enough, Chrono'99, the whole "Making the Poyozo Dolls only AFTER meeting Chrono's party" bit.
-
I thought that he says it has to be used up on Death Peak for whatever reason...some high energy field or something sciencey maybe? And the Time Egg allows the user to return to a specific point in time AND you can change someone, but only if they're deemed important enough to...uh...whoever...the Entity, I guess. But does that mean you have to use it to save someone? How much time were they given as the Time Egg worked? Maybe they were trying to stop time & destroy Lavos...seems like that might be his ultimate goal, yeah?
-
I suppose this is now down to the question of whether psychic prophecy is possible in the Chronoverse. Masato Kato authored all of Zeal, including Janus's prophecy, but it may have just been dramatic foreshadowing. If Janus knew Crono would die, why didn't he know several others would too? Why didn't that apparent clarity tell him (let alone other people who can feel the Black Wind and are older, like Schala) that the Ocean Palace was going to explode? But not even considering Janus, Belthasar had to have the foresight to know Crono would die several days, or even weeks beforehand. The Retranslation tells us that he prepared the Epoch as a way to return home, but had to abandon his work in the end and leave it to the party.
Are there any other examples of prophecy? All the Dragonian prophecy turned out to be totally scripted by Belthasar, and the legend of Lavos never really carried a distinct prophecy with it foretelling of ruin. Magus was a distinctly false Prophet. Belthasar's language is precise:
BELTHASAR: Enough.
The time has come for you to
attempt «Death Peak.» It's the only
chance you have of reviving your
friend.
So, what is the final judgment? Are there any possible explanations? Does this also condemn Janus and the concept of the Black Wind? I mean, if that entire concept is written into canon, then perhaps there is some sort of extra-sensory awareness among Shadow innates of likely future events in history. Still, predestination in a series devoted to changing history...
-
I have one theory.
This theory assumes that the Entity is what caused the eclipse and helped the party go back to the Ocean Palace. Gaspar communicated to Belthasar a plan to use the Time Egg on top of Death Peak to try and defeat Lavos; perhaps the Time Egg was even designed to go to that instant in the Ocean Palace so that Lavos could be defeated there and prevent Zeal from falling. Gaspar was aware of the Entity's plan to use adventurers at this point, but did not use this plan as the party were going to arrive in Zeal anyway, it seemed. Belthasar still assumed it would take place, and made plans to allow access to Death Peak. All that changed when Crono died at the Ocean Palace and the party could not defeat Lavos there, suggesting to Gaspar that they weren't ready (and thus needed the sidequests and more time). Gaspar still had the Time Egg on hand, and decided to give it to the party and make use of the original plan so that Crono, a very powerful warrior who could help defeat Lavos, could be revived and the mission completed later. So he corresponded with Belthasar, or perhaps Belthasar knew some other way (this is iffy).
Issues include A) this means Gaspar corresponded with Belthasar. It is not proven that the Gurus had any real communication. There is still a slight basis for this since Belthasar in the Nu does talk of the entire quest against Lavos; B) this assumes that the Nu is sentient; that it doesn't just have prerecorded messages, but could think enough to know that the original plan was scrapped and the party intended to revive Crono, C) We're assuming Gaspar had the double intention of saving Zeal along with defeating Lavos at the Ocean Palace, and D) the entire game is still geared towards the original narrative that Belthasar knew EXACTLY what he was doing all along and that Crono would die.
The fact that this seems like a pretty far out workaround...I don't know. It's just hard to stomach. We don't know who authored the Crono's death portion, but since the death physically happens in 12000 B.C., it might be Kato. It's hard to inject this much Compendium canon into a scenario scripted for a different thematic purpose.
-
Perhaps, in the desolate era Belthasar wound up, he figured that anyone who found his shiny letters (why the hell DO they shine? *wakka wakka*) would have someone close to them dead...Also, it might just be that through deduction he figured anyone who could have something Dreamstone charged with Lavos' energy to get through the door (though, really, would it be impossible for anyone to blast through one of the walls? i've always wondered that...but anyways...) would be someone VERY important.
Also, perhaps the Black Wind is related to the Entity somehow and that's why they could feel it around Crono and the whole situation w/Lavos & Q. Zeal. Maybe the Black Wind is another (like i suppose Masa, Mune & Doreen) 'agent' of the Entity...though a less corporeal type...*shrugs*
Either way, perhaps Belthasar (with future means?), knew about the Entity enough to figure that it would send someone to try and stop Lavos...
-
It's still tough to believe that he programmed the Poyozos and Nu exactly for that function so far in advance. I mean, there's no mention of an alternate use for those Poyozos.
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/e/e3/Newplothoel.jpg)
-
Well...there are the other Poyozos in the game...most notably in the same era are the ones in the factory which are used as locks...perhaps they form some kind of energy link that allows the door to the Mother Brain to open?
-
Magus was a distinctly false Prophet.
Was he? Certainly, it isn't like he had some mystical knowledge of the future; these weren't psychic prophesies. However, he still told Queen Zeal and (presumably) other people what was going to happen before it happened. Strictly speaking, that is prophesy. Why should it be discounted because he only knew the future because he lived through it (and, presumably, was able to deduce that Crono and Co would follow him)?
Lavos can use magic. It also influenced human evolution in some manner, which eventually developed their ability to use magic. Lavos, seems to have an awareness of time itself that transends the strict here and now. Could that ability have begun to seep into humans as well?
Ayla, the only character without Lavos influence, seems to have an underdeveloped sense of time (but who knows if that is just because she is a "cave woman")
Certainly, Belthasar seems to need a super-human sense of time in order to enact project kid (he'd have to know that these changes in the timeline would result in these effects, sort of like how a pool player uses their sight and mind to know where to hit the que). Gaspar likewise displays a super-human sense of time as he senses what the party needs to do and how certain actions can change their "future."
This needn't be absolute knowledge of the future, just an understanding of how likelihoods will play out. Janus predicts Crono will die because, by all appearances to him at the time, that is where he is heading (just like an expert pool player can predict where a billiard ball will go after being hit). Belthasar knows that the party will need the dolls and will need to climb death peak by the same ability.
Call it a knowledge of 4th dimensional trigonometry.
-
Yeah, I should have said that Magus's fortune telling relied on childhood memories. Archiving discussion:
Why that spot?
That's a good question. The simplest answer is game design, as it's obvious that's why Belthasar's talking about it so early in the first place. The game makes the Chrono Trigger sound notoriously sketchy to activate:
"Gasch: Death Mountain holds the power to
make a person come back to life.
However, in order to draw out that power, that
person must be a truly important and
necessary existence.
Furthermore, a doll identical to that person is
essential.
In that case, the egg should hatch."
1. What is so special about Death Peak?
2. How do you define a "truly important and necessary existence"?
3. Why on earth do you need a doll?
This is complicated by the fact that in Radical Dreamers, Kid's Time Egg causes a temporal distortion without any of this crap getting involved and in some nondescript location, and in Chrono Cross, Masa and Mune used Kid's incomplete Time Egg to send Serge back in time while in some guy's hollowed out tree basement. So right now, the Compendium school of thought is:
1. Nothing's special about Death Peak; it's an aspect of game design to have a big cinematic scene with the eclipse and everything. Or rather, the significance of Death Peak is unknown, and that's slightly enough to keep it out of the hole basket.
2. Belthasar was being dramatic.
3. So that Lavos would not notice Crono's disappearance and realize at that point in history that the threat of time travelers existed, or something.
But even if Death Peak somehow is significant, nothing is done there except the revival of Crono, and Belthasar only learns the party has a Time Egg and whatnot when they talk to him inside the Nu (ergo he's not chatting it up with Gaspar). So he's still building Poyozo Dolls for someone to use to climb Death Peak early in the game for no good reason.
Even that ability is radically different and unique in the Chrono world. For Project Kid, he may have had the use of the Neo Epoch, the power of the greatest supercomputer ever built (which was on an island far from Belthasar in CT's 2300 A.D.), and most importantly, the Entity's aid (the extent of which is unknown).
-
This is complicated by the fact that in Radical Dreamers, Kid's Time Egg causes a temporal distortion without any of this crap getting involved and in some nondescript location, and in Chrono Cross, Masa and Mune used Kid's incomplete Time Egg to send Serge back in time while in some guy's hollowed out tree basement.
El Nido could be seen as being pretty important, if for no other reason than the magical energies of the Power Spots then how about the nearness of the temporal disturbance of the Dead Sea?...And Hermit's Hideaway (wait, is that where it happens?) is near the center of El Nido...
-
Even that ability is radically different and unique in the Chrono world. For Project Kid, he may have had the use of the Neo Epoch, the power of the greatest supercomputer ever built (which was on an island far from Belthasar in CT's 2300 A.D.), and most importantly, the Entity's aid (the extent of which is unknown).
Certainly, the use of the Neo-Epoch and "the greatest supercomputer ever built" are substantial benefits, but are they enough to explain the god-like implementation of Project Kid? I would propose that alone they do not.
1) The Neo Epoch: A terribly useful device; it could not only allow him to gather data to formulate his plan, but he could have also used it to nudge “history” in the right direction if it wasn’t heading towards his desired goal (has it ever been discussed if Belthasar might have been the one to cause the fall of Porre?) However, its use is limited by Belthasar’s own life span. He had 13000ish years worth of history to predict (could he even predict when Lavos might pull Chronopolis back?) and control; certainly he couldn’t have given his full attention to all those years (and all the people that there entails).
2) Fate: Of course, FATE is terribly useful for controlling factors for most of history; it prevented the citizens of El Nido from behaving in a way that would alter time beyond what Belthasar planned for. Unfortunate, that doesn’t apply to every other human in the world that could have been influenced by El Nido (consider Porre; Belthasar couldn’t rely on FATE to ensure that they behaved according to plan). As for FATE helping him plan, the computer had a "huge repository of historical knowledge dating back to prehistory," but as the existence of the civilization of Zeal was not known definitively by Chronopolis Scientists, this repository seems to have significant limitations. Even apart from this, the repository could not have contained complete information on contemporary times (recorded history just doesn’t contain the sort of information necessary to definitively predict counterfactual histories).
Without overarching principles, Belthasar planning Project Kid seems like an impossibility. There are too many variable that remain unknown (and unknowable) for Belthasar to construct a definite route to producing Serge as he is in the game. It would be akin to throwing a beach's worth of sand into the air in such a manner so that, when it fell, it would produce a perfect model of Edinburgh Castle. It is possible, but it is an undertaking that seems to be totally beyond the means available.
Yet I said “without overarching principles.” At first glance, Project Kid seems even more difficult than throwing sand to make Edinburg Castle; at least sand always falls down. Yet why shouldn’t there be laws governing the behavior of time, just as gravity governs the behavior of falling objects. Admittedly, assuming a natural "sixth sense" about how time works is probably too much, but Zeal was a highly advanced civilization and at least two of the Guru's worked extensively with time. It is not unreasonable to suppose that Zeal in general (and possibly just the Guru's in specific) were able to develop an understanding of 4th dimensional laws of physics; a framework for understanding how changes to the timeline will play out. This is actually supported by Gaspar, who was working on a device to restore lost timelines. Such careful manipulations of time would seemingly require substantial understanding about the mechanics behind the loss of those timelines in the first place. With enough experience working with such a level of temporal science, one might just as easily gain an intuitive knowledge of time (again, just like how a pool player can develop an intuitive understanding of how billiard balls will bounce off each other and the sides of the table).
With such a scientific background, Belthasar could have intuitively known (but still based on mathematical principles) that Crono and Co were headed on such a course through time as would result in the need for them to use a time egg (presumably, in this timeline he never built one of his own).
However that still wouldn't necessarily explain why he conceived of the poyozo before he met Crono (he references them, but it isn't certain that they existed at that point). Unless, that is, he knew that the que ball had been hit (and even if he didn't see that happen, he knew history well enough to know what balls it needed to hit in turn and thus was able to deduce where it would come from and where it would be heading). As you said, the Entity helped him in some ways (the extent of which is not known), so it may have been as simple as the Entity communicating in some manner that it had started a traveler down a path that could lead to the salvation of the future.
Anywho, just a
Thought
-
Well, Belthasar is obviously some kind of temporal mechanics/chaos savant capable of improbable computations. :P
Perhaps the Poyozos are more significant...Two of those on Death Peak basically just give clues, but the first actually changes into a tree...>_>
-
Well, Belthasar is obviously some kind of temporal mechanics/chaos savant capable of improbable computations. :P
Exactly, and if one is, others could be too. Thus, prophesies in the game may merely be a result of "improbable computations."
Perhaps the Poyozos are more significant...Two of those on Death Peak basically just give clues, but the first actually changes into a tree...>_>
Good point. Really, only one Poyozo is even needed to climb Death Peak and battle Ganon (wait... that's Death Mountain, sorry). Thus, Belthasar seems to have been wrong in saying "THEY have to show you the way."
-
"Push the shell, climb the shell" was kind of helpful...Odd too that that's the only shell that remains on-screen after the Spawn is defeated...
-
Apparently some Lavos spawns leave their shell behind when they die, Lavos does the same when you fight him, although he developed a core.
What I found mostly weird is that Lavos is nowhere to be found on Death Peak. I remember Belthasar saying Lavos was reigning high atop Death Peak at some point.
-
Yeah, Belthasar says alot of things... though, to be fair, I doubt the level was supposed to represent the entirety of Death Peak, so perhaps Lavos was just somewhere else (in the john, perhaps).
It isn't so strange that some Lavos spawn leave their shells behind when they die, it is that only a few do and a few do not. One would normally expect all such things to behave in a similar manner.
But as for "push the shell, climb the shell"... really, that isn't that helpful. Perhaps they had to cut out a fourth poyozo that told the party "keep breathing, oxygen is good."
-
You say "a few do"...but if I recall it's just that ONE.
-
That's because Lavos only got to make three of them. If Crono wouldn't have started his journey, many Lavos Spawns would have probably spread around the world, and probably around half of them would leave their shell behind when killed.
-
"Push the shell, climb the shell" was kind of helpful...Odd too that that's the only shell that remains on-screen after the Spawn is defeated...
I always believed that the reason for that, was probably because it's the only one that had time to start developing a 'core'. It is the last Lavos Spawn that you have to fight, after all.
Yeah, Belthasar says alot of things... though, to be fair, I doubt the level was supposed to represent the entirety of Death Peak, so perhaps Lavos was just somewhere else (in the john, perhaps).
Where's the rest of the level then? Why is it only this location in the game, that the party doesn't get to fully explore?
In stead of venturing wild gueses and speculating, a direct quote from Belthasar would provide a more accurate answer to this dilemma.
It isn't so strange that some Lavos spawn leave their shells behind when they die, it is that only a few do and a few do not. One would normally expect all such things to behave in a similar manner.
I believe that they all do. It's just that not all of them had the time to develop their inner 'core'.
But as for "push the shell, climb the shell"... really, that isn't that helpful. Perhaps they had to cut out a fourth poyozo that told the party "keep breathing, oxygen is good."
Right. That advice isn't any use at all... to you, having already played the game countless times and have pretty much memorized all the key aspects of climbing Death Mountain.
-
I always believed that the reason for that, was probably because it's the only one that had time to start developing a 'core'. It is the last Lavos Spawn that you have to fight, after all.
I don't suppose you could offer "a direct quote from Belthasar," which "would provide a more accurate answer to this dilemma," instead of "venturing wild guesses and speculating?" ;)
Where's the rest of the level then? Why is it only this location in the game, that the party doesn't get to fully explore?
In stead of venturing wild gueses and speculating, a direct quote from Belthasar would provide a more accurate answer to this dilemma.
Actually, I never assumed any "level" in the game is supposed to represent the entirely of the local. Consider Crono's house; there is only one bedroom, and only one bed, but two people live there. Are we to assume that Crono and his mother sleep in the same bed? Or indeed, as there are fewer beds in the game than there are NPCs, what does everyone do at night time? Are there shifts for who can sleep when? For those who don't get a bed, well it doubly sucks for them since they'll be going to sleep hungry, what with the total lack of farms in the game and all. Even for the ones who get a bed, things still don't look good for their future, as the world of Crono Trigger must suffer horrendously from inbreeding, with the world lacking a sufficient and diverse population.
So Lavos could be on Death Peak, just somewhere that wasn't included in the level, just like Crono's mother could still have her own room, or there could be farms in the world, or how towns might have populations in the triple didgets (rather than 20ish at best).
Right. That advice isn't any use at all... to you, having already played the game countless times and have pretty much memorized all the key aspects of climbing Death Mountain.
Actually, that advice isn't any use at all to anyone. If you'll allow me to be anecdotal for a moment; I volunteer in a nursery, watching over and taking care of kids that are 18-24 months old. One of the reasons children that age need to be watched is that they have a tendency to climb. If they see something they want that is out of reach, they have no problem pushing a toy over to it and climbing up it. If "pushing" and "climbing" are problem solving abilities that 2year old have, I'd expect anyone playing this game (and certainly the Crono Co.) to be able to figure this conundrum out without the help of the creations of the genius behind Project Kid (and really, it calls Belthasar's intelligence into question if he thought this was vital information that the team couldn't do without). As an aside, apes display this same sort of problem solving abilities.
-
You bring up a good point...Belthasar WAS insane after all...maybe one outta three was Crono & Co's good fortune? What if he hadn't made that first one turn into a tree and the team had to duck behind the tiny little doll-thing? Oh man, someone's gotta make that pic for the Oekaki! LOL
-
Actually, I think we'd have been fairly luck if the poyozo just didn't transform into a tree. I mean really; old man, alone in a post-apocalyptic future, no access to women (or men). That poyozo doll could have easily turned into something far worse... or, as a doll, was it already worse than the tree?
-
Pushing the Lavos Spawn shell and climbing up it always seemed oddly out of place to me.
i was scared as hell when the shell stayed in place. i thought that there was a glitch in the game or that i didnt kill him right.
it took me about 20 minutes to figure out its purpose the first time i played through it.
What I found mostly weird is that Lavos is nowhere to be found on Death Peak. I remember Belthasar saying Lavos was reigning high atop Death Peak at some point.
When's Lavos supposed to be gone?
For that, you'd have to ask Mother Brain. Presumably, like any virus, the original copy dies in the production of its spawn (it is a bit curious that 2300 is the only era in which Lavos cannot appear).
I rest my case.
-
Wait, what points are you addressing? Especially w/that last one which I still don't think is exactly right...Using quotes to accent a post is great...but using quotes to answer quotes can be difficult unless you master the secret arts of the forum ninja/pirate/robots.
-
Wait, what points are you addressing? Especially w/that last one which I still don't think is exactly right...
My point with that last one was that Lavos doesn't seem to be anywhere in 2300ad. I was just proving that Thought's inherent suggestion that Lavos is still there was completely speculative, specially when his only proof for saying it is an inaccurate observation of how the world in Trigger might function.
As for where the hell could he be... I just don't know. Maybe he took off to other planets, or maybe he did in fact died after spawning the three lavos spawns. Who knows, right? That was my whole point. When it comes to Lavos, most (if not all) of our theories can only reach speculation leval, at best. We barely know anything about him!!
Using quotes to accent a post is great...but using quotes to answer quotes can be difficult unless you master the secret arts of the forum ninja/pirate/robots.
hehehe... who's to say that I haven't? lol
-
Hmm...but the game states that Lavos is still there. Thus the speculation comes from whether he's NOT there.
-
Hmm...but the game states that Lavos is still there. Thus the speculation comes from whether he's NOT there.
That's debatable. It all depends on what exactly Belthasar tells the party. Which is why I said a 'direct quotation' was needed to correctly address the problem. And since no one seems willing to provide it....
To those who opened the door...
I am Belthasar, the Guru of Reason.
I once lived in the kingdom of Zeal.
A great disaster in Zeal somehow
threw me into this era.
To my surprise, Lavos exists here, and,
I suspect, in other periods as well.
Aeons ago, Lavos descended from the
heavens.
Burrowing deep into the the world's
core, he began to consume our planet's
energy, and grow stronger.
Lavos disappeared briefly when he
was summoned away by a mighty
wizard who lived in Guardia, in the
year 600.
In 1999, Lavos claims this area, and
reigns from high atop Death Peak.
Lavos continues to replicate......
like a giant parasite, he is consuming
our world.
Forced to live here, I continued to
conduct research on Lavos.
To those who opened the door......
I am the Philosopher of Reason, Gasch.
Gasch, of the Magic Kingdom Zeal.
I was flung to this age at the time of Zeal's
great disaster......
To my surprise, Lavos's appearance was not
just in my era......
It fell from the sky in a distant ancient era,
appeared in Zeal, lay dormant deep
underground, and continued to grow while
sucking up this earth's energy......
The time is Kingdom Year 600.
Magus summons it, and it briefly appears.
Kingdom Year 1999
It at last makes the surface its territory too.
And then, just as if laying eggs, it gives
birth to its own offshoots, one after another, [offshoots = 'bunshin', one of those words that doesn't translate
from the place I named Death Mountain. well. Sort of, but not exactly,'clone'.]
Lavos is an enormous parasite that nests in
the planet itself.
I have continued the observation and study of
Lavos here.
Clearly, the matter is up to interpretation. As you can obviously tell from the translation differences. Notice the emphasized words and their counterparts. My interpretation is that he may have still been there, until just a few moments before the party needed to climb Death Peak.
Also notice the remarks he makes about studying Lavos as an organism. As demonstrated by the explanation he gives to the party about everything that Lavos was known to be responsible for, I believe that his research sufficed to enable him to predict when Lavos would decide to leave the planet.
In fact, this could give another meaning or function to what exactly the Poyozo Dolls were designed for. To study and observe Lavos and report to Belthasar about everything he did.
-
When does it say Lavos is going to leave the planet though? From what he says it's still there in 1999...
Lavos continues to replicate......
like a giant parasite, he is consuming
our world.
Forced to live here, I continued to
conduct research on Lavos.
Lavos is an enormous parasite that nests in
the planet itself.
I have continued the observation and study of
Lavos here.
-
On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.
-
On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.
On top of...what? What is this comment apropos to??
-
When does it say Lavos is going to leave the planet though? From what he says it's still there in 1999...
I said that the matter is up to interpretation, and forever will be until we get an answer from another canonical source (i.e. another Chrono game). Read it again. Make sure to pay attention to the emphasized words.
In both versions, he compares Lavos to a giant parasite that "continues to 'replicate'", as per what a virus actually does. This implies (to me, at least) that Lavos is indeed somewhat of a 'parasite' or 'virus', in that it acts in very similar ways to a hostile organism. So perhaps he didn't leave the planet after all... and just spawned itself into three separate organisms.
I only said that he left the planet, because it would actually seem like the most sensible thing for him to do. After all, careful analysis of both versions do not necessitate for him to be there at that particular moment (as he could have conducted all of his research prior to the time when the party climbs Death Peak)
On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.
Says who? Only you and your complete lack of imagination; who can't begin to realize that just because something isn't spelled out for you loud and clear, doesn't make something any less true.
Enough.
The time has come for you to
attempt «Death Peak.» It's the only
chance you have of reviving your
friend.
The last program I've implanted in
this creature's memory banks will
help you up the mountain.
Stand back.
Yes, it should be fine.
It seems the time has come when "Death
Mountain" will accept you.
It's the last chance to make your precious
companion come back to life.
The truly final programs I input into this
object are support to guide you to that
mountain!
Stand back a little.
-
Comparisons to a parasite does not make Lavos a parasite. Whatever Lavos is, it's beyond normal comparisons anyways...If it's said in-game that it's still there, as it is, then why assume that it is not? Occam's razor!
Also, those last quotes make it sound like the Poyozo dolls were in fact a part of the Nu or something...I forget, but doesn't the Nu go into the room where the Epoch is originally and then the Poyozo come out and then the Nu follows? Or does the Nu only open the door and the Poyozo enter? I don't remember if there was enough room for both the Nu sprite to stand there and the Poyozo to enter or not...If the Nu exits, Poyozo enter, then Nu follows after, that would almost suggest also that the Poyozo came from within the Nu itself somehow (where else in that room would they have come from, right?)...hmmm...
-
I'd like to address a few things,
1. Multiple people in the topic complained about Janus predicted (felt the Black Wind around Crono or the party) a death, but not being able to predict the Ocean Palace disaster. This is completely off. Janus and Schala were sick worried about feeling the Black Wind, and so Schala wanted to avoid at all costs to summon Lavos.
2. Belthasar's prophetic abilities are out of record, it's something much greater than the Black Wind. While the Black Wind seems to give me a reading of "bad energy" or "death chill" or "bad presentiment", Belthasar's prophecy is exact. By Chrono Cross Belthasar called himself the Prophet of Time, we never saw anyone else call him that before. I think speculation is great but it really could be anything: the Nu, contact with the Planet, contact with Lavos, the Black Wind, or any mixture or relation of any.
3. Lavos reigns from IN the planet, that's all that is really said. "Atop Death Peak" is Woosley's invention. Lavos could nest inside the planet NOWHERE near Death Peak. But probably close, since the Black Omen is pretty close to Death Peak in 2300 AD, and his spawns are in Death Peak, after all.
4. Now, here's what you're forgetting, Mother Brain is the one who talks about Lavos leaving the planet:
[Mother Brain]
Listen well, humans.
Lavos's children will one day have to
leave to seek new planets, and prey.
[Mother Brain]
'LiSTEN, foolish fragile defective living
creatures......
Lavos's children WILL LIKELY return to
space soon.
Seeking new PREY, new planets......
Yup, she's talking about Lavos children only, as if not minding Lavos at all, as if Lavos had already left the Planet. So:
a) Either Belthasar didn't knew/was delirating/didn't care/didn't have time to check if Lavos had already left the Planet when you can first talk to him, or when he was writing his shiny notes that declared that Lavos nests IN the Planet.
b) Lavos left the Planet in 2300 AD somewhere during the game (anytime since when you leave 2300 AD till when you visit Mother Brain), this would be possible with no crater or other evidence if he came out from the ground under the sea, and not on a continent. So, Lavos sufraced, went WHEEE I R A ROCKET, and its spawns will LIIIIIIIIKEEELYY do the same.
-
Yup, she's talking about Lavos children only, as if not minding Lavos at all, as if Lavos had already left the Planet.
Pure speculation! Just because someone fails to mention something else that doesn't mean that it's no longer around. I mean, that's like saying, "The kids are probably gonna leave the house soon." and then automatically assuming that means that the parents have already left...What kind of sense does coming to such a conclusion like that make and what folly led you down such a ridiculous path? >_>
One thing, though...if Lavos left the PD at ANY point, that would mean that Crono & Co. would not be able to fight it whenever it is that they do...So if you think that Lavos is GOING to leave, I could believe that (although that Mother Brain quote seems to suggest that Lavos is stickin around, actually)...but in 2300AD Lavos is still there.
-
One thing, though...if Lavos left the PD at ANY point, that would mean that Crono & Co. would not be able to fight it whenever it is that they do...
Unless Lavos was never in a PD to begin with. That theory solves a lot of problems, but it raises a few other questions as well.
But aye, if you shake Lavos and turn him over, "all signs point" to him still being on the planet.
-
Oh yeah, Mother Brain, the smartest Artifical Inteligence in the story of the Planet, just casually decided not to mention the cause of the Apocalypse which it's working to overcome, and just randomly talked about its children, who had done nothing till the moment, just because it felt like it (°< ridiculous my arse, my folly mate! I never stated this as a truth, but in-game text denotes it as a well baised POSSIBILITY. That's why I said "as if".
So calm down, we're ALL just throwing out theories, after all. I'm not twisting the text to fit my theories either, actually I believe Lavos didn't left the Planet, yet at least. Some people here say maybe it died, it divided into 3 spawns, it will rest at his pocket dimension inside the earth forever, etc. All those are valid theories, since there isn't an official truth. I do agree with the Pocket Dimension one making the most sense.
If you wanna hear crazy out of nowhere folly, I always had the idea that the Death Peak itself was Lavos' big shell after having a nice planetary lunch :P or well, at least its shell covered by earth.
-
Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?
A: It doesn’t matter, and this is why- If they did, then it would’ve been sent to the DBT, along with the events between Crono ever dying (up to Death Peak). If they didn’t, then the pendant that Marle was holding on to (because of Crono’s death) would’ve been sent to the DBT, along with the events between Crono ever dying (up to Death Peak). Either way, there’s no need for the Time Egg or Pryozo Dolls, since the party from PD-1 would have been ‘warped’ to Death Peak, right before Crono committed martyrdom. This makes sense, since there’s no point in trying to resurrect a clone. That means Gaspar never really gives them the Time Egg. Maybe Belthasar knew that Gaspar would give Crono & Company the Time Egg, if any problems arisen. Maybe Belthasar made the Pryozo Dolls to preserve the Time Egg for another purpose. 8)
-
Oh yeah, Mother Brain, the smartest Artifical Inteligence in the story of the Planet, just casually decided not to mention the cause of the Apocalypse which it's working to overcome, and just randomly talked about its children, who had done nothing till the moment, just because it felt like it...
Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)? In the NA translation she is trying to preserve Lavos and its spawn, while in the retranslation she is largely ignoring them both, concerned only with their effect on humanity (which she is working against; the entire "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit).
Considering that the Lavos Spawn were apparently the entire reason for the Apocalypse, even if they hadn't done much themselves (and they were still feeding off the planet, so that is doing a large something), it makes sense that when one is talking about the fall of humanity that one would talk about the reason for that fall. As for not mentioning Lavos, meh, that is like talking about the Fall of Rome and not talking about Fritigern. ;)
Also, there is no indication that Mother Brain was "the smartest Artificial Intelligence in the story of the Planet." Indeed, I'd argue that Robo, Doreen/the Pendant, the Pryozo Dolls, the Epoch, the Time Egg, and even the Nu that Belthasar programmed all are contenders for "the smartest Artificial Intelligence" in known Chrono-History.
Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?
Maybe, but the implication is that Crono didn't necessarily have the pendant at that point, so the question might be based on a false premise. Lavos vaporized him but after the Ocean Palace Incident the pendant was clinging to Marle and the party. Apparently it was just in the party's Bag of Holding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding) along with all the other regular and key items.
-
Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?
Maybe, but the implication is that Crono didn't necessarily have the pendant at that point, so the question might be based on a false premise. Lavos vaporized him but after the Ocean Palace Incident the pendant was clinging to Marle and the party. Apparently it was just in the party's Bag of Holding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding) along with all the other regular and key items.
The game script reads:
ELDER: Oh, this must be yours.
Marle: My... pendant.
The one Crono held for me.
Lucca: Marle's pendant...
...the one that Crono kept for her.
Robo: The pendant from
Crono's pocket.
It's Marle's, right?
Frog: 'Tis the pendant Crono
kept.
Ayla: Look!
Pendant that Crono had!
ELDER: Young lady, I found it on your
shoulder, almost as if it were
guarding you.
ELDER: It was at your side, like a
guardian...
And, after refreshing my memory, I withdraw my conclusion that the pendants exchange in the first place. This is a quote from the events on Death Peak, right before the portal opens:
[Party]
The pendant's reacting!
It, it shattered!!
That means the party recieves the pendant, of which Crono was holding on to, when they rescued him.
-
Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)?
Apocalypse = end of the Planet
Mother Brain = building a new order of steel on the Planet
Indeed for that she(it?) had to get rid of humans, which was Geno(ci)Dome's purpose.
Mother Brain never wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawns, I don't know why you take that as canon... what she said--
Lavos's children WILL LIKELY return to
space soon.
Seeking new PREY, new planets......
This planet WILL recoVER.
If only humans weren't here......
And the new world of we robots WILL be
constructed.
A country of iron...... a utopia with neither
hatred nor sorrow.
We are the new "species" that WILL take the
place of humans.
.
Denotes that
a) She wanted Lavos's spawns to leave the planet, like they were a threat.
b) She apparently wasn't worried about Lavos, maybe because Lavos had already "finished the work", but the spawns were young and hungry. There IS a reason why she mentioned the spawns and not Lavos itself, but we don't know it. I don't think it's just random rambling from the script writer.
c) It wanted to create a new civilization for the world to continue, only without humans.
-
We also know, regardless of intelligence or intent, that the Mother Brain was INSANE, though...
For all we know Lavos could let the planet recover and then just repeat the process and create offspring later on as well...
-
I think I must be missing a point you're trying to make, Jerky.
First, you'll note that the game script only says that the Crono held the pendant for Marle. When did this occur? Well, we know it happened when they first met and after the telepod incident. Those game quotes would still be accurate statements, then, even if Crono gave it back after Marle returned from the middle ages and he didn't have it when he died.
This doesn't preclude the possibility that Crono still had it, but it doesn't necessitate it either. In short, those quotes you provide prove nothing that was debated; rather, they only show that at one time Crono indeed had Marle's pendant.
If we look at the matter from a writer's perspective, it is actually rather important at that point for the party to identify which pendant it was. Marle's pendant was the exact same as Schala's, at that point, so by identifying the pendant as the one Crono had makes it clear that the pendant is Marle's and not Schala's. If the characters had just said "the Pendant" or "Marle's pendant," it wouldn't have actually been clear whose pendant it really was.
It would seem that the problem with Crono having the pendant when he died was, well, he vaporized. Everything else he had was lost (though the pendant is special enough it might have avoided this).
Even assuming he did have the pendant, consider the following chain of events: it survives his vaporization, Marle and Menagerie "find" it (or it finds them), they travel in time, get the Time Egg, climb Death Peak, they travel back to Crono's death with time frozen, they save Crono, travel back to the future and... they now have two pendants. Since time was frozen, the timeline had no chance to be replaced, the extra pendant had no chance to be shunted to the DBT (as per Time Bastard), and the extra pendant traveled through time so it now has Time Traveler Immunity (specifically, the "new timeline" pendant gains this, while the "old timeline" pendant already had it and would have gained it again in the same instance of time travel anywho) and can't be shunted to the DBT (since TTI is protecting its appearance). Matter has essentially been created, Crono and Co apparently ignore the extra pendant, the universe implodes, and fin.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding Time Bastard or TTI.
However, you do bring up a very interesting bit of information regarding the pendant. It had to activate the Time Egg, it seems… sort of like how Masa and Mune had to activate the Time Egg in CC to save Kid. I think that deserves an update in the Pendant and the Telepod article.
Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)?
Apocalypse = end of the Planet
Mother Brain = building a new order of steel on the Planet
Indeed for that she(it?) had to get rid of humans, which was Geno(ci)Dome's purpose.
I'm not sure if I am following you (or if you are even following yourself). It looks like you are saying the Mother brain is working to overcome the apocalypse because she wants to save the planet so an Age of Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Steel) can begin. For this to happen, she needs to wipe out humans (hence, Geno Dome). Is that what you are trying to say?
If so... wha?
The apocalypse is why humans are dying out. Mother Brain wants humans dead, therefore she'd see the apocalypse as a good thing, and therefore wouldn't be working to overcome it at all (because, now, the humans are dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoi1MSGu64)). Remember, the apocalypse doesn't mean the end of the planet. It means the end of human civilization and it marks the start of the end for the Entity, but while the Entity is the Planet, the planet wont go all Alderaan (http://) on us once the Entity is dead. The planet will still exist, robots can still thrive there, but life (at least, natural life) couldn't.
It looks like you are making your point by contradicting yourself. Thus, I am confused.
Mother Brain never wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawns, I don't know why you take that as canon...
You might notice I specifically said that MB wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawn in the North American Translation, which comes from this:
Lavos's children will one day have to
leave to seek new planets, and prey.
This world COULD sustain them...if
humans were not around...
Mostly the interpretation that Mother Brain wants to protect the Lavos spawn is from juxtapositioning. Lavos' children will leave, but they don't have to if humans weren't around, she wants to kill all humans (possibly by using poisonous gasses to poison their asses).
However, I also followed that up with a comment regarding the retranslation (as the NA indication that she wants to protect Lavos' spawn appears to be a Wooleyism). You already quoted from the retranslation, so I wont do so myself. But you might notice that she mentions Lavos' children only in passing and even at that she's guessing at what they'll do. Barely a footnote in her entire speech.
However, to note, "return" is a curious word to use there. Lavos' children had never been in space before, or so it is largely assumed (since it spawned on earth), so how can they "return" to someplace they've never been to before?
Denotes that
a) She wanted Lavos's spawns to leave the planet, like they were a threat.
b) She apparently wasn't worried about Lavos, maybe because Lavos had already "finished the work", but the spawns were young and hungry. There IS a reason why she mentioned the spawns and not Lavos itself, but we don't know it. I don't think it's just random rambling from the script writer.
c) It wanted to create a new civilization for the world to continue, only without humans.
Nope, that denotes that
a) She thought Lavos's spawn would leave the planet (she didn't know, she was guessing, estimating, predicting).
b) She doesn't address Lavos and barely addresses his spawn, and only then in stating that they'll probably be leaving. Thus the implication is that Lavos itself wont "LIKELY return to space soon. Seeking new PREY, new planets..." As Lavos isn't included in the action of the sentence, he can't be included in the subject of the sentence.
As for c), yup, she wanted the humans dead and a utopia of metal.
However, it is curious that "the planet will recover" and "if only humans weren't here" is separated by a period, not a comma. Therefore, human continued existence is not actually preventing the planet from recovering (as is sometimes interpreted). Rather, we must find a different "then" to that If/Then statement. Regardless, the sentence construction indicates that the planet will recover regardless. Mother Brain apparently isn't terribly concerned with that either.
-
Perhaps because the spawn would also contain (largely?) Lavos DNA it sees it as Lavos returning to space?
Also, about the Pendant...if we take TOIE into account we see the Pendant seemingly rise from around Crono's neck, so it probably slipped off right there when they replace Crono w/the clone...
-
Sorry, I'm lost in the acronyms... what does TOIE stand for?
-
I don't know what it stands for, but isn't it typically used to refer to the anime sequences in the Play Station version?
-
Yes, TOIE is an animation company...they usually deal w/taking over stuff Akira Toriyama doesn't do personally...basically they're like his underlings...and thus not as good... :P
But anyways, I was talking about the anime sequence of Crono's Sacrifice...
-
That would be TOEI Animation :p
And I was never sure what that little glitter was supposed to be...
First I thought it was the Time Egg, but no, that shattered before.
Then I thought it was the pendant, but no, you can see it remains in the Ocean Palace with Schala afterwards.
Then I thought it was Crono's soul of some sort o.O.
Then I said, nah, it should be some sort of temporal distortion thingy since it's near to Lavos.
So, I finally figured out it was just the magical sparkly fairy of time. Maybe not...
-
Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I've only seen the anime sequences on Youtube, but I must have missed that one. Is there a listing somewhere of all the different cut scenes (I didn't find such in the encyclopedia, Wikipedia, rpgamer, etc)?
If the pendant left Crono itself, then that would make the most sense (and it would help support the theory that the pendant is its own acting agent).
-
The PSX video doesn't give much more detail on the sparkle, it makes it remain as a... sparkle.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TYiqcNJ6NVg
Now, remember the scene:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=snZM2FE5pjo
The sparkle goes back to the palace along with Schala, Marle, Magus, and the others.
1) Schala uses the last of her pendant's power to teleport you out.
2) The sparkle remains at the Ocean Palace.
If it's the pendant, it REALLY is sentinent in order to teleport out of the Ocean Palace and unto Marle at last village. If Schala's pendant charge ran off at teleporting you out, it's not very unlikely that the other pendant can just teleport ITSELF too, and Marle and the others do seem surprised to find the pendant on them. Not too weird, even the freaking Epoch is sentinent, following you to the last village.
They could have just used the pendant sprite in-game like they do when you open the doors, but maybe the sprite was too bulky and not dramatic... but they could have represented it better in the PSX video <.<... stupid TOEI...
-
1. Multiple people in the topic complained about Janus predicted (felt the Black Wind around Crono or the party) a death, but not being able to predict the Ocean Palace disaster. This is completely off. Janus and Schala were sick worried about feeling the Black Wind, and so Schala wanted to avoid at all costs to summon Lavos.
Indeed. Both Schala and Janus were worried sick about what was about to go down 'down' at the Ocean Palace. Now, they do happen to actually mention the Black Wind in that scene... coincidence? I think not.
2. Belthasar's prophetic abilities are out of record, it's something much greater than the Black Wind. While the Black Wind seems to give me a reading of "bad energy" or "death chill" or "bad presentiment", Belthasar's prophecy is exact. By Chrono Cross Belthasar called himself the Prophet of Time, we never saw anyone else call him that before. I think speculation is great but it really could be anything: the Nu, contact with the Planet, contact with Lavos, the Black Wind, or any mixture or relation of any.
Yeah, it's true, Belthasar does indeed posses some kind of 'super' ability to be able to predict with absolute certainty every single event that was 'fated' to transpire in order for Serge to be able to free Schala. I mean, the Neo-Epoch and FATE are both excellent tools for carrying out such a project... but, would that have helped him predict the timing of Starky's crashing into the El Nido Triangle, Norris' sudden appearance at the exact precise moment in which Kid needed the Hydra Humour to avoid death, etc., etc.?
3. Lavos reigns from IN the planet, that's all that is really said. "Atop Death Peak" is Woosley's invention. Lavos could nest inside the planet NOWHERE near Death Peak. But probably close, since the Black Omen is pretty close to Death Peak in 2300 AD, and his spawns are in Death Peak, after all.
Actually, if you had been paying attention, what Woolsay said in his translation was that Lavos was indeed reigning from atop Death Peak, at the moment at which he decided to erupt from the planet; as in, in 1999 AD, and not at all at the time of despair in which the world was at during 2300 AD. There are 301 years in between those two stated 'quotes', for which some people, apparently, don't find it that it should make that much of a difference.
4. Now, here's what you're forgetting, Mother Brain is the one who talks about Lavos leaving the planet:
I don't know if I would go as far as saying that the she actually mentions that he left the planet. Although it is extremely odd that she would neglect to mention him at all, seeing as how she's all worked up about its 'offspring' interfering with her actual plans for the future of the planet. One would think, if Lavos was still around, that he would've been at the very least considered as a potential 'nuisance' to at least be mentioned by her in the first place.
Yup, she's talking about Lavos children only, as if not minding Lavos at all, as if Lavos had already left the Planet. So:
Yeah, pretty much... I would think. Why else would she neglect to mention him? Either that, or he did, in fact, divided itself (like a virus) into three separate organisms.
a) Either Belthasar didn't knew/was delirating/didn't care/didn't have time to check if Lavos had already left the Planet when you can first talk to him, or when he was writing his shiny notes that declared that Lavos nests IN the Planet.
b) Lavos left the Planet in 2300 AD somewhere during the game (anytime since when you leave 2300 AD till when you visit Mother Brain), this would be possible with no crater or other evidence if he came out from the ground under the sea, and not on a continent. So, Lavos sufraced, went WHEEE I R A ROCKET, and its spawns will LIIIIIIIIKEEELYY do the same.
a) Doesn't matter. The point is that the game doesn't give us enough information to even begin guess at which point (there are 301 years inbetween) he would've left the planet. The game, however, does certainly heavily imply it.
b) That would be my interpretation, as well. As he does actually mention that he was resarching Lavos at some point. He probably stuck around until he knew for a fact, that his little 'baby' spawns would be appropiately taken care of (whatever that implies). As for the crater, I don't think that should even be considered an issue; since we did actually see where he would 'erupt' in the Lavos Day video in Arris Dome, didn't we? In any case, that supposedly always happens then (in 1999 AD) and not at all during 2300.
Anyway, as for some of the other points raised, namely concerning the pendant:
Aren't we forgetting that we do actually get to see what it looks like in the opening FMV? If it was actually meant to be that pendant, wouldn't it look the same there in that other FMV?
I think it's actually suppsed to be his soul or something. As in: Janus' prophecy is actually being fulfilled right then and there, and there was absolutely nothing at all that anyone could've ever done to prevent it from happening.
That's what I get from that cutsecene. Anyway, I highly doubt that was supposed to represent the 'pendant', for any number of reasons:
1) Aren't all items supposed to be 'hold' at inside the party's Item Bag, where all their other items are supposedly held?
2) Why would Crono be holding something that isn't even his, in the first place? Because we never see him returning it to Marle? Phfff... please.
As far as the Pocket Dimension theory is concerned.... I think that it has been heavily implied many times now that it is, in fact, a flawed theory; and that it was under revision at the moment or something.
-
I'm not gonna refute that big argument there, but here are some thoughts I had.
"Lavos reigns atop death peak" could refer to the Lavos spawn, as, they could also be considered "Lavos"
How do we know there are only 3 or 4 lavoids, there could theoretically be one for every one of those fire jets lavos spews in the 1999 clip... My point is, Lavos could have been done degesting in 1999 and decided to leave, bursting from the ground launching little lavos-missiles (each of which presumably to wander around and grow until its big enough to make space jump) and leaves the planet.
Now, wouldn't that paint a portrait of a parasite, leaving hundreds of its own spawn in its wake?
Again, this is just a thought I had.
-
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
-
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
Well there are the theories that Lavos actually IS Death Peak. Like underneath the snow and ice, Lavos rests. See I think it could be a viable explanation, judging by where on the continent he emerges in 1999, and by that amount of time with the cold, ruined atmosphere, tons of ash and dust could have settled on its shell.
-
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
Well there are the theories that Lavos actually IS Death Peak. Like underneath the snow and ice, Lavos rests. See I think it could be a viable explanation, judging by where on the continent he emerges in 1999, and by that amount of time with the cold, ruined atmosphere, tons of ash and dust could have settled on its shell.
Wow....now, wouldn't that be a mind boggle? Are there any theories on this site that has that? I know I've read a huge majority of them a while ago. Haven't checked in lately.
-
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
Well there are the theories that Lavos actually IS Death Peak. Like underneath the snow and ice, Lavos rests. See I think it could be a viable explanation, judging by where on the continent he emerges in 1999, and by that amount of time with the cold, ruined atmosphere, tons of ash and dust could have settled on its shell.
Wow....now, wouldn't that be a mind boggle? Are there any theories on this site that has that? I know I've read a huge majority of them a while ago. Haven't checked in lately.
Well, that's my personal belief, but I believe it originated in the Death Peak article in the Encyclopedia. I think they could have done more with that area. In fact, if Sony would have kept its deal with Nintendo to make the Playstation, I think that this game could have been fleshed out a LOT more. Like CE, but for the initial game.
-
I've actually never heard the rumor about Death Peak existing around and on top of Lavos. Most interesting... I like it.
-
Yeah, it's true, Belthasar does indeed posses some kind of 'super' ability to be able to predict with absolute certainty every single event that was 'fated' to transpire in order for Serge to be able to free Schala. I mean, the Neo-Epoch and FATE are both excellent tools for carrying out such a project... but, would that have helped him predict the timing of Starky's crashing into the El Nido Triangle, Norris' sudden appearance at the exact precise moment in which Kid needed the Hydra Humour to avoid death, etc., etc.?
Eh... suddendly reading that I had a moment of awakening at 4 am <_< very probably someone has already said this, or maybe it's so terribly obvious no one said it, but... has anyone considered that Belthasar is no more of a prophet than Magus was on Zeal?...
That's right. Belthasar had the Neo-Epoch. He could had been jumping in time over the eras studying even the smallest gossips of El Nido. After knowing that, it doesn't take much of a genius to predict things like the Dragon God stealing the Frozen Flame.
Same for Kid. Did Belthasar really orchestrated the creation of Kid and so on... or did he just watched in time how Schala created Kid to try to save Serge, and he just altered things after that at his convenience?
In short, Belthasar could just see things happen beforetime. He didn't need to predict a thing. During Chrono Cross itself he could had been time-jumping to "predict" future events. We do know that Belthasar at least used it in the end.
Actually, if you had been paying attention, what Woolsay said in his translation was that Lavos was indeed reigning from atop Death Peak, at the moment at which he decided to erupt from the planet; as in, in 1999 AD...
Uh, wait. The line comes from Belthasar's notes to the party... Belthasar arrived to the post-apocalypse world, long after Lavos had awakened... how does the line refer to Lavos reigning in 1999? I don't thing there's even a Death Peak in 1999...
(About the pendant) Aren't we forgetting that we do actually get to see what it looks like in the opening FMV? If it was actually meant to be that pendant, wouldn't it look the same there in that other FMV?
Yep, that was my confusion... but believe me, TOEI can seriously ruin things... not to mention it was already too ambiguous in the SNES version, as they also had a pendant sprite, but showed a sparkle similar to a Tab instead.
I also had the idea of it being Crono's soul. But on the other side, the evidence that supports the sparkle being the pendant, is that Marle (or current party member) looks surprised to see the pendant on them, as if (yeah as if, as if) Crono had it.
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
Ah... the Queen either says "The Mighty Lavos has already consumed this world's life energy" or "This planet has been completely devoured by the god Lavos"...
Which is Sorta what Satoh said, seems Lavos had satisfied himself with the Planet and just left his offsprings. If he left or not was not implied by the Queen.
-
"Lavos reigns atop death peak" could refer to the Lavos spawn, as, they could also be considered "Lavos"
How do we know there are only 3 or 4 lavoids, there could theoretically be one for every one of those fire jets lavos spews in the 1999 clip... My point is, Lavos could have been done degesting in 1999 and decided to leave, bursting from the ground launching little lavos-missiles (each of which presumably to wander around and grow until its big enough to make space jump) and leaves the planet.
Now, wouldn't that paint a portrait of a parasite, leaving hundreds of its own spawn in its wake?
Indeed. The point of the matter seems to solely rely on the fact that we have no idea whatsoever, how in hell did Lavos exactly 'created' his little mini-me's. There is however, in-game evidence that they are in fact just that: a parasites' spawn.
However, it is not entirely conclusive, I would say. And yes, there could be more than just 3 o 4 (if you count the one inside the Black Omen as a legit one). That would actually seem to be the case if they are indeed just mulitple replicas of the original 'version' of this so called 'planet parasite'. However, if they are instead some kind of offspring... I wouldn't think for there to actually be more.
Well there are the theories that Lavos actually IS Death Peak. Like underneath the snow and ice, Lavos rests. See I think it could be a viable explanation, judging by where on the continent he emerges in 1999, and by that amount of time with the cold, ruined atmosphere, tons of ash and dust could have settled on its shell.
I don't think so. Not according to any evidence the game provides us. Lavos emerges on the northern Zenan continent (according to the visual recording of the 'Day of Lavos' found at Arris Dome). Also, the game's sprites by mere comparison, are starkly different in size to even consider this as viable theory at all...
Well, for what my thought's worth, I don't think anybody would deny that Lavos is/was a parasite. Though you do have to wonder about whether it left the planet by 2300 AD or not. I can't remember exactly, but does Queen Zeal say anything about it to imply whether he's left or not in the Black Omen?
Well, I don't think it's a well established fact per se... yet. I think most of everyone's problem with doing that, is the fact that Belthasar was alleged to not be in complete use of his mind, by that point in the story. However, this is only said once in the entire game, and it was said by someone who would have every reason in the world to be jealous of the actual work that he was doing (the 'Wings of Time'), by means of it breaching the one field of study that was supposed to be his master of subjects. Yes, that's right (you guessed it), it is said by Gaspar at the End of Time.
Belthasar himself, however, does happen to mention the mere possibility of it happening in one of his letters. Which is were all this confusion about Lavos seems to be stemming from. Do keep in mind, that he did managed to get right every single little detail about Lavos' activities during his entire stay on the host planet of the story. If we are to take his word for it (which I personally don't see any reason not to do), than Lavos is indeed nothing more than a parasitic temporal entity with an appetite for genetic coding of the miscellaneous life-forms it can find.