Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: kazmaka on June 30, 2006, 01:12:56 pm
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Alas you all could of said this already, but its so hard to find what your looking for with the search engine.. so!
Playing CT, and reading everything on Time Error and Lavos's pocket dimension and whatnot, i got confused!
In the ocean palace disaster, Lavos seems fully matured, at a state like when you defeat it, but did Lavos not come to earth as an infant, or Lavos Spawn, correct me if im wrong there because that will probably put all this to rest.
If Lavos's pocket dimension runs on a timeline parrallel to the planets, then surely there must be a timeline for the planet for every second or millisecond (or something of the like) that Lavos is sucking out the planets enegy's.
For example when lavos first arrives on the Earth surely Zeal will not of noticed the large powers of Lavos and it would not have said large powers, and as such would never bother making the mammon machine and the entire Ocean Palace scenario would of been averted, as would the apocolypse, hell the planet would likely be completely diferent.
When Lavos gets enough power for the Zealians to realise, they start up with the mammon machine and ocean palace scenario, although depending on how much power Lavos actaully has at this stage it may not be able to defeat the Zealians, though this seems incredibly unlikely as it would definetly of stopped the Zealians stealing his power or he would of never got to the stage you see him in playing CT (Heh, just realised i keep swapping between it and he when refering to Lavos, apologies).
And one final sidenote, after Crono and crew defeat Lavos, and Belthesar does all his work in time travel and Chronopolis, etc. Why doesnt he try going back in time to when Lavos was landing, as he presumably was in 'Planet Time' during this, and try stopping Lavos from landing or burrowing, i admit it may be hard.. But surely he could time travel far to the future or something and get the technology required for this. If they did so, would it not completely avert the entire events of CT, CC, and RD.
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Lavos was an adult when he landed, for one. O.o
If Lavos's pocket dimension runs on a timeline parrallel to the planets, then surely there must be a timeline for the planet for every second or millisecond (or something of the like) that Lavos is sucking out the planets enegy's.
For example when lavos first arrives on the Earth surely Zeal will not of noticed the large powers of Lavos and it would not have said large powers, and as such would never bother making the mammon machine and the entire Ocean Palace scenario would of been averted, as would the apocolypse, hell the planet would likely be completely diferent.
When Lavos gets enough power for the Zealians to realise, they start up with the mammon machine and ocean palace scenario, although depending on how much power Lavos actaully has at this stage it may not be able to defeat the Zealians, though this seems incredibly unlikely as it would definetly of stopped the Zealians stealing his power or he would of never got to the stage you see him in playing CT (Heh, just realised i keep swapping between it and he when refering to Lavos, apologies).
This is all babble. Can you rephrase it please? >.<
And one final sidenote, after Crono and crew defeat Lavos, and Belthesar does all his work in time travel and Chronopolis, etc. Why doesnt he try going back in time to when Lavos was landing, as he presumably was in 'Planet Time' during this, and try stopping Lavos from landing or burrowing, i admit it may be hard.. But surely he could time travel far to the future or something and get the technology required for this. If they did so, would it not completely avert the entire events of CT, CC, and RD.
Because of two things. One, Time Error. Even if Lavos was destroyed before he landed on Earth, he would still rise at 1999 AD and at the Ocean Palace Incident. And Two, because of Lavos never lands, then there'd be no human race anymore. Not to mention that you gotta wonder how in the hell you're gonna stop Lavos from landing. A giant baseball mitt?
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Lavos was an adult when he landed, for one. O.o
If Lavos's pocket dimension runs on a timeline parrallel to the planets, then surely there must be a timeline for the planet for every second or millisecond (or something of the like) that Lavos is sucking out the planets enegy's.
For example when lavos first arrives on the Earth surely Zeal will not of noticed the large powers of Lavos and it would not have said large powers, and as such would never bother making the mammon machine and the entire Ocean Palace scenario would of been averted, as would the apocolypse, hell the planet would likely be completely diferent.
When Lavos gets enough power for the Zealians to realise, they start up with the mammon machine and ocean palace scenario, although depending on how much power Lavos actaully has at this stage it may not be able to defeat the Zealians, though this seems incredibly unlikely as it would definetly of stopped the Zealians stealing his power or he would of never got to the stage you see him in playing CT (Heh, just realised i keep swapping between it and he when refering to Lavos, apologies).
This is all babble. Can you rephrase it please? >.<
Hmmm, i guess i can try... What happens on the planet when Lavos is still in his infant stage, when he hasnt absorbed much of the planets power ? We only ever see him mature.
Are there timelines for every time something even slightly diferent would happen due to the planet loosing some enegy?
Think thats the jist of it.
And one final sidenote, after Crono and crew defeat Lavos, and Belthesar does all his work in time travel and Chronopolis, etc. Why doesnt he try going back in time to when Lavos was landing, as he presumably was in 'Planet Time' during this, and try stopping Lavos from landing or burrowing, i admit it may be hard.. But surely he could time travel far to the future or something and get the technology required for this. If they did so, would it not completely avert the entire events of CT, CC, and RD.
Because of two things. One, Time Error. Even if Lavos was destroyed before he landed on Earth, he would still rise at 1999 AD and at the Ocean Palace Incident. And Two, because of Lavos never lands, then there'd be no human race anymore. Not to mention that you gotta wonder how in the hell you're gonna stop Lavos from landing. A giant baseball mitt?
Giant baseball mitt, actually thats what i had in mine 8). And good point on the Time Error, that was kind of a spur of the moment thing.
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Hmmm, i guess i can try... What happens on the planet when Lavos is still in his infant stage, when he hasnt absorbed much of the planets power ? We only ever see him mature.
Are there timelines for every time something even slightly diferent would happen due to the planet loosing some enegy?
Think thats the jist of it.
No, a timeline only comes about when someone travels through time. The planet losing energy has nothing to do with it.
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So what would happen... Does the timeline just keep getting rewritten ? It wouldnt make sense for there to only ever of been a timeline where Lavos was fully mature...
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Only the most "recent" timeline exists. The former versions are discarded in the Darkness Beyond Time.
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Yeah, figures. Would be interesting to know what happened in those timelines.
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What difference do you think there would be compared to the game timeline?
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Well for starters, as i think ive said, the Zealians should never of stopped using the sun stone during a very early timeline, and thus Lavos would never awaken (this all depends on what age Lavos did fall to the planet and if he had much power back then), Zeal should continue to flourish, using the power of the sun stone, unless they ran out of that. If Lavos did never awaken then the Ice Age at least wouldnt of stopped for a while after that. There would of been no apocalpyse because Lavos would still be abosrbing DNA and Energy. I doubt humanity would even learn of Lavos's existence, or if they did in the far future, what would they of done about it ?
Though in theory the only timeline that would ever get a chance to exist for any time would be the last one where Lavos 'Reigns atop Death Peak' as he has stopped all his actions, and no future changes should happen.
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It wouldn't matter anyway. Everything you're describing is in a single timeline that's only replaced when Crono and co. start Time Traveling.
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Yes.. Thats only 1 possible timeline, there could be many other possibilities that i cant really be bothered to go into details of and think about. And thats not what happens before Crono and co. start Time Traveling.. The 'Lavos Timeline' is, what i described is clearly diferent.
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But "possibilities" won't matter either. -_- You need to reread a few articles clearly.
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I think you're the one who's missing the point. It's not a matter of possibilities, those timelines clearly... exist...ed. It's just that the game is set in the latest timeline, the one which corresponds to the pocket dimension's timeline in which Lavos is fully grown up and the Planet triggers Crono's adventure.
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Thanks Chrono'99, that is my point exactly. Well, one person agree'ing with me is all I came here for, thanks for your time.
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Well, all those other timelines led to the Apocalypse anyway, so I don't think we're missing a whole lot.
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The other timelines would not of led to apocalypse, at least not a Lavos intervened apocalypse like the CT timeline does, as Lavos would not pop out of his Pocket Dimension, this is proved by the fact CT exists.
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Um....yes he would...? O_o
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But hes only an infant.. He stays in there for .. well i dont know how long, until hes got all the energy and DNA or whatever that he wants, then he pops out in the CT timeline to destroy the world, and lay his eggs.
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He would stay in his PD so the future would go on normally, without Apocalypse. Belthasar wouldn't be there though, so it wouldn't exactly be like the future in CC.
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Yeah good point... Without belthesar they would remain quite unintelligent...
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No see, Lavos was an adult when he landed. As infants, they stay on the planet they're born on until adulthood, then inseminate another planet until they enter gestation.
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No see, Lavos was an adult when he landed. As infants, they stay on the planet they're born on until adulthood, then inseminate another planet until they enter gestation.
Then why did he have the need to absorb the planets energy ? I see no logical explanation for this being true...
Edit : And if you say he needed the energy because he was feeling pekish after his long trip, everything aformentioned would still apply as Lavos would be weak after using so much energy the Zealians would still not try absorbing his entire null energy.
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How about collecting DNA and Energy? DNA for Evolution and energy for laying eggs(+the new collected DNA). Becoming better and reproduce is logical for me.
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How about collecting DNA and Energy? DNA for Evolution and energy for laying eggs(+the new collected DNA). Becoming better and reproduce is logical for me.
How much energy do you need just to lay a few eggs ? And since when did Lavos "Lay eggs". The fact is we dont really know much about the life cycle of a Lavos... And still, the mere fact he needs to collect Energy points to the conclusion that Lavos had dried up his reserves, so still the Zealians would not bother using his energy, the sun stone would of been just as ample an energy source.
Also the point that absorbing the energy of the planet weakens the planet, we dont know what effects this may of had, the planet may of had more continents, more life forms, radically diferent environment, but after loosing so much energy it lost this. We are seeing the planet as a strange entity here with numerous powers, who know what it could of been like at its full potential.
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Actually, it's more hinting towards the fact that the sunstone already ran out, or was on it's last end. Heck, in 2300AD, the sunstone is a moonstone, and with Zeal's ever need for magic and their usage rate, if the sunstone can deteriorate in 14,300 years without anyone using it, imagine how fast it'd deteriorate from the Zealian's power hungry usage.
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Actually, it's more hinting towards the fact that the sunstone already ran out, or was on it's last end. Heck, in 2300AD, the sunstone is a moonstone, and with Zeal's ever need for magic and their usage rate, if the sunstone can deteriorate in 14,300 years without anyone using it, imagine how fast it'd deteriorate from the Zealian's power hungry usage.
I havent actaully played CT in a while, but i dont recall any specific mention that use of the sunstone like they were was actaully causing it to run out, and we dont know how long and extensively they were using it beforehand, or what it was really doing underground in the Sun Palace. For all we know being underground away from any sunlight causes it to loose its power, whereas if they had kept using it, and kept it in a nice sunny spot, it may never of waned away, as long as Melchior never got his hands on it to make sun shades.
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Additionally, Melchior didn't destroy the Sun Stone to make his sun shades. The Sun Stone still exists at the end of the game, Taban even strikes a hammer on it (without apparent damage) to launch fireworks during the Moonlight Parade.
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Then why did he have the need to absorb the planets energy ? I see no logical explanation for this being true...
Edit : And if you say he needed the energy because he was feeling pekish after his long trip, everything aformentioned would still apply as Lavos would be weak after using so much energy the Zealians would still not try absorbing his entire null energy.
Because he entered the planet to absorb his energy so he could enter Gestation. READ what I said. Don't just glance with both your eyes closed.
Also the point that absorbing the energy of the planet weakens the planet, we dont know what effects this may of had, the planet may of had more continents, more life forms, radically diferent environment, but after loosing so much energy it lost this. We are seeing the planet as a strange entity here with numerous powers, who know what it could of been like at its full potential.
That'd be absorbing lifeforms and land mass, not energy. The energy Lavos was absorbing was probably geothermal energy or like, mystical spirit energy from the planet or something, like the Lifestream.
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Also the point that absorbing the energy of the planet weakens the planet, we dont know what effects this may of had, the planet may of had more continents, more life forms, radically diferent environment, but after loosing so much energy it lost this. We are seeing the planet as a strange entity here with numerous powers, who know what it could of been like at its full potential.
That'd be absorbing lifeforms and land mass, not energy. The energy Lavos was absorbing was probably geothermal energy or like, mystical spirit energy from the planet or something, like the Lifestream.
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My point WAS that the energy was probably something similiar to the Lifestream. The lifestream gives life to everything, without the lifestream, there would be nothing on the planet, well not exactly, but there would be no life. So if Lavos was absorbing the Lifestream (or this planets equivalant) there would be no life on the planet, eventaully, the planet itself would die, there probably would be no planet left at all if Lavos kept absorbing the energy.
Your other point didnt actaully make enough sense for me to reply, and its kinda odd how we call Lavos a he opposed to a she.
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Well yea, but even without lifestream, continents and species wouldn't just dissapear.
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Well yea, but even without lifestream, continents and species wouldn't just dissapear.
How would species not disapear, they would go extinct on one timeline due to there being no 'Lifestream' left to give 'Life' to the species. And in some whacky beliefs what i've said about continents is also true, without energy the planet cannot keep itself together, in a sense.
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They would die, but they wouldn't dissapear. There's a subtle difference. As for continents, without energy, the planet won't move, not come apart. Falling apart requires a tremendous amount of kinetic force.
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In FF7, once the planet lost the lifestream, it crumbled up and floated away.
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It is not possible that a planet crumble to oblivion without the presence of gravity. It might be barren but it will not crumble. Consider the moon for example, it has no lifestream but still in one piece. Remember that the entire planet holds together because of gravity. If I apply your theory to the moon which has no lifestream it would had crumbled eons ago. Besides that only applies only to FF7 that the entire planet crumbles because of no lifestream.
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There isn't even a "Lifestream" In Chrono Trigger/Cross
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In FF7, once the planet lost the lifestream, it crumbled up and floated away.
Good point, except this is Chrono Trigger. DEE DEE DEE!
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In FF7, once the planet lost the lifestream, it crumbled up and floated away.
Good point, except this is Chrono Trigger. DEE DEE DEE!
Duh, thats why I didn't relate it to CT, since i'm not the one who even started relation a lifestream and encorporating it into CT.
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Here's my theory. Lavos grows by stealing valuable minerals resources & geo-thermal energy. As part of his evolution, he sends a certain drone(Like the frozen Flame) to speed-up evolution while gathering DNA from all creatures that made contact with it & transmit it back the DNA data to Lavos. He couldn't influence evolution directly so he sends something else instead. At least for now, this is my theory.
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In FF7, once the planet lost the lifestream, it crumbled up and floated away.
Good point, except this is Chrono Trigger. DEE DEE DEE!
..... You do remember that you were the one who started the whole lifestream thing anyway.... The CT version would be .. The Life of the 'Entity' as it is agreed that the 'Entity' is the planet, and the 'Entity' is very much alive.
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Duh, thats why I didn't relate it to CT, since i'm not the one who even started relation a lifestream and encorporating it into CT.
Then why waste forum space?
Here's my theory. Lavos grows by stealing valuable minerals resources & geo-thermal energy. As part of his evolution, he sends a certain drone(Like the frozen Flame) to speed-up evolution while gathering DNA from all creatures that made contact with it & transmit it back the DNA data to Lavos. He couldn't influence evolution directly so he sends something else instead. At least for now, this is my theory.
This I can agree with.
..... You do remember that you were the one who started the whole lifestream thing anyway.... The CT version would be .. The Life of the 'Entity' as it is agreed that the 'Entity' is the planet, and the 'Entity' is very much alive.
Yes, but I said that whatever energy Lavos was stealing was like the Lifestream, but not identical to it. It was an analogy for some of the board members who usually don't get what I'm talking about.
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Duh, thats why I didn't relate it to CT, since i'm not the one who even started relation a lifestream and encorporating it into CT.
Then why waste forum space?
Here's my theory. Lavos grows by stealing valuable minerals resources & geo-thermal energy. As part of his evolution, he sends a certain drone(Like the frozen Flame) to speed-up evolution while gathering DNA from all creatures that made contact with it & transmit it back the DNA data to Lavos. He couldn't influence evolution directly so he sends something else instead. At least for now, this is my theory.
This I can agree with.
..... You do remember that you were the one who started the whole lifestream thing anyway.... The CT version would be .. The Life of the 'Entity' as it is agreed that the 'Entity' is the planet, and the 'Entity' is very much alive.
Yes, but I said that whatever energy Lavos was stealing was like the Lifestream, but not identical to it. It was an analogy for some of the board members who usually don't get what I'm talking about.
Due to the fact that the planet was deprive of geo-thermal during the Dark Ages, the planet becomes cold & barren. It looks like it the planet was losing lifestream energy in analogy to FF7. I hope this what you meant.
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Um....there's plenty of geothermal energy in 600 AD O_o
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There's lot's geo-thermal energy in the Middle Ages probably because Lavos stores enough nurishment for hibernation(remember that he's inactive for almost 15,000 years.) Besides, he sucks more than enough nurishment for 65 million years.
Since heat returns to Earth, life blooms once again. And because of it, he continues gather more DNA data to evolve futher while hibernating.
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There's lot's geo-thermal energy in the Middle Ages probably because Lavos stores enough nurishment for hibernation(remember that he's inactive for almost 15,000 years.) Besides, he sucks more than enough nurishment for 65 million years.
Since heat returns to Earth, life blooms once again. And because of it, he continues gather more DNA data to evolve futher while hibernating.
Is it just me... Or is everything said there based on incorrect statements ?
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It's correct enough, so don't get in a fuss about it.
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But we have no idea how long Lavos was on the planet for, thats the whole point about the pocket dimension and time error.
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What? No, you missed the whole point of the Pocket Dimension and Time Error. We know how long Lavos was on Earth. We SAW HIM LAND and then we SAW HIM DIE.
The Pocket Dimension and Time Error theories were used to explain how you can kill Lavos's head in the future and it will still be dead in the PAST, and how you can destroy parts of the Black Omen in any time period and they'll still be gone in the past, and so on. They were made to solve the problem of non-linear time demonstrated in CT. It has nothing to do with how long Lavos was on earth. Hell, I can give you an exact figure: 65,013,999 years. There. That's EXACTLY how long he's been on earth.
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But Lavos can time travel, well sort of, he isnt in a particular time, yes he landed in 65,000,000 bc, but it could of been 5 seconds before the CT game, because of the pocket dimension stuff and whatnot.
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The Pocket Dimension wasn't created until he landed though. And it's not that he's time traveling, it's that the Pocket Dimension exists on it's own timeline.
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What kazmaka is pointing out is that we don't really know if one second in the Chrono dimension is the same as one second in Lavos' pocket dimension.
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What kazmaka is pointing out is that we don't really know if one second in the Chrono dimension is the same as one second in Lavos' pocket dimension.
As usual Chrono'99 is hitting the mark on my points, thankyou.
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We already know it's not running off main, or even linear time though. The way it seems to go down, Lavos lands and the Pocket Dimension is created, and Lavos begins eating. One "second" later someone (Zeal) starts stealing his energy, so he comes out and busts some caps. Goes back and continues eating. Right when he gets back, someone tries to summon him, but it's interrupted, so he shrugs it off and continues eating. One "second" later he decides he's full, so he comes up to bust some more asses in the Apocalypse.
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The point of disagreement was on this statement:
Hell, I can give you an exact figure: 65,013,999 years. There. That's EXACTLY how long he's been on earth.
That might be how long his pocket dimension has been connected to Earth, but we don't know if it's equal to how much time Lavos spent inside his pocket dimension.
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I've always figured that time in the Pocket Dimension was perpendicular, so it's a moot poit.