Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Polling => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on May 30, 2008, 12:51:03 am
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If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it? It's a poll from the Chrono Cross hacking team you've seen in action in Kajar Laboratories! Make the wishlist now!
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*Better explain the underlying story using Compendium theory, and in a way that isn't so esoteric and cramped into the last minutes of the game.
*Eliminate all the funny accents.
*Give Zoah some clothes.
All three were kinda tide for me but these three seem to go together well, as in one large hack including them all.
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I would 16-bit it! Oh, and remove all the accents,lol
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I voted for story revisions using Compendium theory, but if the number of playable characters can be reduced to, say, the characters that really had good or important reasons for joining you, that would be an interesting streamlining as well. And if that happened to free up some data for other interesting hacks...
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I would 16-bit it! Oh, and remove all the accents,lol
Reinsert Magus back into the storyline as a major event and not just as a side story, add some scenes of Belthasar working in Chronopolis and playing a larger role on the whole, as well as incorporating Compendium theory into the game.
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Take out the accents except for Kid's...maybe Grobyc's...I forget how he talked in the Japanese version...
Fewer playable characters if you can then actually ADD Character Development to those who aren't.
Other - I think that there should be more UNIQUE dialog when the 2nd party member or whoever pipes up and adds something. I don't think they all have to say the same thing just w/a different accent. It just screamed LAZY PROGRAMMING to me...Maybe just MORE dialog between party members as well.
Turn CC Serge into RD Serge...i.e. give him dialog. He absolutely sucks w/o it. I know it's a cute little throwback to Crono, but he was a HUNDRED times better in RD with a freakin personality.
OR as an alternative...! How about some reactionary 3D model movements? The equivalent of that surprised sprite I always bitch about Crono having over Serge? THAT would help TREMENDOUSLY, I think.
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Less characters, with more development each.
Maybe two/three characters of each element are available per playthrough (Without counting Serge/Lynx)? ie:
White: Serge, Riddel
Black: Lynx, Harle, Grobyc, Guile
Blue: Pierre/Nikki, Fargo
Red: Kid, (Who else was important? I can't remember any other red with plot significance. Then again, there's always Macha :P)
Green: Radius, Glenn/Razzly (Depending on save/leave Kid), Karsh
Yellow: Norris, Viper, Poshul (If for nothing else, just making the opening segment easier; maybe permanently leaves party after Opassa Beach?)
I know I'm likely forgetting some important character or another, but at least it's a basic list of characters. Zoah/Marcy never join the party, but we get Viper/Fargo anyway, so we don't need them. The only concern I can think with the list as a whole is not having any Red characters besides Kid, though I suppose adding Zappa might work.
The biggest "problem" I see is the lack of early-game characters by removing Leena, Mojo, and (Likely) Poshul; that leaves you with Serge and Kid until Termina, and then those two plus your guide for Viper Manor. Then you'd have Serge/Guide/(Glenn/Razzly) until Ft. Dragonia, and then get about ten characters in the span of twenty minutes after becoming Lynx.
I dunno, that's my two cents being written up at seven in the morning, so I imagine there's some glaring error on my part >.>
EDIT: On second thought, Grobyc and Viper could probably be removed without incident; Viper isn't important to the plot after recruiting him (Or past Ft. Dragonia, really), and Grobyc is relevent never. Maybe we could leave Poshul in, then? Hardly a plot-heavy character, but without Viper we need another Yellow, and Poshul offers potential variety for early-game parties.
Also, I forgot Sprigg, which means we'd have four green characters per run, five total. Still, with this list we're looking at about 16-17 characters as opposed to forty-something (44 I beleive, but I don't know if that counts Serge/Lynx as one or two characters), which is a nice start.
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Wow, excellent feedback so far from everyone! I totally forgot to add an option for Serge having a personality -- yes, this is a must!
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I've said this before, but increased difficulty gets my vote. I'm also the only one to vote for that change so far (by that, I mean in the poll itself). Whee! :P
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Less characters in the playable/usable roster. I'm really picky when it comes to character development... Well, to be specific, I just really like seeing a character getting a backstory and some purpose given to their role in a story. Chrono Cross was lacking in these.
I wholeheartedly agree on the Serge personality point. Having played RD before CC, it was pretty weird to see Serge as little more than a walking puppet (I guess that's irony with his role in about 90% of the story). Giving him some personality and lines to express himself would really be an improvement.
OR as an alternative...! How about some reactionary 3D model movements? The equivalent of that surprised sprite I always bitch about Crono having over Serge? THAT would help TREMENDOUSLY, I think.
I like this. While playing, I rarely ever got the impression that characters were even reacting at all to what was happening around them, so I'd love to see some actual emotion.
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OR as an alternative...! How about some reactionary 3D model movements? The equivalent of that surprised sprite I always bitch about Crono having over Serge? THAT would help TREMENDOUSLY, I think.
Ditto I personally would prefer this then adding lines for Serge. Less room to screw up. I personally didn't like the RD Serge as much sure he had character, but is bad character better then little to no character
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i would want an actual "what happens" to serge and kid. or a wedding like in chrono trigger ^-^
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Yes, resolution is an important consideration as well. Should it be happy to counterbalance the doleful tone of Cross, left the same, or be ominous like the ending of Terminator 2? Chrono Trigger PSX ingeniously combined celebration wtih sorrow, juxtaposing the wedding against the invasion.
Let us also enter into a debate on the nature of Serge's character in RD, and what kind of person Serge could/should be in an overhauled Chrono Cross.
On the plus side in my opinion, Serge in RD seemed introspective, but this is a required trait for someone who's narrating an entire adventure. On the negative, IMO, he came off as such a run-of-the-mill, hormone-driven teen; What are Kid's measurements?, my foot! But on balance, Serge is essentially what the player makes of him in RD, because he has a multitude of choices on things to say and do.
There is grand potential for Serge's character in Chrono Cross. He finds out he's dead in another dimension, he's got the universe's fate in his hands, and his dad tried to drown him when he was 10. He's got to react to these things, but as Kebrel points out, there is significant risk of ruining the opportunity to write his character. He has much weighing upon his mind, but if he ends up "emo" like Cloud or Squall, the writing will have failed. Or would it? Discuss.
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Yeah, I strike my suggestion for adding character to him actually now that I think about it...Even if you just try to mold CC Serge from RD Serge, there's just so much more happening to CC Serge that whoever writes him would have to be adding too much to his personality...and that, I think, is taking a bit TOO MUCH out of the hands of Kato...give him a hilarious surprised sprite-like thing like Crono had, maybe a laughing sprite (although I'm not sure if he'd be able to use one in CC...>_>)...I mean, I can imagine a Crono-like, arms & legs outspread, wide-eyed, surprised look for Serge when he reads his own gravestone! It'd be PRICELESS!
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I am not saying its impossible but just difficult, lots of work, and can go wrong. Maybe Cryokinetic or Clovis could do it? They did a good job with Chrono.
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On that note, anyone know of some good Serge-centric fanfics? A talented writer can shine a whole new and unexpected light on a given character. I was absolutely disgusted with Harle until I read apsymbol's Harle fanfic (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,2871.0.html), which turned me into a huge fan of the little clown. If only apsymbol didn't disappear after such a promising first post!
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What if the person playing the game was given response choices. If you use a format similar to the growlanser or start ocean games then relationships with your party members can be affected by how you react to a certain situation. Not sure if that can be done easily with a hack, since you would need new variables, but I think it is something to consider.
If we reduce the number of characters at the same time then we gain some of that speech text back, so we could have the characters in your party respond differently depending on how much they like or dislike you.
Don't like Kid? Then you can ignore her, not save her, be nice to Leena, and get close to her instead of Kid/Schala at the end of the game.
It would also be a way to give the characters more personality. For example, Glenn tries to do what is right. Maybe if you pick up Glenn, but then perform acts that are sly or dishonorable (not sure if there are any, but we could always create some) he then leaves your party because of it. Maybe some characters would only stay with you if you were sly.
Anyway, that might make it more complicated than it needs to be, but I like the idea of allowing players to choose the character they want to be. If you do not really like Kid then why play a game to save her other half? I think more choice would be a great way to expand upon the gaming experience without having to create a lot of new content from scratch (such as maps and locations).
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From what I've seen of the decompressed dialogue files, branching paths shouldn't be too difficult to implement via ambitious hacking. I'm still not sure how the game knows which "path" to take after a branch point, i.e., which fieldscript to load in a given room when more than one exist, but event flags might be involved somehow. Luckily ZeaLitY archived what's known about Chrono Cross event flags somewhere in the forums here -- the subject had been brought up by an investigator at GameFAQs, but the admins there purge the boards every so often, eliminating countless goodies along with the chaff.
The major difficulty associated with branching paths is the sheer amount of work for the writers. We might end up having to gather several writing teams to split up the work, much as Kato did with Radical Dreamers -- I've read that much of the writing was done by people other than Kato. Hopefully there will be no shortage of folks who want to see their writing emblazoned in interactive form, when the time comes. All interested parties must study Compendium theory and the forum debates closely in the meantime.
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If it is event flags then it should not be hard to implement once we know where they are. We can create our own set of flags to check for when a room is loaded and create our own fieldscript text.
It seems like the most difficult task is just deciphering where and how this information is stored and recalled. Once we know changing it should be relatively simple (albeit tedious).
Then again, I am still very new to hacking, so I do not actually have any idea. Perhaps I am just naively optimistic.
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The event flag info is here:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5167.0.html
The Gameshark code for altering the event flags was reported by joseph_sw. There should be a way to figure out where event flags are stored (in RAM?) just by looking at the gameshark code, but I haven't even begun to investigate that sort of thing yet.
EDIT: Oh, maybe it's actually just address 0x800E57A0 in the PSX RAM that does it, i.e., Gameshark codes work directly on specific RAM addresses, so no re-interpreting of the code has to be done unlike with the old Game Genie codes.
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*Give Zoah some clothes.
*Fewer playable characters altogether -- a Final Fantasy VI-size roster can produce just the right balance between variety and character development.
*Make one or more of the following characters playable: Dario, Miguel.
*Better explain the underlying story using Compendium theory, and in a way that isn't so esoteric and cramped into the last minutes of the game.
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xD I liked all the options, but I'd rather stick to my own opinion. *ahem* Chrono Cross is a good game, but if I managed to hack it then I'd change, well, everything!
For one, I'd change the setting of the story. Being good at storyboard plotting, I'll manage to do that with sufficient amount of time, linking it properly to Chrono Trigger/Radical Dreamers with great respect. Although, I wouldn't intend to "revive" some of the dead characters (well, I could revive Magus). I wouldn't really remove the characters already playable in-game, except for a few useless ones, and group them accordingly; say a group of playable characters that are involved with the story greatly and have good personally developments, and another group of playable characters who aren't useful for the story and are just there for fun's sake, except for minor side-quests/stories (I'll give that to all characters) and certain secrets. So the major characters would only be a few.
Next, I'll keep the current stamina battle system with innate, but somehow shorten the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG battle transitions. Well, an active battle would be great too. xD I'd also give Guile a priority, and at a certain point revealing his true identity as (duh!) Magus, where all his old spells and stuff is unlocked. The character will then change his appearance from Guile to CT style Magus. He will be the one to rescue Schalla. And pretty much, I'd say that the so called "Time Devourer" really sucked! =_= Lavos seemed more intimidating than it. SO I'd change EVERYTHING about it, giving it a far more scarier appearance and battle formations than Lavos, including it's spells and skills. FATE also sucked, and I'd do the same with it.
Another thing that would make CT fans cling onto Cross hack. xD Secret playable characters that have some connection with the old CT. Give the characters more background story, and making them interact with other playable characters to give more depth. Give more skills and spells. Enable exploration outside El Nido, including exploring Guardia and Medina, etc. Implement Time Travel. Make Glenn learn about Frog (LOL). The true mystery of Ayla and Leah. Ayla's baby (W00T). Several alternatives resulting in several different timeline effects. Secret bosses and items.
Okay, I think I mentioned too much. But I must say I have a LOT more ideas where THAT little thing came from. XD So you can see, I wanna do everything in my power to (BE A GOD AND) change the game and make it several times interesting driving the gameplay to it's apex. Plus, I hated the way it connected with Chrono Trigger, so yeah.
P.S.: Did I mention I WOULDN'T let Prometheus (Robo) die either?! And someone *secret* appears and fixes him?
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I would remove someof the useless/pointless characters, I would keep Leena
Don't like Kid? Then you can ignore her, not save her, be nice to Leena, and get close to her instead of Kid/Schala at the end of the game.
that would be nice....don't get me wrong I like Kid, but that idea of making a choice between the two seems nice. Serge is still young, there's plenty of time to choose a girl....well trying to save everybody and being a mindless husk controlled by multible forces...seriously I think he need a personlity, I learned I was being used from the start I'd say screw the world! Back to seriousness, I would want the game to make more sense to, half of the time I had no idea what was going on! I felt like I had missed something important, but after playng a few more times I noticed that I hadn't, character devolpment was so abscure at times I felt Luccia (did I get that name right? The scientist lady who was friends with Lucca....my point was made in that description!) could have been way better, I mean she had connetions with a considrable amount of characters, apparently knew some stuff about the first game from Lucca, ext, It feels like they set her up for something then said...."awwww screw it..." then threw in the letter from Lucca and walked away. Add Magus...goes without saying...it felt like he should have been there, If they felt that he would have been overused over everyone else or whatever they could have had it so that he only joins at certain points (they can do it, they did it with Kid and about half the cast when you turn into Lynx!)
I've been rambeing sorry. I felt like some of the game was just thrown together at the last minute...like they where bored and wanted to get it over with quickly or something. This is more like a complain about the game sorry. Um you get the picture
-More lucid story (It never made much sense to me, I got the general idea to some extent)
-Better character devlopment
-Bring Magus back!
-ext.
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All good feedback. If we are worried about Magus/Magil overwhelming the other characters with his sheer awesomeness, we must simply make the other characters more awesome so that they may compete for the gamer's affection.
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More story about all characters. They are so many and you don't know well were some of then came from, like Greco or Leah and many many more. Add like more flashbacks on the story (like in Dario's side-quest). And more side-quest!!
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Exactly! So suppose when we do develop the hack for Chrono, aside from the development team we'll need a debate.
:D Along side Magus, which characters would be playable. (But I suppose, playing with useless characters could also prove to be enjoyable)
:D Turn the game into a dating simulation~ (Lol, not really. xD Just for the several ending's sake, we could give Serge alternatives for his right girl, for fun's sake.)
:D Assign 2 to 3 people to work the story and design character background.
:D 1 or 2 to design "in-detail" plot and subplot, say, secret characters and quests/sidequests?
:D Customized artwork? xD Lol, just random.
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Well, not a dating sim per se, but I like the multiple ending idea. It would give people different game play without having to do a New Game+. It would also add to replay value.
Maybe also add more junctions in the game, where decisions you make affect what people join your party. One thing I did not like about Chrono Cross is you get over 30 characters the first play through, then you have to play through at least two more times (or the equivalent of one more time, if you make liberal use of Continue+) just to get 6 more characters. If the character branching were divided up so that you had to play the game three times to get everyone, but every time you got an equal amount of people, I think I would enjoy playing through the game multiple times more.
I think another option that would be cool is increasing the boss encounters (higher star level) while simultaneously making the enemies more challenging.
Also, the option to start a New Game+ with your items and characters, but being able to reset your level to 1 if you wanted to would also be cool.
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I'd change the game into an isometric turn-based rpg, a la FFT or Makai series. It just seems perfect given the number of playable characters. I had started working on this idea a couple years ago, actually. Also, the battle system in it's current form might actually work out, obviously given certain tweaks.
EDIT: Also, I've always wanted to bring this up, I'd give more insight into Norris' backstory, as it would likely tie to the so-called fall of Guardia.
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All good feedback. If we are worried about Magus/Magil overwhelming the other characters with his sheer awesomeness, we must simply make the other characters more awesome so that they may compete for the gamer's affection.
Ah yes, the Guilty Gear school of character balance. Everyone gets better, some just more so than others.
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Exactly! So suppose when we do develop the hack for Chrono, aside from the development team we'll need a debate.
:D Along side Magus, which characters would be playable. (But I suppose, playing with useless characters could also prove to be enjoyable)
:D Turn the game into a dating simulation~ (Lol, not really. xD Just for the several ending's sake, we could give Serge alternatives for his right girl, for fun's sake.)
:D Assign 2 to 3 people to work the story and design character background.
:D 1 or 2 to design "in-detail" plot and subplot, say, secret characters and quests/sidequests?
:D Customized artwork? xD Lol, just random.
I...I could write Leena's background, I mean we know her background but, I always felt she was kinda missing something. You know a person would still be affected by the loss of there father at a young age even if it happened a while back. I was like "Why is it she wonders what if Serge had never died?" yet seemingly not once mentions her father even though you have to fight him. (I think there should be a way to bring her to that battle...that would be interesting.) What was she more love for Serge as a child then her father! When Serge died daddy died.....I'm so sad about serge, but not daddy....no wait the Another World version! Of course what a twist the Record of Fate made her not think about him at all (well in home world she had Serge to keep her happy.) Imagine her shock when she learns the fact that the record of fate made her barely think of her father's death (I would need to work on why the record of fate would surpress such a thing, but still.)
Hehehehe I'm getting excited for nothing....I mean is anyone going to really going to do this....if so they would most likely trust someone else to work on this kinda stuff...beside I would never be able to play it (I can't get a Playstation Emulator to work on my computer)
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I'm getting excited for nothing....I mean is anyone going to really going to do this....if so they would most likely trust someone else to work on this kinda stuff...
[cue "Time of the Dreamwatch"]
You betCHA this is going to happen. Too many talented fans have already developed resources within the "Putting Magus in Chrono Cross" thread for something major not to take shape. The only thing keeping the Cross hacking effort at bay is the fact that we're just now coming up to speed on the technical knowledge necessary to proceed with a major project.
Once we have the necessary capabilities, we can start a project forum. I have my own outlandish ideas about the storyline for an overhaul of Cross (worry not, V_Translanka, no ninja Marle now :lol:), but naturally the final product will arise from a community effort and I think it would be really interesting if character development arcs for specific protagonists and antogonists were assigned to fan writers who are particularly inspired by those characters.
The schedule I currently have in mind for Cross efforts is as follows:
Now ~ September 1: Hack, hack, hack! Learn everything we can about Cross' internals and develop technical capabilities necessary for a major project.
September 1 ~ the release of Crimson Echoes: Plotwork, progressing from the creation of a skeletal plot outline to a final fleshed-out draft, with any interested Compendiumite welcome to join in the fun.
Interim between the release of Crimson Echoes and the release of Chrono Crisis: Majority of project work, including the formulation of a totally new dialogue script.
Sometime after the release of Chrono Crisis: Project release.
This will ensure that there's always some huge game project happening in the Chrono community for potentially the next five years or so. At some point the project will have to go underground to avoid Square Enix's prying eyes, but on the other hand all technical knowledge of the game we gain will be made public on the Chrono Cross File Structure wiki so that future and concurrent projects may benefit.
On the other hand, to suspect that this project would even be worthy of the great honor of a C&D is mere egotism, but since it's dealing with 3D, the project development plan should take it into consideration.
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Why not ninja Marle...
:lol:
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MUCH Greater involvement from CT characters; specifically, Lucca. I would've loved to see a Boss battle between Serge and Lynx at the burning orphanage, and Lucca could've been a one time party member (Like FuSoYa or Seifer).
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Whoa! Does that mean we can expect Crimson Echoes around September?!?!
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Whoops, sorry for any misunderstanding my timeline may have caused. I mean to say we should expect to devote 3 months to pure hacking, however much time comes between Sept. 1 and Crimson Echoes Day (CE-Day?) for plotwork, and after we've sobered up from the CE celebration, it would be time to start on the bulk of the Cross project.
Now that MagilsugaM did that Ninja Marle sprite, I'm having nostalgic pangs for the "barfly by day, rogue Radical Dreamer operative by night" scenario. Must...resist...urge to turn Marle into a ninja...
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You could always make Ninja Marle a replacement for one of the characters. Maybe depending on what you name the main character it can change parts of the game, like they did with some of the old NES games.
Once the project gets underway were there any plans to add voice over work for the characters, or were you just sticking to improved text dialogue?
I remember reading one theory about Miguel being similar to Chrono. It would definitely be a heartfelt time if "Ninja" Marle was in your party and she had to fight her love in order to prevent the destruction of the Universe. That a far fetched idea not likely to see fruition, but just the idea that soon we'll know enough about the game to do that kind of thing is impressive.
I think everyone had done an awesome job so far and I'll support this no matter where it goes because it is too great of a project to do otherwise.
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Actually Zaulche, your idea is not too far-fetched at all, at least not in my demented, fanon-driven mind. While Miguel = Crono would be stretching things a little too far, who's to say that FATE wouldn't have chosen someone else to guard the Dead Sea's Frozen Flame had certain situations played out just a bit differently? Compendium records surmise that the Frozen Flame spent some time in Castle Guardia's vaults, so there are numerous possibilities...
I'm almost positive voice-acting is out during normal dialogue due to the way the sound engine works (individual sounds stored on the game disc are probably called up one by one by sequencing data). Only way to fit it in would be during movie sequences that would essentially be AVIs converted to .STR format. I know there's a .STR > .AVI converter out there, so I'm hoping the reverse conversion would also be possible. Now that I think of it, we should definitely keep voice acting in consideration, and see if we can implement it if interest is high enough. Damn, things get more significant by the moment!
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Interesting. I had no idea the frozen flame was ever in Guardia Castle. I must have missed that. In that case, switching Miguel out completely with Chrono would be cool. It would have a greater impact on fans and it would make more sense as to why Leena would join you (adventure is in her blood). Maybe he even did it on purpose to keep an eye on Chrono once he fled Gaurdia...
Dang, that probably means we have to all agree on what exactly happened between Guardia and Porre. Or is it going to be a majority wins kind of deal? Did you already have something in mind FaustWolf?
Ah well, perhaps another time. I have to admit though, if we get to the point where we can create new elements battles against some of the CT heroes would be really cool, if not in the story than for a Bend of Time treat (like the Ozzy gang in the original CC).
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I have some vague plot points in mind, but I need to further refine them before bringing them to the table. Everything hinges on hacking capabilities though, so I'm afraid to kickoff community plot discussion until we're sure we've got fieldscript at the very least, because that's what will give us control over in-game events.
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More back story to the core characters (whomever might be chosen), especially Serge! As the protagonist of the story, shouldn't we know a little more about him? What's his personality like? Does he really 'love' Kid, as Radius suggests, or is it Lenna he pines for? (A 'dating' type scenario would be great, where you can change events based on how the player treats Lenna and Kid, as someone else previously suggested.)
As a huge Glenn fangirl, I'd love to see his character expanded upon throughout the game, instead of a just a little bit of backstory and a cool sword. How'd he get that scar? When the heck did he learn to wield two swords instead of just one? And is he potentially a better swordsman than his brother with dual Einlanzers? Perhaps a future Grandmaster of the dragoons?
Whoops, got a little carried away there...heh. :D
You guys are awesome for all your work. Those of us without the kind of technical knowledge you have love to hear about exciting things like this! :)
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Nobody voted to give Zoah clothes. o.o
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barfly by day, rogue Radical Dreamer operative by night
I think I helped put that idea in your head! Then again, maybe not!
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Yep, you've been quoted Boo! I thought the idea brilliant.
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MUCH Greater involvement from CT characters; specifically, Lucca. I would've loved to see a Boss battle between Serge and Lynx at the burning orphanage, and Lucca could've been a one time party member (Like FuSoYa or Seifer).
If people would read my posts for once...
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If people would read my posts for once...
Why do you feel that no one reads your posts?
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If people would read my posts for once...
Why do you feel that no one reads your posts?
I read it.. and believe me, i share the same sentiments..
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Haha, I was simply stating that my post was overlooked by most people, and that you guys were talking about the exact same thing.
Didn't mean anything by it.
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Ah, understood. Be rest assured that I read everyone's post, which is why I am still only half way through the File Exploration thread. :)
I just noticed that you have posted something about people not reading your posts in several threads, which is why I was asking about it. Maybe it just takes time for the ideas you present to really sink in.
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My vote goes to the CT Crew, although Ye Olde Battle System is a close second (who doesn't love double and tripple Techs, am I right?), with Smaller Roster placing in at third.
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I put the less playable characters. Although the thing with Trigger was that there are few characters, but they are all good.
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Thanks again for all the input everyone!
Something I'm now pondering -- overworld enemy encounters are probably perfectly doable in Cross, unlike in Trigger. In fact, it's already been done with the Robo Duckies in the Dead Sea overworld map IIRC. So question -- are enemies roaming El Nido something everybody would like to see?
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Other : Reinsert the experience system, so farewell Star levels.
I really like Cross battle system so I would not change anything about it.
Of course, more background for the characters who are not called Serge, Kid, Lynx or Harle would be wonderful.
One thing I can't tell if I'd change it for Chrono Cross or another Chrono game is about the main character. I don't know if that "silent protagonist tradition" is a good thing or not.
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Yeah I love the Cross battle system. I always hated the whole run into a random battle by taking one step thing like in Final fantasy. I saw the battle system for tails of symphonia and it's kind of like Chrono cross. At the time I hadn't played cross so I thought the system was strange. But once I played Cross, I couldn't believe I'd gotten used to the random battle system.
I've never really minded the silent main character thing. In some ways it's better to have a talking one, but I don't really care. For one thing it's fun to make jokes about the silent ones. :)
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Here's a good opinion. Considering we're giving Serge the character and personality he had in RD, then the whole adventure will be a bit storybook-ish (which I personally like a lot xD). I dunno, I feel that Chrono Cross will have even MORE of a feel than the old opera style FF6. Why not give most of the narrations in RD style? XD Not only that, his point of view can even deepen several other characters' personalities and sort.
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Why turn him it to RD Serge, am I alone in not like him? He was just too goofy and childish. Plus he looked like he was wearing pajamas.
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In Chrono Cross: The Darkness Beyond Time, Serge will be awesome. I think the major thrust of tushantin's suggestion was that we allow the player to "get into Serge's mind" more, which is doable without necessarily giving him the same personality (and pajamas) that he had in Radical Dreamers.
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I've never played RD mainly for two things. One, I don't speak Japanese. Two, It's a lot more expensive when you have to import it. If I ever manage to get around those things, I'm definitely buying it.
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Only way to play RD in English at the moment is to find a ROM and use the Demiforce translation patch on it. The Demiforce translation was superb.
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Faustwolf, for Darkness Beyond Time, are you planning on dressing Serge differently? I would love to take the task of designing a new Serge. With the hacking talent of most users here, anything could be accomplished.
Speak of the devil, here's a recording of me drawing Serge I uploaded to youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gntoo_PIGw
I seem to draw him too much...
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I wasn't considering redressing Serge, though I'm toying with the idea of Kid-viewpoint scene in which Karsh is wandering around Another World's Arni Village with a drawing of Serge and asking people if they've seen him, Terminator 2 style. I think a closeup of the drawing could be pulled off by making the drawing itself a "pre-rendered background," and having the game load it as it would a normal room. Would you like to do the sketching honors?
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You know it. Do you want me just to draw a Picture of Serge, or do you want Karsh's hand holding a visible picture of Serge? I'd much pfrefer the first option but either one is fine; You're the project leader, so it's up to you.
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Just a sketch of Serge would be fine. You can even sign it "Tact," and everyone's going to wonder whether there's a character named Tact hidden in the game somewhere...
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I went with revamping the battle system. Or should I say, devamping it. I feel that the battle system in CC was a good idea, yet poorly carried out. I also would have liked to see more familiar faces. Pink talking dogs? what ever happened to just red-haired-goku?
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Just a sketch of Serge would be fine. You can even sign it "Tact," and everyone's going to wonder whether there's a character named Tact hidden in the game somewhere...
I like that idea.
And Hmstr1hom, I found the Cross battle system to be fabulously carried out, even better than Trigger's. What didn't you like about it?
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Well, I'll admit it, my brain couldn't process the battle system. I just want a simple system, like that of the original. It was just too complex for me.... :P. And, since i don't wanna bother with tutorials, I pretty much.......suck.
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I actually played CC before CT, I had a really hard time adjusting to CT's battle system.
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Other - I'd make sure everyone got a dual tech with everyone else, and maybe throw in a few more triples too.
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My first play through of CC was a mixture of disappointment and awe. The disappointment being that the cast of Chrono Trigger hardly made an appearance throughout the game. It didn't quite feel like a sequel.
Another aspect I would change is Harle. I absolutely HATED how she left your party, and pretty much disappeared from the face of the earth after the defeat of the dragon god. She was my favorite character. :(
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The frst time I saw screenshots of Chrono Trigger, I thought it would have a real time battle system similar to Mana or Star Ocean.
I was so sad in Chrono Cross, though, to find out that my favorite Trigger character gave his life to become one with Chronopolis and help the planet. *Sigh*
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Another aspect I would change is Harle. I absolutely HATED how she left your party, and pretty much disappeared from the face of the earth after the defeat of the dragon god. She was my favorite character.
You can get her back before Terra Tower via New Game+ if you want. She's also got some of the only GOOD New Game+ endings. She's one of my favorites because they actually tried to develop her character some...not quite Kid class, but she was a close second.
I was so sad in Chrono Cross, though, to find out that my favorite Trigger character gave his life to become one with Chronopolis and help the planet. *Sigh*
Who did what now...? >_>
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Robo. He combines with Chronoplis and Fate. And when you kill Fate, you kill Robo. It took me a while to catch that too.
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I was so sad in Chrono Cross, though, to find out that my favorite Trigger character gave his life to become one with Chronopolis and help the planet. *Sigh*
It pained me as well brother.
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Before I played CT I thought that battle was so cool. I don't like it anymore. The music is cool though. Wait, at the end of the game everything is pretty much back to normal. So shouldn't he technically still be alive at the end?
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Bleh, that was just a Prometheus chip/program/whatever...That doesn't mean Robo is dead/gone/whatever. He could have just uploaded his consciousness (ala Belthasar's Nu) into the Mother Brain or something as a failsafe...
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Model R-66Y; "Robo the Robot"
Born: 2300 A.D.
Died: 1020 A.D. (DON'T ASK HOW DEAR FUCKING GOD PLEASE)
What came from the Geno Dome shall return to the Geno Dome...
That would be Robo's Tombstone... May that metallic british-accented bastard rest in peace...
Wait, did anyone else always regard Robo with a british accent? To me it's the only voice that would fit 'im.
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His "birth" would be some time before 2300 AD actually.
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But at the end of Chrono cross the time stuff is all back to normal. If I'm thinking correctly that should mean that you would never have had to kill Fate/Robo, therefore he should still be alive at the end of the game.
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Well, he'd still have TTI, wouldn't he?
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Well, he'd still have TTI, wouldn't he?
But does her have DTI?
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Well, he'd still have TTI, wouldn't he?
But does her have DTI?
Not sure, but I think this is a rectangle-square question; i.e. DTI imbues TTI, but TTI does not imbue DTI. But, I think the real implication here is that the segment before the great change in the timeline would get spliced into a new dimension/timeline(preserving the old information in the DBT, thus retaining TTI in the redundant timeline), with any changes after the great change becoming null and overwritten anteroactively. So yes, Robo would still exist in the new timeline.
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Sorry, I missed something here. Whats TTI and DTI.
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Sorry, I missed something here. Whats TTI and DTI.
Time Travel Immunity
Dimensional Travel Immunity
They're potential solutions for the Clone and Grandfather Paradoxes; I guess they're really not needed if one factors that a new dimension is created when information flows, unnaturally, from either: two points in time or two dimensions.
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I'd make it an actuall sequel, not a side-story. So, Crono Crew will be main characters.
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I'd make it an actuall sequel, not a side-story. So, Crono Crew will be main characters.
To save you the grief, go here (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Trigger:_Crimson_Echoes.html); only know that it's being done in the CT engine.
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I chose fewer characters. There's no way anybody can possibly care about all 46 of them. I'd much MUCH prefer like, I dunno, 15-25, and even THAT'S a little outrageous.
However, my personal option wasn't in there. I'd keep them all in and gladly inject some more if it meant none of the main CT characters died.
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Dario would be neat, but I'd be more interested in...
After you read Lucca's letter, you get nothing really except a sad, touching moment for Kid. What could happen is when it talks about Janus, oh yeah, you know where I'm going with this...
Magus as a playable character. Either that or in the flashback, while saving the kids, you have the choice to save Gato! Or possibly even Crono, Marle, or Lucca...
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I think it'd be cool if in Chronopolis, the RD section was actually a playable recording that would allow you to play through a revised gameplay version of RD (a CC RD?).
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I think it'd be cool if in Chronopolis, the RD section was actually a playable recording that would allow you to play through a revised gameplay version of RD (a CC RD?).
That's a pretty neat idea. They should do that somewhere...
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God, but these are tough choices. I'd best run through them all, just to make sure I can still type a lot.
Eliminate all the funny accents.
Actually, I LIKE all the funny accents. I think it's one of the few things that adds real character to most of the characters, as many of them have underdeveloped plots or at least plots that you have to join this site to get a full idea of.
Increase the game's difficulty.
Not high on my list, but simply because I think that there are a lot of other problems to solve first. A game has to be fun in the first place before difficulty (over much or lack thereof) can be considered a factor in its value. The general rule is that a game that is not fun to play should not be hard, because you want to get through it as quickly as possible. Some games can get away with this if they have other things going for them, such as story or immersion. And if a game is fun and exciting to play, you usually want it to be more difficult, thus extending this play and the amount a player has to invest to really master the system. I don't think Chrono Cross was all that fun to play, so I think making it harder would kind've suck.
Give Zoah some clothes.
Usually I'm not the kind to complain about this sort of thing, but CHRIST MAN PUT ON SOME CLOTHES!!! Combined with his Capitalized speech, Zoah becomes my nightmarish visions of every forum troll. I never play with Zoah on my party.
Totally different battle system -- return to ye olde Active Time Battle System days!
Well, I don't know about the ATB part of this statement, but certainly Chrono Cross' system needed work. I do like the whole "small hits are easier to pull off" and the "build up your magic gauge" system, but two things were glorious about the CT system: no new battle screen (still a rarity, for unknown reasons, in games) and the tech system. I love the tactical nature of the tech system, where you hold off on issuing an attack because in just a few seconds the enemies will be lined up perfectly for a line strike. This really should've been expanded on. I'm hoping the DS, with its stylus capabilities, incorporates some "draw your own lines" attacks or something similar.
Fewer playable characters altogether -- a Final Fantasy VI-size roster can produce just the right balance between variety and character development.
This was defenitely a big one for me. One of my most enduring complaints about Chrono Cross is its ridiculous character roster, especially in a game that allows you, what? Three party members at a time? It copies my frustrations from pokemon. You feel entitled to "get em all" but you don't really "want em all" and you'll never "use em all." Then of course, too, comes the problem of miniscule development for many of the character, though I do tip the hat to the team for managing to develop any of them with the butter spread over such a large piece of toast.
MORE cute comic relief characters -- the story's too depressing as it is!
God no... all you have to do is read my fan fic to see what I think of comic relief. What I find funny is when a serious character gets put in a situation where they are forced to laugh at themselves. Or, you know... when something truly funny happens. I think comic relief is a cheap way to get laughs that aren't really funny. You just get used to one character being really stupid, and it encourages bad writing. Which is something we defenitely have enough of in video games.
Greater involvement from the CT crew -- especially Crono, Marle, Lucca, Magus, and Robo.
Well, of course, this was probably my biggest complaint when I first played the game. In later years, I've come to appreciate it that a sequel should be allowed its own story seperate from the original. Plus, the CT crew (I've come to decide) is somewhat sacred. A second game could never do them justice, we'd constantly be comparing them to what they were like in the first game. Much better, actually, was the disturbing hints that they were all dead by various horrible means (though it did upset me at the time, it's probably been a creative influence on me since). Two things though... first, what is up with ghost Marle's dress? I thought she had more fashion sense than that. And two... yeah, Magus really should've been in the game, no matter what excuses the writer had to offer. I mean, he was built in. Go the extra step. I wouldn't have minded Glenn, either, though he'd be tougher. I could even make a case for Robo and Ayla... okay I'm destroying my original point. I'm stopping.
Make one or more of the following characters playable: Dario, Belthasar, Miguel, Garai, the small Fire Dragon, other (please specify).
Hmm... no, we had enough characters, thank you very much.
Better explain the underlying story using Compendium theory, and in a way that isn't so esoteric and cramped into the last minutes of the game.
This is the big one. Get ready.
1) Yes, the battle system bugged me. But it wouldn't have bothered me so much had I felt that I was going to be rewarded at the end of a dungeon by a coherent plot piece or character development. Instead, I knew that figuring out WHY I was supposed to be surprised by an event was going to be as painful and long a process as making it through the dungeon had been.
2) Yes, I was highly dissapointed by the lack of CT connection. But the truth is, there's a lot of connection. The entire plot is one big wrap up of loose ends from Chrono Trigger. It's just so buried under information that I didn't notice it until I'd beaten the game three times.
3) The huge roster list was annoying, yes, but it wouldn't have been so if more attention was given to character development. As it was, I kept wondering the whole game why they were introducing me to new characters when they still hadn't given Kidd a proper storyline. And how they dared to come up with that many new names when they'd had the gall to name the main character Serge. Of course, again, many of these characters DID have compelling back histories, but they were buried in poor presentation.
In short, I think that all of my issues with the game stem from the way the story was presented. Focus is the key word here. And thus, my real vote for the issue with Chrono Cross is as thus:
Lack of focus
Although Chrono Trigger could be said to cover just as much ground as Chrono Cross (a detailed history from the start of the human race to its fall, for god's sake), it did it in a much more focused way. You were always very aware of the current status of events and what your current quest was. The trick was that they kept things very much in the present (ironically). When you were trying to get your gate opener back from Azala, you weren't wondering how it was all going to tie into the Lavos plotline or what connection Azala was going to have to one of the characters... no, you simply were beating up a lizard who stole from you. Now, later, you discovered that Lavos was directly tied into the fall of Reptites and the rise of Humanity, and it brought up a lot of interesting side points for players to sink their teeth into. But the game didn't really point them out. It stayed focused and moved you along to the next event (now you're in an ice age and there's a kingdom of paradise floating above the planet... isn't the music cool?). And whenever things were in danger of becoming complex, the game spelled it out for you (see, Magus was summoning Lavos to FIGHT him, not to use him).
Chrono Cross was so pleased of all the twists and turns it could take that it didn't stop to consider that a couple good twists are more decisive than sixteen convoluted ones. Of course, Belthaser was running the show, and he's been proven by his journal in CT to be clinically insane. I don't trust that man.
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Gah, so hard to choose... CC sucked so much, I want to change so much of it... I voted "Other", since I wanted to do multiple things on the poll. I guess I'll do what Zipp did.
Eliminate all the funny accents
Oh gods yes. I hated all the accents. And they always repeated them when they joined your party... Ugh. The only one I really like is Pip's. (He's, like, my third favorite character, if you couldn't tell. :p) I don't know why, but I just liked his calling Serge "Sergikins". ^_^ But everyone else was just... Blargh. Draggy and Starky look cute, but their stressing of r's and o's just served to butcher their speech. S's you can stress, but not r's and o's.
Increase the game's difficulty
Um, no. I actually liked how CC wasn't all that hard. Like Zipp said, CC was not fun to play, so making it harder would be even more annoying. An SE game should focus on plot more than gameplay.
Give Zoah some clothes
Indeed. o.O I agree with Zipp.
Totally different battle system
Gods yes. The current battle system is just...blech. Why did they change it? Why? CT was so much better...
Fewer playable characters
YES! Yes yes yes! This was my second-hated thing about Chrono Cross. WHY DO WE HAVE ALL THESE CHARACTERS?! There are, like, 43 or something, right? And a ton of them are redundant... (Steena/Riddel, for example) The only ones I ever liked using were Glenn, Serge, Kidd, Pip, and Draggy. They were all the most unique/had the most backstory, I think. It would be much better if there were just 20 characters, TOPS. And that's less than half of the current roster! O_O And because there were so many, character development or even proper backstories was aggravatingly absent on everyone except, like, Serge and Kidd...
MORE cute comic relief characters!
...I have to agree with Zipp on this one. Comic relief characters just seem so forced and cheesy. No thank you. (And actually, I was surprised how smart Draggy was, for being 0 years old... I took him when I fought Orlha as Lynx, and Draggy was saying stuff like "If you do not obey yourrrrr superiorrrr officerrrr, you will be courrrrrt-marrrrtialed. Underrrrstand?" o.O For a baby, that guy is smart. (Did you see how the r's butchered his speech, though?))
Greater involvement from the CT crew
Oh yes, GODS YES. They totally should have kept Guile in as Janus. That would rock. The story as it is just seems so far-fetched and away from CT... o.O This was the part I hated the most about CC. I was expecting a SEQUEL, not a SIDE-STORY! >:(
Make one or more of the following characters playable: Dario, Belthasar, Miguel, Garai, the small Fire Dragon, other (please specify)
Let's rewind and rephrase that a bit:
Make more characters playable
...
NO. Dario and Miguel would be kind of cool, but...no. We already have an ungodly amount of characters.
Better explain the underlying story using Compendium theory, and in a way that isn't so esoteric and cramped into the last minutes of the game.
Um...wow. Zipp pretty much hit the nail on the head. I don't know what the Compendium theory is, but I have to agree with Zipp on everything in this section... o.O Especially the focus part. It's so true. CC was confusing.
So yeah. The major things I'd change about CC would be changing the battle system to be more CT-like, lowering the roster of characters, and making it actually feel like a sequel and not a side-story. And I absolutely loathed how they carefully put one little bean at a time along the path to lead you on, then at the end of the game, they realize they still have a ton of beans, so they just spill everything. o.O The game was really stingy about information, then Balthasar and the ghost children just suddenly spill everything. UGH. That shows that CC was not developed very well.
And yeah, Balthasar is insane. o.O (Isn't that the whole point though? The Guru of Life is forced to become a weapons dealer, the Guru of Time is sent to a timeless place, and the Guru of Reason goes mad)
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I just dont understand why people would want less characters on a game. Having less characters on a game is like having less eating options in a restaurant. Its just so stupid for anyone to wish for "less characters".
NEWS FLASH. You dont have to use any character you don't want. You don't even have to accept them in your party. The important characters dont suffer because of the big amount of characters because their stories are told anyways. A character you hate might be liked by someone else.
Am I missing something here? Do the CC characters come out of the game and smack your head while you sleep? Do they force themselves into your group of 3 even if you don't want to have them there?
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And if you have hundreds of eating options in a restaurant, (most of which are pretty much the exact same thing) won't you be overwhelmed and not know what to pick? Or sometimes, you'll just decide to eat the same thing at that restaurant over and over again. Isn't that a waste? This is the sequel to CT, one of the greatest RPGs of all time. It should have character development. With tons of characters, you can't do that.
And yes I don't need to use every character, but it just feels so stupid that I have nine bazillionty characters in my roster that I never use.
CT was good, because even if there were some characters you didn't like, it wasn't a big deal, because you didn't have a billion characters. And on top of that, they weren't redundant. CC has tons of characters that are practically copy-and-pastes of other characters with different abilities. The only really unique ones I could find were Pip and Sprigg. I liked Pip. (And even then, he should have some backstory as to why he reacts to Elements like he does...) I can't say that for very many other characters in CC.
They should have simply stuck with one character of each element, (something like Serge, Kidd, Guile, (as Janus) Glenn, [an important Yellow character that I can't remember], [an important Blue character], and perhaps Pip as an optional character) and maybe another 6 characters (and Pip! :D) for the Lynx section, that merge when you revert, for a total of 13 characters. That would have been fine. I wouldn't mind that. But no, they needed to give us a billion characters, next to none of them having anything resembling a backstory or character development...
The point is: CT had character development. CC did not.
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And if you have hundreds of eating options in a restaurant, (most of which are pretty much the exact same thing) won't you be overwhelmed and not know what to pick? Or sometimes, you'll just decide to eat the same thing at that restaurant over and over again. Isn't that a waste?
Thats exactly my point, its easier to find something you like if you have much more options. Once you do, you stick to what you like. It wouldn't be a waste because other people have different tastes and likes, therefore different people would choose different things. Unless we're all robots.
Isn't that a waste? This is the sequel to CT, one of the greatest RPGs of all time. It should have character development. With tons of characters, you can't do that.
What do you mean? CC has tons on development, on the important characters. If you make a list of the CC characters that have development, you'll be surprised to know its a big one. Sure, theres also tons of characters that arent even touched in this matter, but what difference does it make? If you suddenly added 30 more characters to Chrono Trigger, would the substance already present in characters liked Magus and Frog be lost? I think not.
And yes I don't need to use every character, but it just feels so stupid that I have nine bazillionty characters in my roster that I never use.
CT was good, because even if there were some characters you didn't like, it wasn't a big deal, because you didn't have a billion characters. And on top of that, they weren't redundant. CC has tons of characters that are practically copy-and-pastes of other characters with different abilities. The only really unique ones I could find were Pip and Sprigg. I liked Pip. (And even then, he should have some backstory as to why he reacts to Elements like he does...) I can't say that for very many other characters in CC.
I still dont see why it bothers you to have them there. There simply is no reason. Do you feel sorry for them? They're not real you know.
What if someone thought Pip was a useless character? would you be happy with Pip being removed?
They should have simply stuck with one character of each element, (something like Serge, Kidd, Guile, (as Janus) Glenn, [an important Yellow character that I can't remember], [an important Blue character], and perhaps Pip as an optional character) and maybe another 6 characters (and Pip! :D) for the Lynx section, that merge when you revert, for a total of 13 characters.
Boring.
The point is: CT had character development. CC did not.
Serge had development, alot more than Crono actually.
Kid had development.
Harle
Lynx
All the Acacia Dragoons, including Radius, had development.
Fargo, Nikki and the mermaid(forgot her name) had development
Norris had some I guess
And a few others
There, I made the list :?
And even characters that had none are cool, like for example my favorites are Doc and Funguy. I dont want them gone, I like them and Im glad someone thought of them and included them.
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...Norris had character development? And, uh, Fargo, Nikki and Irenes did not have what I would call "character development"... They had one sidequest, that was not very heavy on their character development. I'm talking about CT-esque character development, not some minor trace of some small thing that might pass off as character development.
Hm, yeah, let's see, about 8 or so characters out of forty-three have actual character development. Why...? This is an SE game, if they add new characters, they should give them characterization. And I'm not saying that they take away characterization from the others, it's that they're dead weight. There is simply no point to them. Like I said, there are characters that are copy-and-pastes. Yes, it's generally a good thing to have a lot of options to suit a wide audience, but really...
And how is Lavos's name do more options make it easier to find something?! If you have a library with a million books, and you only want one, then it's going to take you much, much longer to find it than if the library had, say, a hundred books. If we just stick with a couple characters all the time, what is the point of all that dead weight?!
Thirteen characters are boring? Oh, so if I copy-and-pasted those thirteen to make forty-three and gave them slightly different techs, that would make you happier? I am not kidding here, copy-and-pastes.
And of course Serge had more development, Crono was pretty much the only character in CT who didn't have any. If you compare 1 to 0, that's still more, right? Serge was confusing, though. Like Zipp says, CC takes so many plot twists that even it doesn't know where it's going anymore.
And I can understand why people could think Pip is useless -- unless you have a guide, you're not going to have a clue what's up with his transformations and his regular form's stats are pretty low. Oh, and there's that annoying bug that if you don't evolve him to his final form before you start fighting the dragons, he doesn't get any element grid extensions. The reason I like him is because I know how to raise him properly and he can be extremely versatile depending on what you evolve him into. And it bothers me to have them because, like I said, they're dead weight. All that extra space could go to expanding the game and making it more interesting, instead of doing this:
copy-and-paste
*copy-and-pastes*
copy-and-paste
*copy-and-pastes*
copy-and-paste
*copy-and-pastes*
copy-and-paste
See? Look how much space I just wasted there!
The point is, you don't need all these characters. CT had everything you needed -- a black mage, a white mage, a fighter, a paladin, a tank, and an ace-of-all-trades. The only redundant characters were Lucca/Janus, but they still managed to be rather different and *gasp* they actually had backstory and development!
Compare that to CC, where we have about 7 of each type minus the ace-of-all trades. -.- Plus Pip, and then Serge is the ace-of-all trades. Everyone else can fit into one of those categories. That's why I like Pip so much: He's the only character who has a truly unique fighting style. Everyone else is a copy-and-paste of the CT crew, minus the character development and backstory. (sans Serge, Lynx, Harle, Kidd, Radius, and Karsh for the development/backstory part)
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Serge had development, alot more than Crono actually.
Serge had more Character Development than Crono? Gimmie a break. Like I've said a dozen times before: At least Crono had a fuggin SURPRISED SPRITE! Serge in RADICAL DREAMERS, yes. CC? No.
All the Acacia Dragoons, including Radius, had development.
I don't see any of them having very much Character Development besides maybe Karsh & Radius...Glenn to an even lesser degree...I mean, c'mon, ZOAH!? You are wrong. But then again, you just say 'had development' not had a good degree of development...but even then, with Zoah you're still wrong.
And yeah, Irenes had SOOOOO much development that you couldn't even remember her name. Oh wait, or maybe it was because she was another completely forgettable character! >_>
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I'm talking about CT-esque character development
And what exactly is this? What so fantastic about the stories of the CT characters that puts all other game stories to shame? I seriously dont see it. The only one that truly is outstanding is Magus/Janus. But thats just one guy.
Hm, yeah, let's see, about 8 or so characters out of forty-three have actual character development. Why...?
Doesnt CT only have 7 playable characters? So what if the other 30 characters are there for nothing. Even if they take up space. How come Pip doesnt waste space. I think its pretty hypocritical to say that they should have ditched all meaningless characters and at the same time you want Pip to stay, when Pip is pretty meaningless itself. I dont have anything against Pip, but I'm just trying to make you see the situation I'M in.
And how is Lavos's name do more options make it easier to find something?! If you have a library with a million books, and you only want one, then it's going to take you much, much longer to find it than if the library had, say, a hundred books. If we just stick with a couple characters all the time, what is the point of all that dead weight?!
Well, maybe I should rephrase it, its not easier, but it gives you more probabilities to find what you like. I, for instance, have no special love for any CT character. I like them alot, but I dont LOVE <3 <3 <3 them. Its just 40 something characters anyways, not a million :P. And the library analogy doesnt work, considering its pretty easy to find books in a library despite of how many books it contains, plus, big libraries are way better than small libraries.
And of course Serge had more development, Crono was pretty much the only character in CT who didn't have any. If you compare 1 to 0, that's still more, right? Serge was confusing, though. Like Zipp says, CC takes so many plot twists that even it doesn't know where it's going anymore.
Plot twists? What plot twists? Out of my head, I can only think of 3, when Lynx changes bodies with you, when you find out the Dragod God thing was manipulating you into destroying FATE, and when you find out Belthasar was pulling all the strings. I find other stuff like the nature of the Dead Sea and the DBT alot more intriguing and difficult to understand than this plot twists.
and I can understand why people could think Pip is useless -- unless you have a guide, you're not going to have a clue what's up with his transformations and his regular form's stats are pretty low. Oh, and there's that annoying bug that if you don't evolve him to his final form before you start fighting the dragons, he doesn't get any element grid extensions.
Like I said before, I have nothing against Pip, I think hes pretty cool, wether hes meaningful to the plot or if he has development, thats another thing. But even if hes not, that doesnt bother me, it does seem to bother you though. Thats why I think its hypocritical from your part.
The point is, you don't need all these characters. CT had everything you needed -- a black mage, a white mage, a fighter, a paladin, a tank, and an ace-of-all-trades. The only redundant characters were Lucca/Janus, but they still managed to be rather different and *gasp* they actually had backstory and development!
And you dont need the internet! nor you need any of this video games. All you need is food and shelter. And yet we have invented an amazing amount of conveniences. If I wanted the same type of game you describe, then I would go back to the 90s and play them all again. I did recently played FFIV since i somehow hadn't played that one before and it bore me to death.
Compare that to CC, where we have about 7 of each type minus the ace-of-all trades. -.- Plus Pip, and then Serge is the ace-of-all trades. Everyone else can fit into one of those categories. That's why I like Pip so much: He's the only character who has a truly unique fighting style. Everyone else is a copy-and-paste of the CT crew, minus the character development and backstory. (sans Serge, Lynx, Harle, Kidd, Radius, and Karsh for the development/backstory part)
lol, you say this like if CT was the first game ever. Anyways. You seem to agree that a handful of CC characters had backstory and development. So whatever, youre obviously a CT fan and nothing I say will change your mind.
To be fair, I think CT is a fantastic game and it changed the gaming world forever, but I see CC on the same level.
EDIT: a new post while I was writing all that. Lets see.
Serge had more Character Development than Crono? Gimmie a break. Like I've said a dozen times before: At least Crono had a fuggin SURPRISED SPRITE! Serge in RADICAL DREAMERS, yes. CC? No.
At least Serge had a Story. Crono woke up and went on an adventure.
don't see any of them having very much Character Development besides maybe Karsh & Radius...Glenn to an even lesser degree...I mean, c'mon, ZOAH!? You are wrong. But then again, you just say 'had development' not had a good degree of development...but even then, with Zoah you're still wrong.
Acacia Dragoons + Radius - Zoah. Whatever, whats your point? What ive been trying to say is that CC has alot of meaningless characters but they arent doing any harm to anyone, so I dont see why people hate the fact that it had so many. In fact, the only possibility is that someone might like any of them. You saying that Zoah is another one in the "endless" list of forgettable, meaningless characters makes no difference, and it doesnt contradict what I'm trying to say.
And yeah, Irenes had SOOOOO much development that you couldn't even remember her name. Oh wait, or maybe it was because she was another completely forgettable character! >_>
I have bad memory? maybe? Sure, shes forgettable, yet, i still see no relevance in your entire post.
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Le sigh... I'm sick of arguing. We're both adamant and going nowhere fast. Let's just stop, 'kay? You can argue with V if you want, but...
One last thing though: I liked Pip not because he had a good backstory, (read: none) but because he was a unique character in a sea of redundant copy-and-pastes. Backstory-wise, yes, Pip sucks. But battle-wise, I like him.
But eh. Like I said, I don't feel like arguing anymore.
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Having a history isn't Character Development. So Serge still fails to Crono in that department.
If there are characters that are meaningless they should remain NPCs (the lame characters would have been GREAT NPCs). Add to that the fact that there's also no reason for them to join Serge's quest (especially since for so much of it he barely has reason to be on it)...the fact is that they aren't necessary as playable characters. If you're going to make a playable character, why not go out of your way to flesh them out? Giving them unique accents when they all say the exact same thing is not enough.
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More dual and triple tech!
That's it!
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After reading all the "arguing" going on here, the post above mine totally made my day.
This poll had way too many good options: getting rid of the funny accents is necessary (moi demands it...), Zoah needed pants, or something, and the roster was a bit large, but still fun to mess around with.
My vote came down to fewer playable characters. I always felt that instead of always being able to use any of the 40 characters, some of them should have been temporary: you help them out with whatever their problem, or they help you, and then there out of the party, or they just stay in their world. Did I need a freaking turnip on my team? Or a little space man? Not really, I used them once at the most and generally stuck to five or ten characters. And on top of that, a lot of the good characters were a little too interchangeable. Whatever though, I guess people joining in on the cause was kinda realistic...
And as far as all this character development (or lack thereof) goes, this statement summed it up perfectly:
Having a history isn't Character Development.
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*sigh
Im sick of arguing too, so I'll just say it once again. Even if CC sucks as much as you people say, removing a bunch of characters wouldn't "fix" the game. Its major flaws would still be there. Lets say that Serge sucks. So we remove ZOAH and, lo and behold! Serge suddenly doesn't suck anymore! Do you seriously believe that if they removed the useless characters the remaining ones would suddenly look better? The only thing that was going to make them better was spending more time developing them. But ditching characters doesn't translate into more developing for the remaining ones. I just dont see the point in wanting to remove characters you don't use, since it would help in no way.
Would the story be explained any easier? No. Would Crono and the crew suddenly be back? No. Would my character roster become smaller? YES it would! wow, suddenly Chrono Cross makes sense to me.
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Well, tbh, I didn't say CC sucks...I also don't think I just said to remove the lame characters...Relegating them to NPCs, though, would make their glaring lack of good Character Development matter less though...Adding Character Development for all of the characters would be a bad move too since there are so many of them that it would detract from the main storyline & such...The cast should be cut down AND THEN that smaller cast should thus gain more focus for character development. So, in a way, you're right...doing one or the other just isn't enough.
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Yeah, I don't hate Chrono Cross or any of the characters, I just felt that there were too few that didn't get the spotlight they deserved, since they had to share it with some of the more worthless characters. And I agree that removing one character doesn't make the others look better, but don't you think that there were a handful of characters that you'd never use seriously? The real reason I'd want a smaller roster was cause some of those characters really had no purpose in the game. Removing Zoah shouldn't be done to help Serge look good, but removing NeoFio, to give time for more development of Zoah's storyline on character wouldn't be too bad, in my opinion.
That's why I think some of those blokes should have been temporarily playable: we wouldn't care if they lacked a phenomenal storyline and we wouldn't have to feel too bad about never using them. The large roster was fun, some times around, but it could become slightly overwhelming. In fact, the first time I played through, I loved having that many characters, so I could try and find different double techs and whatnot, but by the latter playthroughs of the game, I wished I didn't have to waste time with some characters so I could find out more about the characters I liked. Not knowing enough about the fallout between Fargo and Viper will always piss me off.
Then again, who is to say that removing one character would allow the developers to give some of the other characters more storyline? If that's what you're saying, LavosFan, then I can understand why you'd think removing characters is a pretty worthless suggestion.
EDIT: And the fact that they had so many characters to the point that they had to scrap putting Magus in the game really pissed me off. If losing a handful of unnecessary characters could have put Magus, a character who is arguably the most memorable in a series, into Cross, it would have been a welcomed decision, in my opinion.
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-Incorporate Compendium theories and wherever CT Compendium theories would affect CC.
-Bring back Magus. Leave Guile in if necessary, if not, replace him with Magus.
-Give Serge some speech. (Not RD Serge. CC Serge kicks ass with the Mastermune)
-Use CT Battle System.
-FILL IN THOSE DAMN PLOTHOLES, YOU SICK F***S!!!
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-Incorporate Compendium theories and wherever CT Compendium theories would affect CC.
-Bring back Magus. Leave Guile in if necessary, if not, replace him with Magus.
-Give Serge some speech. (Not RD Serge. CC Serge kicks ass with the Mastermune)
-Use CT Battle System.
-FILL IN THOSE DAMN PLOTHOLES, YOU SICK F***S!!!
Personally I prefer the CC battle system.
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-Incorporate Compendium theories and wherever CT Compendium theories would affect CC.
-Bring back Magus. Leave Guile in if necessary, if not, replace him with Magus.
-Give Serge some speech. (Not RD Serge. CC Serge kicks ass with the Mastermune)
-Use CT Battle System.
-FILL IN THOSE DAMN PLOTHOLES, YOU SICK F***S!!!
Personally I prefer the CC battle system.
I don't sorry. Too damn complicated for me.
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Two of the main reasons I prefer it are you rarely have to rely on items for healing, and it's completely unique. When you think about it the CT battle system is similar to a lot of RPGs. Okay maybe not a lot, but you get my point. And it's not even that complicated.
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Chrono Cross' battle engine was a huge departure and was pretty unique (in 1999-2000) as far as RPG battle engines stood. In fact, I'd think it still stands out as far as functional, working, and just strong.
Now, do I prefer it to Chrono Trigger's? Nope.
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CC battle engine > CT battle engine
I'm sorry, but it's just downright true.
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Chrono Cross' battle engine was a huge departure and was pretty unique (in 1999-2000) as far as RPG battle engines stood. In fact, I'd think it still stands out as far as functional, working, and just strong.
Now, do I prefer it to Chrono Trigger's? Nope.
I admit, Cross' Battle System was unique, as no RPG so far has implemented it yet, but it was hard as hell. I remember hitting a roadblock with the Hi-Ho Tank. I was looking forward to playing as Lynx.
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Hard? I thought it was the exact opposite...It was less 'complicated' & more just packed full of unnecessary crap...It seemed like they just threw in every little idea they thought of to try and make something interesting & new.
CT's battle system seems better because the cast was so well defined. Each character filled a specific role by having certain attributes that held them above the others for certain reasons. The attacker, the healer, the mage & those that were middle of the roads...each character & combination could fit your own style of play...in CC the differences in stats were negligible at best...some may have had higher attack or magic stats, but it rarely really changed anything because pretty much everyone had the same 3 Techs (that looked different) & all the same Element magics.
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It was hard for me.
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It seemed like they just threw in every little idea they thought of to try and make something interesting & new.
Except that it was interesting and new. I personally found CC's battle system far more captivating and, yes, more enjoyable than CT's.
The complaints I'm reading about the story and the characters are laughable. So, basically, the plot sucks because it was complex and required you to think a little? "HERF DERF CC WAS CONFUSING", yeah, okay. To me, it was quite intriguing and the twists throughout upheld my interest and urged me to unravel more of its mysteries, which I found very rewarding upon doing; The pace wasn't entirely consistent at all times, but sufficient enough to thrill and encourage me to keep playing. To be frank, the fact that several of the characters lack development isn't that much different from CT's characters, and it really isn't an aspect that deserves much whining and moaning considering that it can be circumvented; It's not going to drag your experience down since you don't have to have them join your party and more than half the cast can be easily avoided. I could complain about the majority of Trigger's characters here and the logic would be no different. Despite the extent of development, a fair number of CC's cast really stood out in my mind. Again, yes, slightly more so than in CT (but that's probably because CC had more characters to begin with).
I'm sorry, but I've got to admit that several of you seem to be overemphasizing CC's flaws to immense proportions. Considering that just the same could be done with technically any game, this is an unfair assessment. Having played both games, I'm finding that too many are clinging to and being downright biased towards CT, whether this is fueled by nostalgia and/or frustration at a different feel (even though I wasn't bothered at all by it). Several fans are rather hesitant to admit that CC did, in fact, improve upon a great many of CT's aspects.
If I was to change something, though, I'd definitely vote on raising the difficulty a bit. The game did get a bit easy at times.
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The only new & interesting aspect of the battle system was the hit percentage attack thing...and that really didn't end up changing much at all. Everything else could pretty much be found in other RPGs, including the lens flares. *nyuck nyuck*
I find that everyone on each side compares it to CT, whether they like it or not ("It's totally not as good as CT"..."It's even better than CT")...whether one reaction is because of the other, I don't know, but I think they certainly both feed off of one another...
the fact that several of the characters lack development...
Try well over half.
it (the low amount of Character Development) really isn't an aspect that deserves much whining and moaning considering that it can be circumvented...you don't have to have them join your party and more than half the cast can be easily avoided.
Ah, yes, the old "they're optional!" argument...Doesn't fly with me...maybe because I really only see Kid & Harle to be anywhere near well developed members of the cast (and Harle's kind of stretching it)...If they're there, they should be more than pawns to move around in the battle system...They should be characters...The low amount of character development is actually accented by the fact that some of them actually do have one or two scenes (mostly when they go, "Hey! That's me! Only you're, like, kinda different & stuff! Here's a Lvl 7 Tech!")...These are RPGs, I think that Character Development should be a priority.
I could complain about the majority of Trigger's characters here and the logic would be no different.
Except that they were pretty much all well developed characters.
I'm sorry, but I've got to admit that several of you seem to be overemphasizing CC's flaws to immense proportions.
I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.
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Eh...there's some development, but Trigger is overshadowed by Frog and Magus. They're so well developed that they make all the other characters comparatively puny.
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The only new & interesting aspect of the battle system was the hit percentage attack thing...and that really didn't end up changing much at all.
Really? I wasn't aware that the field effect and star leveling amongst a few other aspects weren't actually new or innovative. Regardless, I had a pretty fun experience with the battle system despite there being a few unnecessary abilities, whereas Trigger's battle system (which, let's admit, was still pretty basic despite the tech innovation) often required constant and desperate healing and reinforcing with me. The timing in certain battles also annoyed me, but that's another story.
I find that everyone on each side compares it to CT, whether they like it or not ("It's totally not as good as CT"..."It's even better than CT")...whether one reaction is because of the other, I don't know, but I think they certainly both feed off of one another...
Personally, I don't really feel that both games need to be constantly compared so much as acknowledged as two fantastic games in their own right, despite personal preference. And that is precisely why I drew on a few comparisons between the two.
Ah, yes, the old "they're optional!" argument
They are. Of course it could have been much better, but it's a relatively minor issue that's often inflated and exaggerated in a rather excessive attempt to downplay the entire game.
.If they're there, they should be more than pawns to move around in the battle system...They should be characters...
I'm sorry, but there is a difference between personality and character development. Character development refers to a dramatic change in characterization through plot events, personality does not. Reality check: Right many of Cross' characters do indeed have characterization in some form. As I've stated in my previous post, several of them really do stand out.
The low amount of character development is actually accented by the fact that some of them actually do have
one or two scenes
A fairly large portion of the party were given a few scenes for basic character establishment. It didn't incorporate much development by any means, true, but it didn't detract from the personality factor either. While character development in general can certainly improve an RPG's structure, I don't consider it absolutely essential so much as I do characterization alone (and as stated before, they should not be confused). I suppose this is where we disagree.
Except that they were pretty much all well developed characters.
I was referring more to the majority of all the major characters, including those not in the main party, though Crono himself pretty much lacks development completely. I don't really consider Lucca to be as well developed as she's sometimes made out to be, nor Ayla. Granted, a few of the party characters were given substantial focus.
I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.
That is irrelevant, since it doesn't really deem the bias any less significant, regardless of which game is at subject. It's still there. No matter how you spin it, CC is rarely acknowledged as a great game by Chrono's fan community. Personally, I see far more fans bashing CC than CT.
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I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.
That is irrelevant, since it doesn't really deem the bias any less significant, regardless of which game is at subject. It's still there. No matter how you spin it, CC is rarely acknowledged as a great game by Chrono's fan community. Personally, I see far more fans bashing CC than CT.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, while you do find more fans bashing CC than CT, a great portion of the Chrono Series fan community do have a fondness for Cross. Chrono Trigger fans, on the other hand, do sometimes fall into the category of "CC is too radical a departure from CT" and proceed to bash it. If we acknowledge that CC wasn't a direct sequel, then we can easily hold the game in its own light. CT has that nostalgia aspect to it, something that CC didn't seem to offer--of course some die hard fans are gonna use that as a reason to resent CC, but to say that Chrono fans don't acknowledge CC's greatness is kind of presumptuous.
As far as some of the other points you brought up go, I'll agree that CC's battle system was pretty damn innovative, I liked how easy CT's was, but CC's was definitely fun. My question to you about the characters is, do you think that the sheer amount of characters distracted from character development? You've already mentioned that personality and character are different, but I didn't see too much development in some of the CC characters. They had character, don't get me wrong, but did they really develop? Getting a small cut scene isn't development. And sure it can be circumvented, but why is that an excuse? Just cause you don't have to get a character doesn't mean they deserve to be worthless pawns, as V put it.
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Well, that's where we disagree then, Celestial Insanity, I count a character's personality as a part of Character Development.
I also think that in the case of Crono, Serge cancels him out. One shows emotion a few times and the other has a history. I'll take the few scenes of emotion (even just the surprised sprite scenes) over the lackluster Serge character we got in Cross who we get told about his past...
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You've already mentioned that personality and character are different, but I didn't see too much development in some of the CC characters. They had character, don't get me wrong, but did they really develop? Getting a small cut scene isn't development.
No, I don't recall arguing that they have.
And sure it can be circumvented, but why is that an excuse? Just cause you don't have to get a character doesn't mean they deserve to be worthless pawns, as V put it.
My point was that I don't really consider them to be worthless pawns due to the mere fact that they did have characterization. Yes, there was some wasted potential here because they lacked the development, but I honestly don't consider character development as a requirement in pawn avoidance. I consider characterization to be. Quite a few lovable characters - whether in fiction, gaming, or what have you - completely lack transition. I don't think Chrono Cross should suddenly be an exception.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying in any way that the lack of character development was a flaw, but I think the fact that they had characteristics and personalities alone prevented this from being too big of a deal. I'm simply conveying my opinion that this is a flaw very often blown out of proportion. Chrono Cross is by no means perfect; I just don't consider it to be as bad overall as some of those in this thread have.
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I'm not arguing that you said getting a small cut scene is development: I'm saying that I said it. You, however did mention that personality and character development are different:
I'm sorry, but there is a difference between personality and character development.
That's my mistake though, I did say character instead of character development.
But as far as these characters go, sure they didn't need to be developed--you're right, we have lovable characters elsewhere that are underdeveloped--but the enormity of the character roster coupled with many characters' underdevelopment does distract from the game, in my opinion. Then again, I'm not anti-CC at all, in fact, it's among the greatest RPGs that I've played.
You gotta remember, this thread is about what you'd change about Cross and how you'd do it. Just because I'm a fan of the game doesn't make it flawless, we do blow things out of proportion, I'll give you that, but to desire change is understandable.
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I don't disagree with that at all. No game is perfect. I wasn't trying to imply that CC didn't need character development so much as simply attempting to point out that I don't think the lack of it necessarily makes a character a "worthless pawn"; that characterization, rather, is the true necessity in avoiding such a label. I also don't think the flaw of lacking it was as large as some have made it out to be, but I fully agree that adding character development would certainly improve the game.
Personally, in the case with CC, my main problems stem from difficulty as I've mentioned earlier. At times, there were some pretty tough bosses, while at other times, the game was unbearably easy. I also had a few qualms with the accent system because I found it a little annoying and, in certain instances, kind of difficult to understand.
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I voted Other. I'd want a completely different story. The only things I'd really want to keep would be a resolution for Schala, the idea of going to an alternate world where you had died and the idea of the "dead" timeline.
My other choices in order of priority from what was there would've been:
1. Fewer playable characters altogether -- a Final Fantasy VI-size roster can produce just the right balance between variety and character development.
2. Greater involvement from the CT crew -- especially Crono, Marle, Lucca, Magus, and Robo.
3. Eliminate all the funny accents.
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I agree with (1) and (3) wholeheartedly. It was annoying trying to get what characters I could so I could assemble the perfect 3-man team (with Serge in the lead as always) with so many people to choose from. The accents kept me from being able to fully understand what the hell they were saying, though often times it wasn't hard.
For (2) I would propose even the NPCs from CT (Gina, Gaspar, Melchior, King Guardia, Fritz, etc.) would appear, not just those from the Seven (Crono [YES, TEAFLOWER VAGRANT, CRONO] and the rest).
On a personal note, they should give Miguel a happy ending. He can show up on Opassa Beach, having found himself at the entrance to the Sea of Eden in 1010 AD with his memories (of his imprisonment and the encounter with Serge at Nadia's Bell) still there, and has lived his life in Arni ever since.
EDIT: Whoops, wrong person. My bad, teaflower.
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I'm sorry, but I just don't have any remorse for Miguel. I WAS STUCK ON HIM FOR MONTHS! He can stay dead for all I care. Same goes for Garai. Although I didn't have quite so much trouble on him.
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It's not a matter of remorse. Look at him. He had one of the most tragic stories in the whole damn game, next to Kid!
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Nah, the music just makes it sound more tragic than it actually is...It's like the mirrors on cars "images may be closer than they appear"....>_>
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Miguel was probably one of the easiest characters to feel sorry for, if you ask me--he really didn't gain anything out of what he and Wazuki did, and he's just sitting there unaffected by time, left alone in his own misery. And the music...holy shit, that's one of the more powerful songs in the game...it was distressing.
But that fight was a bitch, so all my empathy faded away.
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Miguel wasn't hard for me, and I hoped he would get out alive like Serge and company. If I could change something in Chrono Cross, having Miguel survive would be one of those changes.
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Miguel's fight wasn't as hard as it was arduous, I just remember it taking forever during my first play through--his fight separated the boys from the men, at least in my case--but regardless, he seemed like an interesting character and I wouldn't have been surprised to see him take on a more active role in the greater scheme of things...
If there were any characters that could have easily been developed more, I'd say Miguel (and by extension Leena) would be one of 'em.
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Miguel wasn't hard for me, and I hoped he would get out alive like Serge and company. If I could change something in Chrono Cross, having Miguel survive would be one of those changes.
Hey, Sarge, did you see this?
On a personal note, they should give Miguel a happy ending. He can show up on Opassa Beach, having found himself at the entrance to the Sea of Eden in 1010 AD with his memories (of his imprisonment and the encounter with Serge at Nadia's Bell) still there, and has lived his life in Arni ever since.
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Yes, but instead, I would make him join you.
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Ooh, that's even better. We should make a hack in which he does join up after he is defeated in the Dead Sea.
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...with new features, what kind of features would you like added?
I'd like:
1. A treasure atlas
2. A bestiary
3. A music box
4. An ending log (one that actually let you watch any endings you unlocked, whenever you want)
5. A new dungeon or two, or at least a few more sidequests (even without those added, though, it would be fine, because there's already plenty to do in the game)
6. Some more backstory to resolve any remaining questions regarding the fate of Crono, Marle, and Lucca, the rise of Porre, etc.
7. A new character or two might be cool, too
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Maybe new dual/triple skills.
Ah, and I'm more curious about Magus's fate.
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Miguel's fight wasn't as hard as it was arduous, I just remember it taking forever during my first play through--his fight separated the boys from the men, at least in my case--but regardless, he seemed like an interesting character and I wouldn't have been surprised to see him take on a more active role in the greater scheme of things...
If there were any characters that could have easily been developed more, I'd say Miguel (and by extension Leena) would be one of 'em.
Me too, I tried many times to defeat him. But I really enjoy the music and background. The first boss fight which slayed my party was the dwarves, but that was just because I was not careful enough(HihoChorus). Miguel is another thing, he's really tough for a newbie. XD
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Magus' fate, a more elaborate canon ending, replacing the name Time Devourer with Fused Dragon on top of Terra Tower, loose plot ends tied up (wtf happens to the Frozen Flame?), and Crono and co.'s fate unambiguously explained. Not much else I can think of that would make it a better game.
1) A treasure atlas
How so? They already have an item section with pictures and descriptions of the major "treasure" in the game, the rest is just equipment/parts that are collected.
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All the things Entity said sound pretty cool. Except that I wouldn't want any new characters. Instead I'd like them to tie in Guile as Magus, and develop other characters more (particularly the minor ones like Draggy and Leah) to tie in to the story. I do hope they would keep the story mysterious like they did in the original, but imo they should remove the Ghost Children forever. They don't make any sense and are just there for plot dump.
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but imo they should remove the Ghost Children forever. They don't make any sense and are just there for plot dump.
Well we could argue the shade bosses in CTDS somehow connect to them, so at least they have some meaning... in a flimsy way. Plus I thought their dialogue improved the Miguel scene.
But yeah, keeping out of analysis here, I'd like to see a polished script most of all, and also more development/backstory for those who need it. I say keeping the tons and tons of characters is fine as long as that important few have reasonable development. Call me crazy, but I think a lot of the game was lacking dialogue, mainly during the Lynx section of the game. I felt like it was trial and error, just trying to get somewhere without any clear objective or reason.
I'm agreeing with chrono eric on the TimeDevourer thing. That bugged me.
Tying in Guile as Magus... I dunno. I'm not sure what to think of the new ending, but I'll just wait and see.
I don't think the game needs to cover Crono and Marle, though. There are enough plot threads as it is, and besides, Cross was intended to be a new experience, it can stand on its own two legs.
Last thing... Make the whole underlying Dinopolis and Belthasar plots more clear. Oh, and speaking of which, Dinopolis could be a new dungeon?
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For (2) I would propose even the NPCs from CT (Gina, Gaspar, Melchior, King Guardia, Fritz, etc.) would appear, not just those from the Seven (Crono [YES, TEAFLOWER VAGRANT, CRONO] and the rest).
For the record, the reason I'm against Crono returning is because he needs to stay mute, and it just doesn't work if he isn't the main character. And I'd rather he wasn't, in a Chrono Cross(esque) plot.
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How so? They already have an item section with pictures and descriptions of the major "treasure" in the game, the rest is just equipment/parts that are collected.
Do they? I forgot about that. I haven't played the game in ages. :(
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Key items have pictures, but regular items don't.
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Yeah, but I was thinking of something like CTDS, where you can view maps of locations and where all the items are.
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7. A new character or two might be cool, too
Is that sarcasm? Aren't there enough characters in Chrono Cross?
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I would say the most important thing would be that it gets a PAL version, so people like me may have the chance to play Chrono Cross. They're (claiming that they'll be) correcting their mistake with Chrono Trigger. So, as long as it gets a DS, Wii or 360 re-release I'm not bothered by what they add. But, the extras they put in should be similar to CTDS, becasue it was great to see a completed ending log. :)
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First of all, get rid of the thirty or so pointless extra characters, so the other ten or so that are actually essential to the plot can actually get some good character development. And yeah, tying in Guile as Janus would be totally awesome. :D Polishing up the script and battle system would be nice, too.
There's already a "If you could make Chrono Cross better, how would you do it?" thread, though, so it may interest you to check that out...
Yes! There is...!
~V_Translanka
PAL version would be good too. No one deserves to be left out from popular video games.
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No one deserves to be left out from popular video games.
Damn straight. It sucks that you missed out.
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Huh? No I didn't. I bought CC fair and square. I just feel annoyed that other people are missing out, that's all.
Oh, and also, the "Extra" menu features from CTDS would be awesome, too. :D
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Ooh, cool! Didn't know CTDS had an Extras menu.
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Me too, I tried many times to defeat him. But I really enjoy the music and background. The first boss fight which slayed my party was the dwarves, but that was just because I was not careful enough(HihoChorus). Miguel is another thing, he's really tough for a newbie. XD
Aye, the Dwarves really fucked me up during my first playthrough, I had a hard time with Dario and Garai too--Miguel raped though, I think I got too caught up in the music to realize how hard he'd kick my ass.
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I know people are gonna disagree with me, but I'd think it'd be cool if they just replaced Guile with Arf. His design was sweet and I was dissapointed that he didn't make it into the final. Besides, Guile dosn't add that much to the story anyway, so it's not too big of a change.
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Is that sarcasm? Aren't there enough characters in Chrono Cross?
Not sarcasm. I enjoyed collecting all the characters.
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There's already a "If you could make Chrono Cross better, how would you do it?" thread, though, so it may interest you to check that out...
Is there? I must have missed that. :?
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Man oh man where do I start.
1. Limit the game to maybe 10 or so characters. My pick would be
Serge, Kid, Glenn, Karsh, Zoah, Leena, Norris, Radius, General Whatshisname, The mustache boat guy, and the Mermaid. (Have not played the game in a while...) I'd say pick a whole set of new characters related to the first game, (Schala, Glenn, Crono and Marle's son, yada yada) but then the game wouldn't be Chrono Cross let's work with the existing set.
2. Double techs for all and Triple Techs for all with Serge.
3. Battles take place without switching to a new screen. (on the world map) a la Chrono Trigger
4. Battle system is fine, but can I please have experience and levels?
5. Eliminate the accents! This is stupid!
6. Voice acting for key scenes.
7. A less convoluted plot. Compare: Chrono meets a girl at the Milennial Fair and and takes her to his friend's teleportation exhibit when something goes terribly wrong. The girl is transported into the past and Crono follows her to save her. Crono and his friends figure out how to travel through time and discover that they must change the past to prevent a bleak future from occuring. EASY!
Compare with:
Serge goes to a beach to collect seashells to make a necklace for his girlfriend when something goes terribly wrong! He is transported to another dimension, similar to his own in many ways but with subtle differences. For Serge, though the difference is major, as Serge died in this other reality. Suddenly there's this mysterious girl with a funny accent who finds him and decides to tag along with no motivation. They are for some reason going to search for the frozen flame, but we aren't really sure why. Serge meets a lot of friends, including Dogs and aliens and mermaids. They go on lots of quests to do things that aren't clear as to why they are doing them. There's nice music. In the end you find out that the whole world in this game isn't real, it's made by a computer called fate, which controls everything, and that includes the people in the world. This game is somehow connected to Chrono Trigger but we aren't really sure how other than that the funny girl is supposed to be Schala's clone and you have to play a song to set her free from Lavos.
Ah, this is too much.
Here's a better fix...
1. Change the name to something that doesn't contain Chrono in it, and remove all the references to Chrono Trigger. How about Beachwarper or something?
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1. Guile and Glenn added to the main cast.
In Chrono Cross, these two characters were optional. In the re-release, I would make them mandatory. Explain this logic to me: Glenn is one of the best characters in the game, but can only be unlocked if you opted not to save Kid with the Hydra Humour. Of course, most of us went and got it anyway because Kid was awesome, and we got Korcha instead. That's quite a price to pay for NOT being a cold, heartless bastard.
As for Guile, if he really is supposed to be an amnesiac Magus, he too should be mandatory. Guile joins you in Termina to raid Viper Manor (I would rewrite the circumstances surrounding this, as well), and at some point in the game he recovers his memory and becomes Magus once more.
2. Double/Triple-techs for everyone in the main cast.
From what I remember, the mandatory party members were Serge, Kid, and the Acacia Dragoons. There may be more. In any case, with Guile and Glenn added to the list, that would make quite a crew right there. I don't expect Square to remove all the optional characters, however I do expect them to add more depth to their crucial ones. Every pair must have three double techs apiece, as well as a triple tech with Serge. I would give the Dragoons their own triple tech as well.
3. Serge unmuted.
Why do game developers not give their main character a voice? In most cases, it's because the main character is intended to be the player, who fills in the blanks on his own. This was the case with Crono, who didn't have a past of his own and so he is intended to be the one holding the controller. Fine. But Serge? Serge's past is by far the most intriguing aspect of the game, and he has gone through so much turmoil that it is simply impossible for us to imagine ourselves in his shoes. He spoke in Radical Dreamers, and he should have spoken in Chrono Cross -- in my opinion, at least.
4. Ditch that collecting items shit (weapons/armor).
One of the most annoying things about the game was that I not only had to buy elements, but that I couldn't buy weapons and armor unless I had the necessary items. This was obviously inspired by the trip to the Prehistoric Age in Chrono Trigger, when money didn't exist and to get new weapons and armor you had to collect whatever was dropped by enemies. To me, this is fine as an option, where you can get somewhat stronger weapons and armor if you take time away from the main quest to go through the process of finding the items. However, in a game that doesn't even allow you to level up, I would at least like to be able to update my equipment without dealing with the bullshit. Oh, and while we're on the subject...
5. Let me level up my characters.
Fighting bosses will level up your elements or something, I don't really remember. But, that was fine. Experience points should be brought back for leveling up characters' stats, however. This is a straight-forward request.
6. Chrono Trigger DS extras.
Basically, the same extras that were in CTDS, but for CC. Again, pretty straight-forward request.
That's all for now.
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Is there a difference in how things play out if you DON'T decide to save Kid?
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There's a pretty huge difference yeah. A few out of the top of my head:
- You'll never get Razzly, so there will be no Hydra baby, the dwarfs will not return to the forest, and Rosetta will die. You will get the Serge and Kid campfire scene after the Ice Breath quest though.
- You won't have Kid during the S.S. Invincible chapter
- You won't get Korcha and he will be upset with you for the rest of the game finding you a scam who doesn't help his friends
- Norris will bring the Hydra Humour to Kid
- You get Glenn (which is a pretty big difference in itself but you'll have to see yourself when you take him to Fort Dragonia)
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Youll also get Korcha's mom, whatever her name is.
@Black Wind= The whole collecting items for equipment thing isnt really a Chrono series unique feature, you can find it in other square games. They just want you to work for the good equipment, instead of easily buying it, but I guess it can get annoying. Maybe they should make it so that only the final equipment needs you to gather items, that would make it better, perhaps.
I also don't mind the no level ups. I played FFIV recently, and whenever I told someone that I was having trouble with a specific boss, their advice would always be "youre probably underleveled". It seems that whenever someone gets stuck, instead of trying to come up with some sort strategy and make the game fun, they just overlevel and brute force their way through the tough parts of games, but thats me.
If I had to change something, I would agree with Black Wind and give Serge lines, and give double and triple techs around, those are some nice stuff that I had never really thought about but it would definitely make the game more enjoyable, at least for me.
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Youll also get Korcha's mom, whatever her name is.
Macha.
And on a related note, I just re-bought CC yesterday. I can't wait for it to arrive. :D
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1. Guile and Glenn added to the main cast.
I think the exact reason they are optional is because they're so great; they wanted to make them harder to get.
Making Guile mandatory because he's Magus(not saying he definitely is, but if it turns out that way) would do exactly what they tried to avoid. If Magus was in the game, everyone would probably use him Serge, and Kid, exclusively. They put so many characters in the game for variety. Making Guile mandatory would negate that.
2. Double/Triple-techs for everyone in the main cast.
Yeah, I can get behind this.
3. Serge unmuted.
First, Radical Dreamers Serge is not Chrono Cross Serge.
Second, I love silent protagonists because I can mentally insert whatever thoughts and dialougue I want into a situation, but that's me.
4. Ditch that collecting items shit (weapons/armor).
I admit, it was irritating at times, but, ultimately, I liked it because it's one of the things that made Chrono Cross more unique.
5. Let me level up my characters.
I believe stats do increase depending on how much you use certain actions. Attack more, strength goes up. Use elements more, magic goes up(like in Final Fantasy II only better). I get what you're saying, though; you want straight up experience. I'm not a grinder. So I much prefer Chrono Cross's leveling system.
6. Chrono Trigger DS extras.
Sounds good to me.
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I think the exact reason they are optional is because they're so great; they wanted to make them harder to get.
Making Guile mandatory because he's Magus(not saying he definitely is, but if it turns out that way) would do exactly what they tried to avoid. If Magus was in the game, everyone would probably use him Serge, and Kid, exclusively. They put so many characters in the game for variety. Making Guile mandatory would negate that.
That would be pretty stupid, considering the possibility that someone could play through the entire game and never encounter two of its best characters. If you're going to put forth the effort into making two great characters, they should be accessible to everyone. And Guile himself wasn't really a great character, though he could have been if they went the Magil route. If Magus is indeed Guile, I expect it to be a mandatory and elaborate plot element in the re-release, as Magus is just as much of a central character in the series as Schala, Lavos, etc.
And despite putting so many characters in the game for variety, they really didn't have that many. They were different characters in name and appearance only. It basically came down to equipping the elements you wanted on the characters that you wanted to have them. Your strategies more or less remained the same. This is what I'm trying to fix. With the addition of more double/triple techs, you're not going to want the same party all the time.
First, Radical Dreamers Serge is not Chrono Cross Serge.
Second, I love silent protagonists because I can mentally insert whatever thoughts and dialougue I want into a situation, but that's me.
Yes, I'm aware of this. But the Serge of Radical Dreamers and the Serge of Chrono Cross were main protagonists -- so why is only one of them able to speak?
I understand your second point, and like I said, this was perfectly fine for Crono. He's a normal guy just like you or me, who is thrown into the game without a backstory because whatever happened to him prior to the fair is irrelevant to the plot.
Serge, however, is a completely different story. It's impossible to relate to him and fill in the gaps accurately because his past is such a major plot point and is so unlike our own (at least, I would hope so). For example, Serge has a fear of cats because of what happened to him when he was young. Most of us don't, and because he doesn't speak the only way we even know that he has a fear of cats is when another character explains it to him. Considering that Serge is the one who's gone through so much shit in his life, I want to know what HE is really thinking/feeling during the game. Like when he first encounters Lynx, or when they switch bodies, or when he finds out that Lynx was his father. I really think that giving Serge his own dialogue would add far more to the game than it would take away.
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1. Change the name to something that doesn't contain Chrono in it, and remove all the references to Chrono Trigger. How about Beachwarper or something?
First of all, that sounds stupid. Second, if you look deeper into the plot than what you just described it's amazing just how much the two games connect. So if it were to not be Chrono there would be some very major changes.
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I really think that giving Serge his own dialogue would add far more to the game than it would take away.
I agree. Cross is just one of those games where you just have to have EVERYONE speaking, even Serge, the "Silent Protagonist."
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1. Change the name to something that doesn't contain Chrono in it, and remove all the references to Chrono Trigger. How about Beachwarper or something?
First of all, that sounds stupid. Second, if you look deeper into the plot than what you just described it's amazing just how much the two games connect. So if it were to not be Chrono there would be some very major changes.
Sure sure, there are references to the first game all over it. I remember, I played the game, but they all seemed contrived.
It wouldn't be anything major at all except changing some text, removing the kids from the game, and change Schala to Serge from the other world...
I don't mean that they should actually do this, but it would have been very easily not a game related to chrono trigger.
But then again, the Final Fantasies aren't related either, but nobody complains..
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If Magus is indeed Guile, I expect it to be a mandatory and elaborate plot element in the re-release, as Magus is just as much of a central character in the series as Schala, Lavos, etc.
Well, I see your point about getting their feet wet and now having to jump in. The ending in CTDS implied something was going on with Magus, and now they should follow through.
It just seems to me that if they made Guile, no doubt about it definitely Magus, his presence would downplay all the other characters in the game. Granted, many weren't too exciting to begin with, but having Magus in the game would make the others throwaways.
I really think that giving Serge his own dialogue would add far more to the game than it would take away.
You make an interesting case. Serge is more complex than Crono, and Serge probably would make for some fascinating conversation. The only thing that irks me is that if he was given a concrete personality, I would feel cheated in the instances in which you choose his dialogue. I'd feel obligated to answer in the way I'd think Serge would answer instead of how I would. I guess that's my problem though.
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Perhaps how he responds can be based on which choice you make, like in Mass Effect.
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I really think that giving Serge his own dialogue would add far more to the game than it would take away.
I agree. Cross is just one of those games where you just have to have EVERYONE speaking, even Serge, the "Silent Protagonist."
Last time I remember playing Cross, I recall that in the Temporal Vortex(The strange place with Sprigg and Harle), doesn't Serge appear and begin to speak? I think that that portion of the game had Serge speak a little.
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That was probably not Serge himself but just some kind of mirror image. But if he was going to be unmuted, that's the way he should talk.
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Righto, but people don't complain over FF cause they know they're not sequels or related to each other all that much, but people see Chrono Cross and occasionally have a hard time connecting the two. They're in the same universe and continuity, but you're basically following a new story. It could have easily not been a Chrono game, but I don't think it did badly as such. I gotta say though, I liked all your other suggestions--basically in that same order.
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Fewer playable characters. I'm sure there are some people that'll be mad at me, but yes, I do believe all the useless characters made it to hard to impliment Magus into the game. If not, it certainly didn't help.
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It wouldn't be anything major at all except changing some text, removing the kids from the game, and change Schala to Serge from the other world...
While I agree that most of the other references can be changed without much difference taking place...The main impact of CC was in what happened to Schala...If it just turns out to be Serge from a different dimension or something else completely unrelated to anything, then who cares? Schala is the core of what makes Cross Chrono Cross...
Oh, and according to the Special Event Polling forum, the most popular characters at least in CC were (in alphabetical order...! A- & B-grade characters only) Fargo, Glenn, Guile, Grobyc, Harle, Karsh, Leena, Kid, Mojo (he was iffy...more of a C-grade character, really), Nikki, Norris, Orlha, Pierre, Pip, Radius, Riddel (kind of iffy, inbetween B & C), Serge (der), Sprigg, Turnip (another iffy, actually more of a C-grade), Viper (aka General Whats-His-Name) & Zappa...That would cut the cast significantly while still having a good number for Element variety...
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Why turn him it to RD Serge, am I alone in not like him? He was just too goofy and childish. Plus he looked like he was wearing pajamas.
Actually, I thought he looked like Geno from Super Mario RPG, kind of.
But I digress. Having JUST started playing Cross, I already like it, and I am a Diehard Trigger fan. Frankly, I don't care if it isn't a direct sequel. It IS related to Trigger, even if it sometimes seems like a random Cameo, implimenting Trigger charecters into a completely different Ordeal. But I can say for a fact, If Cross was never made, the fanbase would be much smaller, and the Story altogether would of been much, MUCH shorter.
This remaking Cross thing seems like a wonderful idea, I would like to see Serge having diolouge, Less charecters/More charecter devolopment, no accents, shortening the charecters to a Team again, like in Trigger, more use of CT charecters, more double/Triple techs, and a mix of CT/CC battle elements. I love the fast paced battles, and like someone mentioned, take out the end of battle screen/music. I don't see why it can't just tell us "Serge's strength went up by 1!" and "would you like to use remaining elements to heal? Yes-No" in a style simalar to Trigger. Note this is not hate for Cross, I just think that more elements from Trigger should have been used.
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I voted to go back to the Active Time Battle System but I have another, admittedly more superficial change I'd make if I could.
I can't stand Cross's art style. I found the drastic change from Toriyama's character designs to what I see as very bland ugly characters jarring and off-putting. Of course I realize this is just my opinion, but it was a pretty big issue for me. The Toriyama designs had a very distinct feel, and seemed to me to have more personality to them, while the cross designs looked very generic and kind of dead inside. I honestly probably wouldn't have bothered with Cross at all if it weren't for it's connection to Trigger. When I first saw it on store shelves it looked like "Just Another RPG" to me.
I've toyed with the idea of doing Toriyama style revisions of some of the Cross characters for a while now, and I just might. If someone were interested, I could potentially do Toriyama style portraits for a hack, but I have a feeling I'm mostly alone on this one. I think I did a passable job of emulating his style with my female Magus pic http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:Maggirlfinal.jpg.html (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:Maggirlfinal.jpg.html). Not trying to derail the thread with posts of my artwork, I just thought I'd put that out there in case someone really is interested in Toriyama-ing Chrono Cross.
Again, I realize this is all just my opinion, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to claim that the art style "doesn't really matter", but it does to me.
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I can't stand Cross's art style. I found the drastic change from Toriyama's character designs to what I see as very bland ugly characters jarring and off-putting. Of course I realize this is just my opinion, but it was a pretty big issue for me.
Interesting, interesting...I've always been a fan of Cross's art style, personally, I thought it looked a little more mature and realistic. But I can totally understand where you're coming from though.
I've toyed with the idea of doing Toriyama style revisions of some of the Cross characters for a while now, and I just might. If someone were interested, I could potentially do Toriyama style portraits for a hack, but I have a feeling I'm mostly alone on this one. I think I did a passable job of emulating his style with my female Magus pic http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:Maggirlfinal.jpg.html (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:Maggirlfinal.jpg.html). Not trying to derail the thread with posts of my artwork, I just thought I'd put that out there in case someone really is interested in Toriyama-ing Chrono Cross.
First off, that's some phenomenal art! Second off, I'd love to see your interpretation of Cross characters in a CT style, I think it'd be a neat re-visualization.
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I wasn't much of a fan of the art either...While some of them like Serge, Leena & Glenn look like they belong within the world they populate, a lot of them just don't seem like they could be adventurers (everyone in CT fits, but then again, with a small cast, it's harder to have someone who stands out as not belonging)...I guess it's ok for some warriors to have colorful outfits since they're in a tropical locale, but with all the freaks in the CC cast, there's a lot of douchey looking losers. For every Glenn or Leena, there's two or three NeoFio or Funguy...
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Oh definitely. Funguy was just plain fucked up, but some of the other characters, like Zappa, looked perfect, in my opinion. Then again others, like Karsh, wore some seriously ridiculous clothing...
Anyhow, Toriyama's art has a very nostalgic appeal to it, so seeing that applied to Cross might just be the greatest fan art ever.
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Funguy...his name is funny.
Yeah, he's not cured after all, and still a mushroom monster...but he said he like his new looking...what the... :lol:
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I absolutely loved Yuuki's portrait of Belthasar, but thought Toriyama fared better as a character designer -- the one to come up with the clothing and basic body structure. I'd love to see Toriyama and Yuuki teamed up on the same art team, with Yuuki applying his style to Toriyama's designs.
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That would be like that painting in that castle in one of Edgar Allan Poe's stories. If I ever remember the title, I'll edit this post.
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I absolutely loved Yuuki's portrait of Belthasar, but thought Toriyama fared better as a character designer -- the one to come up with the clothing and basic body structure. I'd love to see Toriyama and Yuuki teamed up on the same art team, with Yuuki applying his style to Toriyama's designs.
That'd be brilliant. Yuuki's art had a very artistic feel to it, and there was a breadth of realism in it as well. I'd love to see what he'd have done with Melchior or Gaspar...
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I'd rather see Yoshitaka Amano's renditions of Crono & Co...Mainly Magus...but his take on Robo & Frog would have to be pretty bitchin as well...
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Oh, yeah, I'd definitely want to see all the main characters--I thought that was a given--but as far as NPCs go, Melchior would be nice to see re-envisioned.
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Well, yeah, but we were talking about two different artists...>_>
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Oh shit, I didn't even see you write Amano there--I figured we were still talking about Yūki--Amano's art is...strange to me. He's got a very artistic style, but it's just hard to understand at times. Half the time I wonder how the sprite designers try to follow his character designs.
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Simply put: Sometimes they don't...>_>
What might be most impressive would be Amano's designs of some of the bigger monsters in the game...Lavos obviously comes to mind...But mainly I just imagine how bitchin that scene with Magus in front of that freaky statue with all those blue flames in that magic circle would look in an Amano painting (though it's also a scene I'd love Toriyama himself to give us)...
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Although I'm not a huge fan of Amano for game-art but picturing his art as "art", as in art you could hang in a museum, he's pretty amazing. Very imaginative...strange, but beautiful. Hell, I wouldn't mind hanging that blue-flame thing you mentioned above my fireplace.
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Personally, I'm just curious which system it would most likely be on. Given how the Element Grid system works, the DS might be a good choice. Any other ideas?
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I know people are gonna disagree with me, but I'd think it'd be cool if they just replaced Guile with Arf. His design was sweet and I was dissapointed that he didn't make it into the final. Besides, Guile dosn't add that much to the story anyway, so it's not too big of a change.
Alf is just Guile's name in Japan...If you mean the design idea sketches (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/c/c0/114.jpg) of his character, which one? There's like 5...
The problem with adding leveling is the fact that in other RPGs you will actually learn new spells or abilities (certain abilities at certain times can mean do or die in many RPGs), this isn't really true for Chrono Cross (a few of them have a handful of Techs)...
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Hah, maybe it's better to name him Alfador... or when Sneff changes him into a cat, he should look like Alfador.
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Or when Sneff changes him into a cat, he should look like Alfador.
Wouldn't that be impossible? Guile can't be in the party at that moment.
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Yeah, he won't join you when Serge is in Lynx's form.
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In order of importance to me:
- Eliminate the Accents. Over time I grew to be able to ignore them, but to me they do not provide depth to the characters at all and in many cases really irritated me. In games accents should be rarely used, and if done so the few characters with accents will appear more unique.
- Smaller Cast of Characters. Not necessarily as few as Chrono Trigger, but I would have preferred a smaller cast that had more unique speaking roles and expanded stories.
- Increased contact with the CT crew. Unlike some others I don't feel the CT characters should have been playable, after all their story is over. But I feel that relegating them to such a small role in CC was a disservice to the characters and their interactions could have brought considerable depth to the story as well as giving a different perspective on the events transpiring ingame.
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If i could change chrono cross i would make it explain more about the fall of guardia,what happened to crono and others, explain more on the whole magic guild, eliminate the most annoying accents, eliminate the non essential characters (like Greco,Mojo, Pierre, Nikki, Mikki, Mel, Neo-Fio, Van, Gough etc.) from being in the game, explain more on the ghost children(are they crono marle and lucca or a bunch of ghost who like making us think there crono marle and lucca?), make guile secretly Magus who we don't know officially is him until the end, make schala look like she did in chrono trigger(blue hair and stuff), make harle less of a enigma and get rid of her fake accent, make serge speak, make it so that the Prometheus circut reveals it used to be robo, make it that the time crash is explained upon, change Glenn's name so people don't think he's frog, make turnip look less like a cheap frog knock off, make pip's more essential to the story because he's interesting and make his forms look more like devils and angels instead of just adding fur and changing his color and make his forms stay after you turn of the system. Also make it so that you can leave serge behind like you can crono in chrono trigger, give every one more development and backround, make gaspar and spekkio make a guest appearance in the bend of time, make that guy with buck teeth lose his buck teeth, get rid of the octopus decoration's in the bend of time, make the mystical knight's recognise guile as Magus in the battle if he's on the team, make the game not end in a huge cliff hanger.
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If i could change chrono cross i would make it explain more about the fall of guardia,what happened to crono and others, explain more on the whole magic guild, eliminate the most annoying accents, eliminate the non essential characters (like Greco,Mojo, Pierre, Nikki, Mikki, Mel, Neo-Fio, Van, Gough etc.) from being in the game, explain more on the ghost children(are they crono marle and lucca or a bunch of ghost who like making us think there crono marle and lucca?), make guile secretly Magus who we don't know officially is him until the end, make schala look like she did in chrono trigger(blue hair and stuff), make harle less of a enigma and get rid of her fake accent, make serge speak, make it so that the Prometheus circut reveals it used to be robo, make it that the time crash is explained upon, change Glenn's name so people don't think he's frog, make turnip look less like a cheap frog knock off, make pip's more essential to the story because he's interesting and make his forms look more like devils and angels instead of just adding fur and changing his color and make his forms stay after you turn of the system. Also make it so that you can leave serge behind like you can crono in chrono trigger, give every one more development and backround, make gaspar and spekkio make a guest appearance in the bend of time, make that guy with buck teeth lose his buck teeth, get rid of the octopus decoration's in the bend of time, make the mystical knight's recognise guile as Magus in the battle if he's on the team, make the game not end in a huge cliff hanger.
Holy shit.
As awful as that was, there's actually a lot of valid points in there, I must say.
Here's hoping for a port of Chrono Cross! :lee:
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Chrono Cross was a fantastic RPG. It was something new, but it still kept had some of the spirit of Chrono Trigger.
At first I hated a lot of the meaningless characters, but after awhile I began to realize that they were all part of the game's charm. It was a good deal of fun trying to collect them all.
I guess the one thing that bothered me about CC was that it took place in the CT universe, but that universe was greatly changed without any explanation. What happened to Guardia? Why? What's the deal with Schala/Kid? If Kid's here where's Magus?
Luckily this great site attempts to answer these questions, but the game should have given us a bit more closure. If not closure, then the game shouldn't have teased us with all these CT refrences.
I also felt the game was far too easy. I loved the idea that you could esacpe from any battle, even bosses, but if that's the case these bosses should've been extremely hard. I beat the game my first time through without ever coming close to death. That should never happen. Give me some difficulty.
Now, I'm by no means bashing Chrono Cross. It was a great game in its own right. I would've tidied up the story a bit, thrown the Gurus of Time and Reason in there, filled in some loose ends between the two games, and made it a bit more difficult.
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You'd think Cross would have Crono and the others in it, but the best you get is Belthasar, Lavos, and images of 1999 AD, Crono, Marle, and Lucca. Other than that, and the first word in the title, it's its own game.
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Actually, for me it seemed like a great game on it's own, with Cameos of charecters from Trigger. If you take that into Account, it is by all means a great game. It definitely carries the Feel of Chrono, and it kind of feels like Final Fantasy, in the respect that alot has changed, but some is the same.
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Actually, for me it seemed like a great game on it's own, with Cameos of charecters from Trigger. If you take that into Account, it is by all means a great game. It definitely carries the Feel of Chrono, and it kind of feels like Final Fantasy, in the respect that alot has changed, but some is the same.
I agree. I don't really like sequels that give us more of the same. If I wanted that, I'd just play Chrono Trigger again. Chrono Cross established its own identity. That's tough to do for a sequel.
I just wish it wasn't so ambiguous about everything. Especially the ending.
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Actually, for me it seemed like a great game on it's own, with Cameos of charecters from Trigger. If you take that into Account, it is by all means a great game. It definitely carries the Feel of Chrono, and it kind of feels like Final Fantasy, in the respect that alot has changed, but some is the same.
I agree. I don't really like sequels that give us more of the same. If I wanted that, I'd just lay Chrono Trigger again. Chrono Cross established its own identity. That's tough to do for a sequel.
I just wish it wasn't so ambiguous about everything. Especially the ending.
Hear hear.
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I didn't read any options past getting rid of the funny accects before voting. Always hated some of them, especially Poshul. Reading it's like listening to Scooby Doo on valium after getting hit in the head with a sledgehammer.
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What'th wrong, Sergiepoo?
Hahaha!
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That's just awesome. The description there... Is.... LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOL. LOL. and an :lol: for good measure. anyways... *AHEM*. I hate the Accents as well.
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Some accents worked well others .....ewww irenes XD
If chrono cross had voice acting maybe the accents would have been better
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Actually, for me it seemed like a great game on it's own, with Cameos of charecters from Trigger. If you take that into Account, it is by all means a great game. It definitely carries the Feel of Chrono, and it kind of feels like Final Fantasy, in the respect that alot has changed, but some is the same.
I agree. I don't really like sequels that give us more of the same. If I wanted that, I'd just play Chrono Trigger again. Chrono Cross established its own identity. That's tough to do for a sequel.
Yes and no. While I get what you're saying about redundant sequels, I think that sequels that have little to nothing in common with their predecessors are equally pointless. It is definitely possible to make a sequel that stays true to the previous formula while adding new content to sweeten the pot, and a good example of this is the Metal Gear Solid series. Even if people bitch about the amount of cutscenes (and they will), there is not one rehash in any of those four games, and yet the fact that they're sequels is unmistakable.
I don't see the point in trying to make a sequel that's completely different from the experience that came before it. Nintendo tried it with Zelda II: Adventures of Link and the NA version of Super Mario Bros. 2, and they failed miserably, whereas Link to the Past and SMB3 were each an astounding success. So why not just make it a completely fresh game then, not bound by the shackles of expectations? Often it's because latching onto a popular game/series will keep it from selling poorly if it doesn't work out. Not that Chrono Cross didn't have anything in common with Chrono Trigger -- it did, here and there...but really could have been its own game and appreciated for what it is. The CT references easily could have been edited or removed and the game wouldn't have suffered. Hell, it would have benefitted if it had a different title -- maybe not from a business perspective, but certainly from a gaming one.
Unfortunately, Square decided to market CC as a true sequel even when it wasn't intended to be until they started re-releasing CT. Now they'll probably re-release or even remake CC with this in mind and tie the two games together even more. What a mess.
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Well, maybe a sequel, but not exactly a direct one, more like a sidequel. That's how I see Cross related to Trigger.
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Oh, I almost forgot to answer the question on this poll. Well, I can't pick just one (so I'll fill in "other" instead), so I'll label each choice as to why I would/wouldn't include them.
Red = No, Green = Yes, Yellow = Somewhat
Eliminate all the funny accents.
For most of the characters, the accents were the only personality they had. It would have worked a lot better if it was voice acted, though.
Increase the game's difficulty.
There was nothing wrong with the game's difficulty. An option would be nice for "hardcore" gamers, but this was not one of my gripes.
Give Zoah some clothes.
Zoah's attire (or lackthereof) was pretty comical, actually.
Totally different battle system -- return to ye olde Active Time Battle System days!
Changing the battle system completely is unnecessary. However, there are certain aspects of it that need to be changed badly. As I've always said, the lack of double/triple techs is extremely annoying, especially with so many characters. Hell, there were even a lot of single techs that could have been added in. The battle system was basically picking whatever element you wanted to whoever you wanted to have it. Also, though this isn't part of the battle system per se, this too needs to be changed: collecting items to make weapons. At least give me the option to buy weapons without having to do that, like Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts do.
Fewer playable characters altogether -- a Final Fantasy VI-size roster can produce just the right balance between variety and character development.
Definitely. There's a reason why FFVI is considered one of the best games ever made. At least ditch the annoying/irrelevant ones -- we all know there were plenty.
MORE cute comic relief characters -- the story's too depressing as it is!
If there was a color redder than red, I would use it for this one. Since there isn't, regular red will have to do. Absolutely fucking not.
Greater involvement from the CT crew -- especially Crono, Marle, Lucca, Magus, and Robo.
FUCK YES.
Make one or more of the following characters playable: Dario, Belthasar, Miguel, Garai, the small Fire Dragon, other (please specify).
No. There are enough playable characters, and frankly these aforementioned roles were fine the way they are.
Better explain the underlying story using Compendium theory, and in a way that isn't so esoteric and cramped into the last minutes of the game.
I'm not familiar with Compendium theory -- although, I'm sure anything would be better than the horseshit they gave us.
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CT references easily could have been edited or removed and the game wouldn't have suffered. Hell, it would have benefitted if it had a different title -- maybe not from a business perspective, but certainly from a gaming one.
I'm fairly sure I already went over this, but who would have cared about it if it was just some random chick who was melding with the Time Devourer? The best parts of CC were those that linked with the Chrono world. Without them, it would have been a fairly bland game.
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True enough, Trans. I originally failed to see how Cross got the "Chrono" in its name.
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CT references easily could have been edited or removed and the game wouldn't have suffered. Hell, it would have benefitted if it had a different title -- maybe not from a business perspective, but certainly from a gaming one.
I'm fairly sure I already went over this, but who would have cared about it if it was just some random chick who was melding with the Time Devourer? The best parts of CC were those that linked with the Chrono world. Without them, it would have been a fairly bland game.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. My favorite parts of Chrono Cross were related to Chrono Trigger too. However, I am also aware that there are a lot of people who played CC without playing CT and loved it -- the sales can testify to this. Therefore, from their perspective, Schala was some random chick, aside from her ties to Kid, but that didn't seem to diminish their opinion of the game. I can't speak for any of them, I'm merely calling it the way I've seen it.
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How do the sales do that?
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They can't. I'm sure a lot of people first experienced Chrono Trigger through a ROM, as I did.
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So? Just because you got to play it on a ROM doesn't mean shit. You'd be surprised how many people were oblivious to ROMs, especially back then. The fact that CC sold so much more than CT did means that there's a good percentage of people in there who didn't play CT and bought CC for whatever reason. It's pointless to try to deny this unless you can find evidence that every single person that bought CC and not CT had already played it via a ROM or a friend...which you can't, because it's complete bullshit. Therefore, the massive gap in sales is a very good indication of this.
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You can only prove it as much as you can prove that people bought CC without playing CT & loved it. Sales charts proves neither.
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I'm a big fan of CT and feel the CT references were one of the best parts of Chrono Cross.
I will say though that 9 of my group of friends bought Chrono Cross and loved it without ever hearing of Chrono Trigger before it (only myself and 2 friends had played Chrono Trigger, and neither of those friends bothered with Chrono Cross), and for 3 of those people it was their first RPG. I of course showed them the glory of CT afterward when I realized they had never played it.
Hearsay and personal stories don't mean anything in the long run I know, but I'd like to share that in my experience there are many people who played CC without any knowledge of CT.
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I played CT with no knowledge of CC, and when I heard of the sequel, I uttered these very words: " Holy. Shit. I'm buying that game soon." However, after learning the expensive price on Ebay, it had to wait. Ad then I finally bought it... :D
My point is that they are some of, if not THE Best RPG's ever made. In my opinion, of Course. I don't call favorites- As they are the same series.
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When I started playing CC, I played it on my brother's PS2. And it was a big PS2, before the skinny PS2s came out.
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What are the real sales figures of both CC and CT? I mean, you can also look at their early sales figures: in 10 weeks the SNES version of CT sold 2.31 million copies worldwide (http://www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=2999®ion=All), whereas CC sold .69 million copies worldwide (http://www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=360®ion=All).
Honestly though, I don't really know how accurate these numbers are: CT reportedly sold 290,000 copies outside of Japan (where it sold 2.36 million), whereas CC has definitely sold over 1.5 million copies worldwide, as that's how it got its "Greatest Hits" notoriety. Yet most people contend that CC sold more copies than CT. I don't even know which sold more, so let's see the numbers to back up these claims.
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I don't really care enough to look it up. They're both wonderful games, and how well they sold has no bearing on that.
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I agree: I've argued over and over that sales figures, while impressive to the creators of the game, aren't the fairest and most accurate indication of that game's success. But people keeping toting claims without backing 'em up--if you're gonna say Cross outsold Trigger by quite a bit, I'd like to know how much.
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you could just walk away. Or do this thing, that this guy's doing:
:picardno
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you could just walk away. Or do this thing, that this guy's doing:
:picardno
That would be a facepalm.
Picard's is nice, here is some more ala infinitum.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/FouCapitan/1193787061806.gif)
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Ah, I appreciate the Phoenix Wright... though it's somewhat exaggerated for this case.
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I wouldn't say Phoenix/Naruhodo is doing a FacePalm, since his hands are at the sides of his head.
Then again, what do I know?
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I never even really cared how much more CC sold than CT (I obviously prefer CT regardless, if you couldn't tell by my posts), nor did I even know what the sales figures were until I came here. I think it was Darkman's signature that boasted how CC sold twice as much or something.
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I never even really cared how much more CC sold than CT (I obviously prefer CT regardless, if you couldn't tell by my posts), nor did I even know what the sales figures were until I came here. I think it was Darkman's signature that boasted how CC sold twice as much or something.
Even if those figures are accurate, you have to take into account that the number of gamers in the world increased dramatically in the late ninetees, following the release of PS1, Dreamcast, and N64. So of course older games would have sold less.
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If I could change Chrono Cross, I'd cut some of the minor characters, involve more of the CT cast, and give everyone decent backstory! We love the backstory, you see. Overall, it's a good game, but the characters are mostly flat.
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Overall, Chrono Trigger would of sold more because of the ports, so... It doesn't quite matter anyways.
And I chose exactly the same, tea. I think.
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I think it was Darkman's signature that boasted how CC sold twice as much or something.
It used to be Dark Serge's. I just copied it to show I agreed with him.
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Well the sig is intentionally ambiguous: the 1.5 million sales of CC are worldwide, whereas the 2.24 number is a multiplication of CT's US sales. Whatever though, CC could have done pretty well as a standalone game--I think the references to CT pulled it together for Chrono fans, but as far as the actual game goes, they didn't give it the 10/10 it received from Gamespot: the game was fantastic to begin with.
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It used to be Dark Serge's. I just copied it to show I agreed with him.
I somewhat agree with it. My only complaint about CC wasn't about it being unsuccessful, plot holes, lack of development, or any of the things your sig touches on. I didn't like parts of CC because at times it felt like a promotional ad for Greenpeace, and others it just slapped the previous game's happy ending in the face.
Chrono Trigger - "We saved the future, yay!"
Chrono Cross - "No you didn't, you screwed the future up royally and now it's coming back to murder you in your sleep you goodie goodie jerks!"
Those gripes aside I still think it was an excellent game.
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I saw it more as, "You forgot about Schala and now reality's going to end unless we go on this overly complicated quest to play her a song...jerks!"
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I saw it more as, "You forgot about Schala and now reality's going to end unless we go on this overly complicated quest to play her a song...jerks!"
I was referring more to the fates of our previous heroes.
Lucca = Face on a milk carton
Robo = Alt+F4
Crono & Marle = How does I lost kingdom?
Again I point to the final pacing of he story. This happens, then this happens, then these guys appear, then this place needs to be sorted out, then these guys need to be stopped, finally, at the end... Oh by the way, this is all to save Schala.
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Again I point to the final pacing of he story. This happens, then this happens, then these guys appear, then this place needs to be sorted out, then these guys need to be stopped, finally, at the end... Oh by the way, this is all to save Schala.
That's the best CC summary of all time.
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Robo = Alt+F4
I can't even begin to describe how fucking hard that made me laugh. Good show.
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"If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it?"
Now, is this in the sense of how it was originally presented, or in the sense of "If you could hack the game, and do anything you wanted with it, what would you change?"
Because in the latter sense, I have a few ideas of how I'd like to see Chrono Cross, taking how it is now and incorporating some...changes. (As opposed to, like, the thought of rebuilding it from the ground up, or something - I wouldn't want to go THAT far, heh.)
And Robo = Alt+F4? Best. ...Something. Evar. I give up, I have no words to classify what this is, except freakin HILARIOUS. "Good show", indeed. XD
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first of all,I'd make karsh the protagonist! :mrgreen: not silent,though 8)
jokes aside,I voted for the option of explaining the plot better and not cramp it up at the end of the game,but there's also other things I would change,like make the game more difficult(especially the final boss :shock:) and having fewer playable characters with a background(of which dario and miguel would be great,especially dario 'cause I've found him interesting)
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I went with fewer playable characters. I'd also go with greater involvement of the CT crew and not cramming everything in at the end, but I can apparently only have one vote. :(
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I am a newbie of the Extremely Sad variety who actually considered this in detail during a recent playthrough of the game. And wrote it up.
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(The original point 1 was introductory garbage.)
2. Additions Other than Character Backstory Events
-Magus and Dario as additional playable characters (but *without*
removing Guile to replace him with Magus)
-An additional ending replacing the "bad ending" produced when the
player defeats the Time Devourer without invoking the elemental
sequence (the "Magus Goes Berserk" ending)
-Some actual dialog for Serge (I've never liked the "silent protagonist"
schtick, although CC at least pulls it off well enought that it doesn't
seem actively stupid--Yeah, Suikoden V, I'm looking at you).
-Additional dual/triple techs, between characters with logical connections
to one another
-The ability to trade forging materials for other forging materials, instead
of just Elements-->forging materials (or am I the only one who's ever
ended up with 50+ bones and no carapaces?)
-Reduce the number of weird accents. Harle's and Pierre's pseudo-
French kinda works, but could we please get rid of the chaCHA?
-Auxiliary characters/"tag-alongs": The ability to have one or more
characters "present" in the party for the purpose of dialog and events,
without having them actually taking part in combat (although if a tag-
along is a fully playable character, the player should be able to switch
him/her out with the playable characters, even in a dungeon setting).
This is intended to be similar to the "support character" system in the
more recent Suikoden games, and may be more workable in a
remake than a hack. And yeah, I have a reason for this.
3. Likely Casualties
Some peripheral characters such as Janice may have to be demoted to
NPCs or completely removed, depending on available resources.
4. Disposition of Characters
a. Characters who must be implemented from the get-go: Serge, Kid, Guile,
Magus, Lynx-Serge, Harle, Norris, Karsh, Radius, Steena.
b. Second pass--Dragoon Cluster: Zoah, Marcy, Dario, Glenn.
c. Second pass--Pirates'n'Musicians Cluster: Nikki, Fargo.
d. Third pass--Porrean Science Cluster: Luccia, Grobyc.
e. As Time Permits: Leena, Miki, Sprigg, Skelly, Leah, Sneff, Pierre, Orlha.
Leena, Leah, Sprig, Sneff and Miki will need to be in as NPCs if they are
not playable, barring major plot alterations.
f. Demotable to NPC: Viper, Riddel, Korcha, Zappa, Orcha, Razzly, Macha,
Starky, Irenes, Mel, Doc.
g. Bottom Priority/May Be Dropped: Poshul, Janice, Draggy, Mojo, Turnip,
NeoFio, Greco, Funguy, Van, Pip.
Characters in the first category are vital to the storyline (with the arguable exception
of Magus). The next three groupings tie into significant sidequests/plot developments.
The "as time permits" characters either have some plot link, or some potential for
interesting backstory. Yes, Pierre's inclusion here means that one branch of the
"to Viper Manor" section of the game may cease to exist.
The "demotable" characters are needed briefly for various plot purposes, but aren't
very useful as fighters for the most part. The desire to occasionally have some of
these people attached to the party (Starky near the end, frex) despite them being
NPCs is one of the drivers behind the "tag-alongs" idea.
In order to be placed in the "May be Dropped" category, characters must utterly
fail to tie into the main plot and be completely missable for recruitment regardless
of story branches chosen. Curiously enough, most of the characters that appear
to have been invented when the CC devs were smoking substances of questionable
legality fall here. Their primary purpose in the game seems to have been adding
variety to the set of available combat styles, and while some of them may be *neat*,
none are useful from a story point of view.
Elemental breakdown is as follows:
a: 2 Wht, 4 Blk, 1 Red, 1 Yel, 2 Grn (Magus is presumed to be black-innate; Dario, white)
b-d: 1 Wht, 2 Blk, 3 Blu, 1 Yel, 1 Grn
e: 1 Blk, 3 Blu, 1 Red, 1 Yel, 1 Grn
Total: 3 Wht, 7 Blk, 6 Blu, 2 Red, 3 Yel, 4 Grn
Observations: Too much black/blue even if Lynx is ignored, and too little red/yellow
(white is less of a concern, because Serge is white-innate). If anyone from f-g is to
be drawn back in, the priority must therefore be given to red/yellow characters (then
to white/green). Or perhaps it would be useful to change the innates of, say,
Luccia and Grobyc?
Total characters in a-d: 18.
Total characters in a-e: 25.
5. Stat Growth, Grid, Etc., for New Characters
a. Dario: A white-innate(?) heavy fighter who equips swords. Copying Glenn's
growth and grid for him should be sufficient, if there isn't enough information
attached to enemy-Dario. His techs would be physically-based, and he would
likely have duals with Glenn and Karsh, and possibly also with Zoah and Marcy.
(There should also be a triple-tech for any all-Dragoon party, although I suppose
you'd only get to see it in a New Game+.)
b. Magus: This is more complicated. The Magus of Chrono Trigger is
*the* most powerful spellcaster in the game; in fact, there are indications he
may be the most powerful spellcaster in that world's history. His stats are
impressive: by the time he reaches level **, he has maximized all but two
(where all the other characters fail to max out at least three) and has the
highest or second-highest value of any PC even in those stats he hasn't maxed.
The game succeeds in keeping him in the "middle tier" of melee fighters, so to
speak, only by giving his best weapon an attack stat 60 points lower than that
of Crono's Rainbow.
Keeping that in mind, Magus *should* have a magic stat more impressive than
Guile's or Riddel's, and be, again, in the second tier of fighters--templating the
growth of his physical stats from someone like Norris might work, but his
magic stat growth will have to be done from scratch. To prevent him from
becoming tremendously overpowered in the early game, I propose "back-loading"
his Element Grid even more thoroughly than Guile's, giving him no level 1-2 slots
at all, and occupying his only third-level slot with a tech. If need be, he can be
given an in-game line to the effect that his magic is so powerful it tends to overload
and "blow out" lower-level Elements. Again, his grid growth would have to be
worked out from scratch.
His techniques would be taken from his spells in Chrono Trigger--Dark Bomb,
Dark Mist, and Dark Matter. He would probably have a dual tech with Guile
and possibly a late-game one with Kid.
His physical aspect probably won't have changed much since we last saw him--
he may be a bit more human-looking, but would still have long blue hair, light
skin, ears that are at least slightly pointed, a tendency to float instead of run
(which he probably taught to Guile) and a fondness for long capes, scythes,
leather armour, and colours in the blue range. He would also have the Amulet
Schala gave him unremovably equipped, even though he would initially not
remember what it was.
Alone of the characters, Magus has no counterpart in the alternate dimension,
not even a dead one--he exists only in Another World, having skipped over the
dimensional split by means of time travel.
6. Character Backstory and Development
a. Serge: Covered by the original game, although I would like to dramatize the
Lynx <-> Wazuki connection, rather than having it infodumped by Ghost-Crono.
b. Kid: Covered by the original game.
c. Magus: Again, this is complicated. Magus will appear in the game
initially after Kid has been poisoned at Viper Manor--a favour called in by Guile
will have him bringing the Hydra Humour, rather than it being a fetch-quest. At
this point, Magus is suffering from complete amnesia regarding events before he
woke up in the woods near Porre several years earlier. He retains his name
only because some Porrean history buff remarked that he resembled the Mystic
leader of some four centuries earlier, and the name "felt right" to him. However,
upon seeing Kid, he discovers that she seems familiar to him--although he doesn't
know why--and decides to join up with Serge so that he can keep an eye on her.
(He has a similar reaction to the Zeal crest on the Astral Amulet--familiar, but he
doesn't understand why.) He retains his rather acidic, goal-directed personality
and bad habit of making casual death threats despite not remembering who he is,
and he will not voluntarily allow himself to be separated from Kid, taking a tag-along
slot (or requiring that she take one) if necessary.
Unlike the other characters, Magus will not believe for an instant that Lynx-Serge
is really Serge (wrong aura), and so catches up with the real Serge either while he's still
in the Temporal Vortex, or shortly after he leaves. He's also acquainted with
Sprigg--Magus is apparently the current head of the continental Magic Guild to
which both she and Guile belong.
He recognizes the Masamune, naturally, but only on the same basis as the Zeal
crest--"I've seen this thing before, but I don't remember where, and [in the
case of the Masamune] I don't like it."
Magus begins to regain his memory during the incident with the ghost-children at
Nadia's Bell, at which point one of them (probably Lucca) addresses him as
"Janus", causing some blurry and largely non-visual memories to surface. He recalls
that his proper name is Janus Zeal, and is able to put names to the three ghost-
children and remember a bit about both the defeat of Lavos and his Zealian
childhood, but he still can't recall his sister's face.
Things firm up a bit when the characters return to Viper Manor and run into
Belthasar in the library--Magus, naturally, recognizes him, but of course, the
old man won't tell him anything useful yet.
Lucca's letter startles him ("I was . . . looking for you?"), but doesn't produce
anything much useful.
He doesn't completely regain his memory until the final conversation with
Belthasar at Terra Tower, at which time the old man *finally* fills in the
blanks for him. Magus doesn't take Belthasar's meddling well, and probably
has to be restrained from killing the old man (or not--offing the old bastard
might actually be *good* for the Chronoverse). He also figures out that there
is a relationship between Schala and Kid, although I doubt he actually tells
the party anything useful at this point.
(It would be nice if, upon regaining his memory, Magus discarded his
Element Grid and returned to the practice of "true magic" in the style of
Chrono Trigger, but if this is implemented as a hack, that may be prohibitively
difficult. In that case, he would receive his Level 7 "Dark Matter" tech here.)
He will, at this point, become stubbornly attached to the party *as well as*
Kid, refusing to be left behind or leave her behind (now you understand the
real reason I wanted those "tag-along" slots!)
Logically, he will have some dialog with the children on the beach, but I'm
not sure, as yet, what it will contain. He may express some surprise that
Kid is a clone, given that she's blonde. Likewise, his presence will alter the
"good" ending. ("Schala . . . All you have to do to find him is go to Arni.")
He'll have even more effect on the "bad" ending, where Schala is not
separated from the Time Devourer. Instead of nothing happening at the
end of the combat, Magus will flip out and attack Serge (knocking other party
members, including Kid, out, if necessary). And if Magus wins this fight, he
will take his rage and grief out on the world, destroying it as thoroughly as
Lavos would have.
If he loses, his dying words will probably be addressed to Kid. ("I'm sorry . . .
Schala.")
d. Guile: He's probably known Magus for quite a while (depending on the
exact timing, he may even be the one who found him wandering around
near Porre with no memory), and had some sort of teacher-student
relationship with him. Flashbacks to this might give the opportunity to
show a little of his life on the continent and the reason why he left. He
appears to be refined/educated--could he be a disgraced or disposessed
nobleman?
e. Harle: Covered by the original game, more or less, given that she *needs*
to be enigmatic.
f. Karsh, Dario, and Riddel: I put these three together because their stories are
intertwined. They do get a certain amount of backstory in the original game
(more than most of the other characters), but it seems to me that one vital
point has been left out: there are *two* Riddels. The Home World Riddel
wouldn't have had any reason to tag along to the Sea of Eden (yes, I know
there's some canon indication she did go, but that makes no sense when you
consider her observed character). If she turns up, and discovers that the Riddel
from Another World has her claws into the Home World Dario, what would
her reaction be? There's only one Dario left, so which of them would get him?
Would Karsh attempt to console the loser?
Also, it would be interesting to see Karsh do more with the amnesiac Solt and
Peppor of Home World--restoring their memories and perhaps even teasing
out what happened at the Sea of Eden from them.
It might also be interesting to explore Dario's relationships with Garai and
Glenn more thoroughly--how did Garai feel about his sons? And who was
their mother?
g. Glenn: Glenn's relationships with Garai, Dario, and Riddel could use some
exploration. He may have an inadequate-second-son complex, and
I wouldn't be at all surprised if he also had an unrequited crush on Riddel.
h. Radius: We know a little bit about his relationship with Garai, but he must
have known Garai's sons (and Karsh, since he was always hanging out with
Dario), General Viper, and Riddel. Could he have been a fond uncle to Riddel?
How did he and Viper get along? If he saw "action on the continent", did he run
into Guile, Magus, Kid, any of the Porrean characters, or any of the Chrono
Trigger PCs there?
i. Steena: In one universe, she's a shaman's assistant, but in the other, she's a
full shaman herself. How did she accede to that position? Presumably, it
must have been a tragic turn of events . . . And why does she feel obliged
to take up Garai's legacy?
j. Norris, Luccia, and Grobyc: Again, this trio have related backstories--Grobyc
was created in Luccia's brother's lab, and Norris knew him, or at least of him,
at the time. Who was Grobyc before he became a cyborg (yeah, I know, he's
supposed to have been created in the lab, but . . .)? Maybe one of
Norris' men? Did Norris know Luccia's brother? There might even be a
potential for a romantic relationship somewhere in this mess . . .
There's also the whole Luccia/Marcy/Zelbess thing--what was going on there?
k. Zoah: Why does he constantly wear a helmet and SPEAK IN ALL CAPS?
Could he be disfigured by an old injury, or possibly deformed? Or a
demi-human who's trying to conceal his nature (requiring a daily body-shave)?
l. Fargo, Nikki, and Marcy: Another linked group. Again, the original game
does give us some backstory, but nothing is ever really done with the
relationship between Another World's Fargo and Nikki, and Marcy's
relationship to both is virtually ignored. Did either of the children
inherit any of their mother's non-human characteristics? How do they
feel about having been abandoned, and how does Fargo feel about
having had to do it? On a side note, what really happened between
Viper and Fargo?
m. Leena: She has some interesting potential. What are her feelings as
she tags along with Serge and sees him and Kid increasingly falling
for each other? Might she try to strike up a relationship with one
of the other eligible males in the group? Depending on who her new
romantic interest turned out to be, this could be either touching or comedic.
(Possibilities: Glenn, Guile, Norris, Pierre, Zoah? Or could she get sucked
in by Magus' mystique? Or become a Nikki groupie?)
And then there's Miguel. I mean, come on. If her missing father was
going to pop up in the story, there should have been some character
development for Leena with respect to him!
n. Miki: What is her relationship with Nikki? Brother-sister? Or maybe
she has a one-sided, unrequited romantic interest? Did they grow up
together? Nikki has to have been somewhere after Fargo left him . . .
o. Sprigg: She would know Magus--might she suspect something about
him?
p. Skelly: So how did he end up becoming an animated skeleton, anyway?
Magus' idea of a joke (or an experiment)? An accident with Luccia?
q. Leah: Okay, so, who *is* her father, and what happened to him?
r. Sneff: A middle-aged gambling addict . . . lots of scope for tragedy
there, although it would be of the mournful-country-and-western,
"My wife left me, and she took my truck and my dog--sure miss
that dog" variety. Could he have known Sprigg previously? Was
she the one who fed him that berry?
s. Pierre: *Why* does he want so badly to be a hero?
t. Orlha: Having the Tia/Orlha enigma actually *explained* would be
nice.
7. Music/Design Suggestions for the Magus Goes Berserk Ending
These have to be chosen to reflect the innate tragedy of both versions
of the ending.
For the battle: A good remix of "Sealed Door" from Chrono Trigger,
or, as a slight cop-out, "Prisoners of Fate", should be played.
Physically, it still takes place in the Darkness Beyond Time.
For the branch where Magus dies: "Girl who Stole the Stars" or (again)
"Prisoners of Fate" would probably be the most appropriate music.
(If we don't want to recycle something from CC, "Sora" from the
Escaflowne movie sountrack or "Dai Fuuin" from Utawarerumono
would also be workable, although I suppose they'd be difficult to
hack in.) Ideally, the credits should be rolled over an image of Schala
and chibi-Janus as they would have appeared during the old days of
Zeal.
For the branch where Magus wins and goes psychotic: The only
music I can think of that would be appropriate to this series of events
is the vocal portion of "Grace ~ Omega" from Jin-Roh: The Wolf
Brigade, which is enough to send shivers up my spine even though
I *collect* depressing music. It's about two-and-a-half minutes long,
but if more running time turns out to be necessary there should be a
way to blend it smoothly into the ~2 additional minutes of mostly-
violin instrumental at the end of the song. "Prisoners of Fate" would
sound like a weak cop-out by comparison, In My Arrogant Opinion.
The credits should be run over a static version of the Nadia's Bell
background, to symbolize history repeating itself at Magus' hands.
8. General Plot Stuff
The big problem with the original Cross plot is that information is
not provided early enough in small enough chunks. A Mysterious
Prologue AMV involving Serge and Schala might help a bit in this
regard. Have Harle make remarks about the dragons. Sprigg or
Luccia might know some relevant information, or Norris might
have accumulated some scraps while he was spying in Viper Manor
that only make sense in hindsight. Magus, even with his memory
fuzzed, would be invaluable for dropping hints. Kid might even
remember things Lucca had mentioned. Needless to say,
Schala's name *must* come up earlier in the game than it actually
does.
There are also large sections where there are no really strong
plot drivers. Having Dark Serge take over portions of the Archipelago
and hunt for Serge/Lynx might help for that part of the plot (there
would have to be some excuse why he didn't just off him after the
body-switch, though). There might also be bits where a hot pursuit
of Serge (or even "Norris the Traitor"?) by the Porreans might
help.
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A sidethought or two on the note of Magus and him joining up for Dual/Triple techs...
Magus/Kid Dual Tech: ThousandDaggers [RedPin/DarkMist]
Magus causes a cloud of darkness to descend upon the enemy party, leaving them entirely obscured from view and blind to the inevitable attack on their way; Kid pauses for just a moment, laughing ala the dream sequence at the beginning of the game, then fires off her RedPin tech - but the daggers are black instead of red. That'll get someone's attention, heh...
Magus/Kid/Serge Triple tech: OmegaFlare [DarkMatter/FlyingArrow/HotShot]
Kid charges up the HotShot machine, Magus starts up Dark Matter, and Serge readies the FlyingSwallow (a power up occurs if you have the Mastermune - Masa, Mune, and Doreen lend their aid). HotShot fires first from one angle, FlyingArrow comes in from above, and DarkMatter banishes them somewhere into the Darkness Beyond Time -just- as HotShot/FlyingArrow connect, trapping the enemies in the explosion caused by HotShot's ammo negatively reacting to FlyingArrow. Clearly, this would have to be the ultimate TripleTech. I guess it'd have to be Dark, but anyway, this would have to HURT.
...Anyway! Yes. @_@ Moving on...
"Unlike the other characters, Magus will not believe for an instant that Lynx-Serge is really Serge (wrong aura), and so catches up with the real Serge either while he's still in the Temporal Vortex, or shortly after he leaves."
I like this. I LIKE this. (I'm like, a sad Magus fanboy here, so this is killing me with how awesome it is. XD I'm serious.)
"Magus doesn't take Belthasar's meddling well, and probably has to be restrained from killing the old man (or not--offing the old bastard might actually be *good* for the Chronoverse)."
Ahahahaha! Now that's AWESOME. THAT'S the Magus I know and love. O_O Yeah! Heh heh.
"If she turns up, and discovers that the Riddel from Another World has her claws into the Home World Dario, what would her reaction be? There's only one Dario left, so which of them would get him? Would Karsh attempt to console the loser?"
@_@; My God. That's...yes, that's perfect. I like that. It would be -very- interesting to see hwo that works out, especially with Karsh there to ocmplicate things...
"Who was Grobyc before he became a cyborg (yeah, I know, he's supposed to have been created in the lab, but . . .)?" Cyborg does indeed at least hint at the possibility that he was once human (ala Robocop? XD Why the...nevermind that comparison, my point being, he may have been original human, not fully machine, and is merely -currently- half and half, not always having been...
"Orlha: Having the Tia/Orlha enigma actually *explained* would be nice."
I second this. I've always liked Orlha, so...
Overall, I'm personally quite impressed with the thought you've put into this. Sadly, all my thoughts have been focused on something along the lines of a hard-type hack (that I'll keep dreaming about, considering I highly doubt it'd be possible to implement certain things without, like, rebuidling the whole damn game from the ground up, sadly), not much focus on storyline. These ideas you have, though, this is awesome. I'm...impressed. I'm serious. (And not -entirely- because I'm a Magus fanboy, heh.)
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Will you think less of me if I admit that I'm also a rabid Magus fan? Seriously, though, one of the main reasons Guile is not convincing to me as Magus--even an amnesiac Magus ten or so years later--is his personality. Amnesia only blocks memories from the conscious mind, it doesn't erase them, and by my understanding it doesn't substantially alter personality, either. Guile isn't arrogant or aggressive enough to be Magus.
I'd dearly love to see this mess make it as far as a game, but from the looks of it, not enough is known about the internal structure of CC at this point for adding events to be possible, so it would very likely take years.
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Hey, personally, I'm like, happy to meet another Magus fan. And don't feel bad about the idea of putting all this into Chrono Cross being years off - I doubt everything I would want to change is do-able either.
Ahahahah... You should see some of my ideas... @_@ Look at Miguel:
"AI: AntiBlack on any two random targets not in that status AND NOT IMMUNE (only one is cast, if only one target is not in AntiBlack AND is not immune; or, if all are some combination of in AntiBlack or are immune, MeteorShower); Genius on self, StrongMinded on self; RecoverAll on self, Magnify, WeakMinded on a random target, Holy Dragon Sword on the previous target; TurnBlack on a random target, PhotonBeam on previous target, PhotonBeam on previous target (random retarget if target dead); HolyLight (on self), Holy Light. Return to start. 30% chance of inserting Attack x3-4 between any steps. When in near death: Ultra Nova (on self), Ultra Nova; Holy Dragon Sword on a random target, Holy Dragon Sword on a random target; HolyHealing, HolyHealing. Afterwards, return to the point in the AI where Miguel last left off; random Attack x3-4 will not occur untl Miguel returns to his normal AI. If Miguel ceases to be in near death at any point, then returns to near death at a later point, he goes through his near-death AI once again.
Absorbs White. Resists Blue.
Immune to all status changes, and all debuffs."
Frightened yet? @_@
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::Reads slowly:: Hmmm . . . Looks to me like your worst problem is going to be with the very first item on your AI list. I may be wrong, but I think I've only seen enemies in CC react to two stimuli: entering critical or being attacked with an Element of a specific colour. There may not be a routine in the game as it currently exists that would allow an enemy to react to PC status, or the lack thereof. The rest looks doable. (I don't think I'd like to fight that version of Miguel, though!)
I've been reading what documentation's been assembled so far on CC's guts, and . . . man. I used to think I was a pretty decent programmer, but I was never much into assembly language. I can sort of follow what ZeaLitY et al. are doing, but the chances of my making a useful contribution are slim. I guess I'll just sit here quietly in a corner and write scene scripts while I wait for them to finish. :)
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That Miguel sure is dangerous... I would fight it, no matter how difficult!
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Oh! I forgot to mention. Miguel also learned something from Dario...how to counterattack.
Holy Dragon Sword (Black); MeteorShower (all non-Black techs).
Having fun yet? @_@
(And don't get me started on how I'd rebuild Dario's countering plan...XD)
[And on that note, I gave...pretty much every boss in the game at least some (albeit limited for lower-end bosses, of course) means of countering a few things. XD ^_^; I have high hopes of one day, even if I must wait years, seeing these ideas get into a Chrono Cross hack. I'll give the CC fans the challenge they never got, first time around! O_O! They'll be despairingly humming the Wily Stage 1 theme from Mega Man 1 while crying about being hit by UltraNova AGAIN. Ahahahahahah! ..........Iiiii'm sorry, was I saying something?]
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I don't care, more difficulty is more fun to me. Well, at least in the Chrono games.
Besides, he will still be beatable, that's a fact that will never change. Though that way of behavior is best for a New Game+, since certainly one playing CC for the first time will find it nearly impossible to the point of giving up.
Actually, having the bosses with better AI in New Game+ (and stronger too) could be another thing I would change in CC.
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Oh, they'd definitely get boosted in NewGame Plus - but anyway, yeah, this idea for a hack would definitely be a challenge hack - not for the first timers. @_@ First timers would cry, facing my counter-inproved Dario. @_@
Speaking if NG+...
"All bosses have double Evasion, 99 Accuracy, and +4800 HP. [Exception: Ozzie, Slash, Flea.] Bosses get a further HP bonus equal to ([Party's Current Star Level]-48)x100. Bosses get a bonus to Strength, Vitality, Magic, and Spirit, equal to [Party's Current Star Level]/2, rounded up.
Basic Example: Mama Komodo, party at 48 Stars. HP: 4960. Strength: 37. Magic: 31. Vitality: 25. Spirit: 24. Evasion: 20. Accuracy: 99.
Basic Example 2: Miguel, party at 73 Stars. HP: 9250. Strength: 106. Magic: 57. Vitality: 92. Spirit: 51.
[Note that I'm not swearing to these figures as far as any knowledge of enemy stats in the base, unhacked game. It's more of just an idea of how Mama Komodo and Miguel might look, not the exact stats they'd be given.]
All instances of level 3 or less elements are replaced with their level 4 equivalent, for enemies and bosses.
Basic Example: Harle uses MeteorShower instead of Photon Beam."
Sound like fun? @_@
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If such a hack is made one day, I would definitely play it. A hard challenge, but one I would accept and aim to pass, no matter how long it may take.
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My kind of gamer. :D Heh heh. If I ever do get to make this hack, I shall try not to disappoint you... (Well, or anyone else playing it in hopes of a challenge for that matter.)
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I guess that makes me a wimp--I like the combat in my RPGs easy. :lol:
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Aww, don't feel bad! Just stick to Final Fantasy 7.
*shot*
I was kidding! @_@ I like FF7, dammit...which...has...nothing to do with easy battles or anything... >.>; *cough*
(Quite sadly, just to briefly note, I also have a lot of ideas for an FF7 hack - far more than Chrono Cross, which shames me a little, but at the same time it shows I have tons of imagination...or rather, tons of excess free time on my hands? XD)
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Both of the above? :lol:
Just to show how much of a wimp I am . . . I've never beat the Emerald or Ruby weapons in FF7. Too lazy to do the grinding required.
(Is it just me, or have we conspired to create a fair amount of thread drift here?)
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Take off ZOAH's helmet. I wanna see what he looks like.
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Not to mention put on some more clothing.
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He culd put an eye out, in cold weather!
Har har, I almost think I'm slightly funny...... >.>;
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One of my pet peeves is the naming system. You talk to Poshul and it tells you it's Poshul. Then, Poshul joins yer party and you can name her whatever within the six character limit. Same with a whole lot of other characters. Like Guile. He tells you his name is Guile, then you name him whatever. What I think would be cool is if they didn't tell you the name until after you got them or they were ungettable. Like after the Viper Manor thing, you can't get Guile to my knowledge. Then he can say he's Guile.
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No, it fits the theme that everyone's just Serge's whore (who himself is Leena's whore) that he can call them whatever he likes and they all eat it up...
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One of my pet peeves is the naming system. You talk to Poshul and it tells you it's Poshul. Then, Poshul joins yer party and you can name her whatever within the six character limit. Same with a whole lot of other characters. Like Guile. He tells you his name is Guile, then you name him whatever. What I think would be cool is if they didn't tell you the name until after you got them or they were ungettable. Like after the Viper Manor thing, you can't get Guile to my knowledge. Then he can say he's Guile.
Or do it like CT: Naming screen just before the first time the name is said.
Although I think it would make it like FFVI: You name person, and you know he/she will definitely join your party, no matter how apart the two events are.
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Although I think it would make it like FFVI: You name person, and you know he/she will definitely join your party, no matter how apart the two events are.
Like with Shadow? Heh.
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CC Imo was almost a perfect game, but ways to make it better:
1: remove the unnecessary characters, like Funguy, Turnip and Mojo. a list of 10 to 15 characters would have been fine.
2: Harle would either: Not leave, or rejoin your party later, without use of the CC.
3: Guile would have been Magus, still.
4: Change the so-called "Good Ending". I enjoy all of the other (serious) endings, including the bad one, more than that one.
5: Maybe a bit more backstory, and more in-depth explanation of the Rad Dreamers, rather than them just being some infamous "band of theives" that is mentioned once in the game.
6: More dual/triple techs.
I really never found any dual techs or triple techs on my own in the game
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More Trigger ppl...
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1: remove the unnecessary characters, like Funguy, Turnip and Mojo. a list of 10 to 15 characters would have been fine.
Why do you guys bother those characters. Most of them are optional, you can just leave them alone if you don't want to recruit them.
For a game has new game+, collectable elements are necessary.
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It's not like people start off playing the game with a list in front of them stating who they should or should not recruit due to bad or little character development/personality. It shouldn't be the gamer's responsibility to get the characters that don't suck...especially when this problem persists for over half of said cast.
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The only reason I got those characters intentionally was so I could fill my character list.
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On a semi-related note, what is the fewest number of characters you can have? I mean, if so many possible characters is annoying and you can avoid getting a crapload of 'em on your next playthrough, why not just avoid them altogether?
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On a semi-related note, what is the fewest number of characters you can have? I mean, if so many possible characters is annoying and you can avoid getting a crapload of 'em on your next playthrough, why not just avoid them altogether?
thats an interesting thought....
its kinda like a reverse 100%, or a speedrun, or something like that.
But a more interesting way and better way to put it would be what is the fewest number of annoying characters you can get =D
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Funny thing about Chrono Cross is, it doesn't matter who you have in your party. At any point in the game, you can have whoever your want as party members. Ofcourse you still need to have Serge/Lynx, and you can only pick out of the characters you recruited, but besides that it's entirely up to you. You don't even need Kid. There is no point in the game where you need to have her in the party to be able to beat the game.
Ofcourse, to do all sidequests and whatever, you still need specific characters, but for just beating the game you can pick whoever the hell you want. Characters that are necessary in cutscenes will automatically pop up if they're not in your party.
Anyway, what I would change about Cross? Make Serge talk. And make him have an attitude. Yeah, f*ck you Leena, go get your damn scales yourself.
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Funny thing about Chrono Cross is, it doesn't matter who you have in your party. At any point in the game, you can have whoever your want as party members. Ofcourse you still need to have Serge/Lynx, and you can only pick out of the characters you recruited, but besides that it's entirely up to you. You don't even need Kid. There is no point in the game where you need to have her in the party to be able to beat the game.
Ofcourse, to do all sidequests and whatever, you still need specific characters, but for just beating the game you can pick whoever the hell you want. Characters that are necessary in cutscenes will automatically pop up if they're not in your party.
Anyway, what I would change about Cross? Make Serge talk. And make him have an attitude. Yeah, f*ck you Leena, go get your damn scales yourself.
but then Dark Serge wouldn't be as interesting.
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Funny thing about Chrono Cross is, it doesn't matter who you have in your party. At any point in the game, you can have whoever your want as party members. Ofcourse you still need to have Serge/Lynx, and you can only pick out of the characters you recruited, but besides that it's entirely up to you.
Except for the time when you're Lynx where you can't have any of your previously recruited party members. I also found it impossible to recruit either Dario or the Sage of Marbule!
You don't even need Kid. There is no point in the game where you need to have her in the party to be able to beat the game.
I'm pretty sure she forces her way in your party during the infiltration of Viper Manor.
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I voted for other, as in, "How about some damn side quests?" And no, the 46 characters do not count.
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The Marbule concert is a side quest, as well as the search for Dario and the background of him and Karsh... there are a lot of smaller events that expand on the background and development of the characters, many of which are necessary to power up said characters (such as the giving of the replica sword to Pierre) There's so much in Chrono Cross that's optional... even the battle with the Criosphynx- although that's necessary to get the good ending.
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You've got Marbule, Dario, the Bend of Time and Criosphynx. The rest of them are related to getting one of the 46 characters or their level 7 techs.
The reason I don't include those is mainly because most of them entail getting the Another World and Home World versions to interact with each other, or going to X place of X world at X point in the game and interacting with X object there.
Ok, maybe it's not so much "side quests" as it is side dungeons or side bosses that I'm after. CT had plenty of them, and that's one of the things that made it as awesome as it was.
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You don't even need Kid. There is no point in the game where you need to have her in the party to be able to beat the game.
I'm pretty sure she forces her way in your party during the infiltration of Viper Manor.
She isnt forced ever , she just appears helps you out the prison and , appears three more times (Treasury,Elevator Hall,Vipers Room) after that you get to go to Guldove , where you can recruit her later on , but she is never actually required not even for her own lvl 7 tech .
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The battle system. I absolutely hate touching one monster, then being magically transported to an arena where there are three monsters! Active battles all the way. It's what I loved about Chrono Trigger. The battle system reminds me of a mesh between Zelda and FF.
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The battle system. I absolutely hate touching one monster, then being magically transported to an arena where there are three monsters! Active battles all the way. It's what I loved about Chrono Trigger. The battle system reminds me of a mesh between Zelda and FF.
How is it at all like Zelda? Unless you're referring to Zelda 2.
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I think Stanger's referring to the fact that there are monsters on the maps, ala Zelda, but that you find in an ATB like in Final Fantasy.
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AoL makes sense since on the map you encounter one enemy and then face hoards. I thought they could have done better on that as well...
There were too few forced battles and the ones that were didn't seem very creative (in CT, for example monsters would fall out of trees, get woken up by other monsters, etc...forced or accidental battles were interesting either way like that & it actually gave some character to even the little snot-nosed RPG monsters).
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How is it at all like Zelda? Unless you're referring to Zelda 2.
I mean what Truthordeal said. I enjoy how the enemies are all onscreen interacting with the environment, whereas in Golden Sun for example, I can be trying to find a lighthouse and be bombarded by those goddamn random battles with enemies that appear out of nowhere. The CE team talked about random encounters being easier to program and such... that may be the case, but I think its time for big developers to drop this style altogether. I really don't see how it benefits a game in any way. I think it only hurts its overall appeal, and the game becomes less engaging.
Fixed your quote tags.
~V_Translanka
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I think that sort of depends on the style of RPG. For level-grinders you want quick, easy access to battles, and thus random is the easiest way to accomplish that.
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With CC though, they pretty much eliminated level grinding through their leveling up system. So the non-random battles fit in well to its gameplay.
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Yeah, in the process they made battles that were boring and unnecessary. It almost felt like they were trying to pack the battle system to the gills so people might overlook that or something. I still miss the range-based Techs from CT...
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In all honesty, I would have ditched the "Universe" traveling concept and rebuild the story through the same time traveling lens we saw in CT.
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The battle system. I absolutely hate touching one monster, then being magically transported to an arena where there are three monsters! Active battles all the way. It's what I loved about Chrono Trigger. The battle system reminds me of a mesh between Zelda and FF.
to add to this, i'd have eliminated the battle music from both chrono games. make em more like seiken densetsu 3 was. battle1 is wack and hurricane's aight but i dont wanna hear it every time i get in a fight, knaamsayin? chrono cross got those chill beats i'd rather be listening to, like in that forest before the Viper Manor
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Fewer playable characters altogether was my vote. I think a little more than the CT cast is okey, but 43 is too much. Less PCs and more time for each one to get some attention, more interactions between the PCs. Something else I would like to change would be the end, too open. A game with such a complicated plot really needs a more conclusive ending IMO.
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I think I would change my vote to "more development time" to sort out the Magus situation and the plot resolution, "bring back Akira Toriyama" because I prefer simple exchangeable bad-assness to excessive flamboyant cuteness, "skip a generation(of video game systems)" because it shined on the PS1 but with some extra power it would have been bigger and arguably more beautiful, or "pull a zelda(have a second game after you beat the game)" to pop a few ct characters in or show a short teaser adventure in the ideal timeline.
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I'd say to make it harder; it would make what characters you pick more relevant, and you would have to develop genuine strategies for who you fight and how.
Another way that I think it could be improved would be to include more of the world than just the El Nido archipelago. To do that, it would obviously take a bigger machine, at least a PS2, if they were to expand and put as much detail into each place in the rest of the world as they did in El Nido. Imagine how it would be for a place like Truce or Medina to have the same varying areas as they did in Termina. Or, even better, the elaborate things they could do with Porre, and just how intricate they could be with whatever 'castle' place they have for Dalton to rule from.
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I really think the playables killed it. They sapped so much potential emotion and drama from the story and a lot of them are just a character design vehicle.
You can do huge casts well-- Suikoden does it. But in Suikoden's case, both the plot and gameplay integrate the huge cast beautifully, and that's just not the case with CC.
Also, wtf was with JRPGs in the PS1 era infodumping you huge amounts of needlessly obscure information in textbox form? I'm all for poetic allusiveness and esotericness, but show, don't tell is something CT does so well. Why did CC not learn this lesson?
Oh well. The music kicks ass.
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Oh well. The music kicks ass.
And the game looked lovely! :)
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Oh well. The music kicks ass.
And the game looked lovely! :)
I think we can all agree at those two points :wink: at least
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I actually thoroughly dislike the normal battle theme in Chrono Cross. I don't like it in Radical Dreamers either, mind you. In fact I like just about every song except that one. The only reason I bring it up is because it's the battle theme, it's the one you hear the most.
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I actually thoroughly dislike the normal battle theme in Chrono Cross. I don't like it in Radical Dreamers either, mind you. In fact I like just about every song except that one. The only reason I bring it up is because it's the battle theme, it's the one you hear the most.
Hmmm... does the music make you panic or...
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No it's the style. It's an odd time signature with the percussion, I prefer something a little more catchy if I have to hear it really often.
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aaah...I can't help with that, I don't know anything about music he he :P I'm very susceptible, enough repetition would invariably cause me to start liking it, eventually.
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I really think the playables killed it. They sapped so much potential emotion and drama from the story and a lot of them are just a character design vehicle.
You can do huge casts well-- Suikoden does it. But in Suikoden's case, both the plot and gameplay integrate the huge cast beautifully, and that's just not the case with CC.
Also, wtf was with JRPGs in the PS1 era infodumping you huge amounts of needlessly obscure information in textbox form? I'm all for poetic allusiveness and esotericness, but show, don't tell is something CT does so well. Why did CC not learn this lesson?
Oh well. The music kicks ass.
Yeah, you nailed it with the info dumping. The second half of the game is a storytelling disaster, because the pace is way, way too fast (plot/event wise), and, as you said, the dialogue an exposition aren't handled well, ramming too much down our throats, instead of handling it subtly.
Anyways, what Chrono Cross needs is an enhanced remake, preferably for the NGP and 3DS, with a full fledged grapical overhaul, like the Final Fantasy games on the DS. More importantly, though, is that the game needs to be finished. I'm of the opinion that the developers ran out of time with the original game, and couldn't get everything they wanted to in the game in a satisfying manner. That would explain the info dumping, convoluted plot, ridiculous pacing, and that rushed ending during the second half of Cross. If this game gets a remake, not a port, this would allow Kato and the other developers to fix the storytelling flaws, add the extras the CTDS has, and even add more dungeons, areas, and story arcs for some of the characters. Other than that, the game needs a faster battle system and better battle music.
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I'd honestly prefer a lesser cast. While there's a great variety, there's really no need for one in my opinion. It's not like if Guile loses all his HP in battle, you can't revive him and you have to get a different black innate. If it were like that, I could understand it. But as it stands, there's little development or reasoning for the people to join up with you, and most of them are either terrifying or annoying or both (I'm looking at you, NeoFio).
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There are many PCs that could have being better characters as NPCs. Not every character that is just a little important needs to be a PC. Think about CT, it works pretty well with only seven PCs, and yet the other characters are still very likable and popular (Schala!).
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Hmm, maybe temporary allies.
For example, Macha should leave right after you finished business with her boat, so does Korcha.
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There are many PCs that could have being better characters as NPCs. Not every character that is just a little important needs to be a PC. Think about CT, it works pretty well with only seven PCs, and yet the other characters are still very likable and popular (Schala!).
That's one thing I've never understood much, is why people are so in love with Schala. I honestly found her pitiful and almost as irritating as Dalton, who at least got a bit of redemption as being the funny butt monkey. If my own mother was putting me up to things that will end up getting me killed, I hate to say it, but I would at least try to run away if not outright kill the woman. Her loyalty to her mother was to the point of stupidity.
As for characters in Chrono Cross, yeah, there's way too many. It does make it a serious ego-stroking to have gotten them all, but still. Many of them would have been more interesting as NPCs than PCs. If they were to have made it a decently long game, like how they did with many of the Final Fantasy games at the time, it would have given them far more breathing room than the one-and-a-half that they gave.
Basically, the game as a whole just should have been longer, but time restraints can be ridiculous and irritating. I'd rather wait for twice as long to get something great than something that was very lack luster in comparison in a decent time frame.
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Why isn't this a multi-choice poll? Personally I would vote for "Increase difficulty" (let's face it, Cross is even more of a pushover than Trigger) and "Other" - "Other", in this case, being "Give it another 2 years in development", which I think would pretty much solve every major problem it has and help bring the things it does halfway-right to their fullest potential - specifically, make the game big and long enough to properly accommodate all the plot elements that ended up being crammed into the last couple hours.
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That's one thing I've never understood much, is why people are so in love with Schala. I honestly found her pitiful and almost as irritating as Dalton, who at least got a bit of redemption as being the funny butt monkey. If my own mother was putting me up to things that will end up getting me killed, I hate to say it, but I would at least try to run away if not outright kill the woman. Her loyalty to her mother was to the point of stupidity.
Obvious answer: It's cause she's friggin' hot. I mean, just look at her sexy pixels and huge bitmaps. Her raster would make any vector swell.
Serious answer: I think it has to do with her kind-hearted personality myself. She's weak-willed as all shit and somewhat responsible for the crap that happened of course, but she gives that feeling (for most people) of wanting to give her a damn hug anyway.
As for me, I can sympathize on a personal level, cause I know what it's like to want to wish that everything is just a bad dream, that things will work themselves out, how it feels to be so afraid to put even one foot forward, to buckle when backed into a corner.
I guess it's just a matter of differing opinions.
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That's one thing I've never understood much, is why people are so in love with Schala. I honestly found her pitiful and almost as irritating as Dalton, who at least got a bit of redemption as being the funny butt monkey. If my own mother was putting me up to things that will end up getting me killed, I hate to say it, but I would at least try to run away if not outright kill the woman. Her loyalty to her mother was to the point of stupidity.
I'm not a huge fan of Schala either, but I took her lack of standing up to her mother as the result of being psychologically traumatized. It's all very well and good to think that if we were in her shoes we would kick the Queen's ass, but things are never that simple. In terrible situations like that it's unfortunately very "normal" for people to just go along with what they're being told to do. I wrote about it briefly in another thread, so I'm just going to copy-pasta::
Maybe Schala's meekness came as a result of the Queen becoming ruthless and cruel. It's very psychologically probable. A person can only be harshly abused for so long before the abuse begins to completely alter them. It happens to strong-willed and weak-willed people alike. You become submissive in order to simply survive, because fighting back or resisting in any way could come with immense pain or even death. I could easily see Queen Zeal threatening Janus' life in order to keep Schala doing what she wanted her to do.
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I think that Schala was not only psychologically and emotionally exhausted, but also her magic was being depleted by the Mammon Machine, that probably left her very frail too.
I remember reading the theory that Schala's normal personality may have been more firey like Kid's, or at least more assertive, but the CT team met her after Queen Zeal's abuse was able to break her.
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And the fact that people tend to be more interested in scarce thing.
That is why so many people research the fate of Magus in Chrono Cross even though he never made an appearance. :?
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That is why so many people research the fate of Magus in Chrono Cross even though he never made an appearance. :?
That's because Magus has always been too popular for his own good :P
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Hmm, wrong example. Deleted.
:P
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That is why so many people research the fate of Magus in Chrono Cross even though he never made an appearance. :?
That's because Magus has always been too popular for his own good :P
^ This xD
Also the fact they cut Guile from being Magus from the game. There were just far too many characters that I personally feel they didn't know what to do with. If they cut them to 10-14 characters, tops, I think they would have had a more clear, concise story that would have had more involvement with the CT group.
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I voted for less characters, but I also think the plot could stand to be a lot more concise. Biggest change I can think of right now is just making the Frozen Flame and Dreamstone the same thing. There was plenty of set up for it in Trigger and RD, and you can even say that Dreamstone was sent down by Lavos, there was no need to be so convoluted and retcon-y (Ayla's brain is now the size of a walnut according to Cross) about it.
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I voted for less characters, but I also think the plot could stand to be a lot more concise. Biggest change I can think of right now is just making the Frozen Flame and Dreamstone the same thing. There was plenty of set up for it in Trigger and RD, and you can even say that Dreamstone was sent down by Lavos, there was no need to be so convoluted and retcon-y (Ayla's brain is now the size of a walnut according to Cross) about it.
Very good point. It could even be like there's a ( ...I want to say 'Bloomin Onion' but for the sake of making sense: ) "fruit" of Dreamstone, and the Frozen Flame is the pit.
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Dreamstone is also pretty versatile, as seen in all the stuff made with it, but it also probably can change over time...
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For me, I personally would give the game a total overhaul. First would be some more links to Chrono Trigger, as CC feels like a 3rd party game with some last minute translated words to link it to CT just to ride on its coat tails and sell some more copies.
The amount of playable characters, of course, too high. Their speeches seem canned at times, its like whoever wrote CT wrote out scripts on the basis of X event with Y character, whereas CC felt like they tossed in "good job person" all the time. You couldn't have a proper character interaction based on who you had...there would be ten thousand scripts. Think of the permutations!
And critically, cohesion. Not just with CT but with itself. There's so much left unknown, the only link to this game really was Radical Dreamers, its more like CC was a sequel to it and yet no one played it outside japan (and RD itself I found tedious, I finished it soley caise i love CT). Somewhere in the studio someone wrote a whole universe story and used most of it for CC. thats the feeling i get. like how futurama had the whole timeline theorized before making an episode. I feel like the guy who had the final say in CC looked at the WHOLE chronoverse and approved off on CC, leaving out one or two facts on the basis "it makes sense" yet WE didnt see it all so it doesnt make sense to us. Were you holding out for one more sequel? If so, make it! Kato, help us out here!
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Ugh, I accidentally hit the wrong option.
My vote was intended to be for too many playable characters and I LIKE playable characters. Due to the battle syatem, I can understand the need for a larger than usual cast, but after going through the game a few times to catch them all, I have not even played this game on over a decade.
Making the Chrono Cross a little more obvious to get would be a runner-up.
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Use Akira Toriyama's art.
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Use Akira Toriyama's art.
I think this is the best feature of the game: not having Akira's art avoids unfair comparison with Dragon Ball
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Without either Toriyama or a clone of his style, there is a distinct lack of visual cohesion between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. That makes it harder to treat the latter game as a sequel.
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^Agreed with Nangbaby
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Use Akira Toriyama's art.
I think this is the best feature of the game: not having Akira's art avoids unfair comparison with Dragon Ball
Doesn't really happen w/Dragon Quest at all...and to me the only time it really happened with CT was those lousy anime cut scenes (that Toriyama didn't even do) that randomly changed Crono's build to more match Goku (and don't get me started on what they did w/Glenn's awesome long hair!)...
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Another thought I had was that while CT gets widely confusing at parts but the end sort of solves it and brings it in (for the most part of its story), CC sorta leaves it confusing and open, beginning middle and end, like I'm not terribly sure what the whole plot is even now, I get the jist of what you do in the game but its left SO far wide open like its expected to have a hundred sequels and side projects.
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There should be multiple options for this as I would definitely check more than one box. Less playable characters, less info dump at the end, possible CT character involvement, all good options.
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I had 'the arguement' with someone. same age as me, tho i didnt play CT 2005, it was SO good it felt like i played it at age 8, thats how impactful it was.
I debated with someone who told me Chrono Cross was a better game and rated higher. I said you're wrong, every site rates CT higher all that jazz. The reiteration again, CT was original, CC was a sequel to a game we didnt get (radical dreamers) and felt like a generic RPG that tossed in CT words to sell more copies. The only good things for me (and this will change when i replay it, and then replay it again) were the music was good (cause it was right out of CT) and the FMVs were good for its age. But it was so lacking, you played it in a different mindset, the massive amount of characters was just filler. A mexican wrestler, I mean now you're just pandering. I understand that not every character is gonna hit ya the same way, CT had 7 characters, and even then you could argue they werent all pivotal if you played it the same way you played CC. But it could have been done differently. If the game had some better back story, if these people were legitimate friends...if the game were 200 hours long and was called "chrono trigger 8" or something, but it wasnt. The plot didnt tie in and was SO confusing. I for one tip my hat to Zeality and the crew for Crimson Echoes cause that game confused the shit out of me but I consider it probably my favorite game. CC sits somewhere below Final Fantasy 1 and Zelda 3.
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I have to agree with you 110%. I’m playing CC right now and I do enjoy it as a game but there are WAY too many recruitable characters and like you said, the story is a bit confusing. I also have to agree that the team of CE did a wonderful job of tying the 2 games together.
I do enjoy CC, but I think of it more of a spin-off than an actual sequel.
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I'll have to respectfully disagree. I think that Cross in itself is a wonderful game, but is also a fantastic squeal. Let me preempt this by saying I generally have a hate/hate relationship with sequels.
Most of the time games/stories are written without the knowledge that they are going to have a sequel, so they write fairly complete/epic adventures with (sometimes) open endings. Because of this, we almost always end up with games that feature strong casts with some kind of god-like villain that's out to destroy the universe with ultimate power. The heroic main cast then pulls out all the stops and barely destroys the god-villain sometimes by sacrificing themselves - which is all fine. Then the game sells well and everyone cries for a squeal. The dev team now has to figure out how to create an even badder god-villain (that never existed in the old game) with an even more powerful ultimate power that threatens to bring an even worse ultimate destruction. Our band of heros now have to pull together even HARDER then before and pull out even more (all the) stops, sacrifice something even greater then the everything they did last time in order to one up the ultimate adventure story from before.
I call this the Marvel Syndrome. Point being, in my opinion Trigger had one of those amazing stories that you really cant continue with the main cast without it being completely lack-luster or absolutely ridiculous. I think stepping away from the main cast and introducing a new location with a new crew was brilliant. Then, they embark on a much smaller (in the beginning) personal adventure which grows and intertwines with Trigger in such a mind blowing way. I think it's the best kind of squeal, and really one of the only types that works for these kinds of stories. Unless a game plans to be a series, and incorporates an overarching story which develops over the course of several games I don't think they work.
Now, my big complaint with Cross is while I think the way they tied the two worlds (and games) together is brilliant, it wasn't executed very well. They spent a lot of time building the world, story, and lore in Cross, but then ran out of time, space, money (or whatever it was) at the end and just crammed a bunch of information into the last 3rd/ending of the game. I think Cross would have greatly benefited from being split into two parts, which would allow for a lot of story and character elements to be fleshed out. This also would have given the devs some room to expand the game world...possibly going as for to allow you to venture outside of El Nido. (Though I'm not sure how you would do this story wise.) It also could have allowed for even more of a tie into Triggers world/story.
Just some thoughts. If you can't tell I'm a big Cross fan. :D
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... They spent a lot of time building the world, story, and lore in Cross, but then ran out of time, space, money (or whatever it was) at the end and just crammed a bunch of information into the last 3rd/ending of the game. I think Cross would have greatly benefited from being split into two parts, which would allow for a lot of story and character elements to be fleshed out. This also would have given the devs some room to expand the game world...possibly going as for to allow you to venture outside of El Nido. (Though I'm not sure how you would do this story wise.) It also could have allowed for even more of a tie into Triggers world/story.
Xenosaga had the exact same problem. Both games have stellar first discs, but by the time the second disc comes around, there's a need for explaining events that ends up being shoed in and leaves things sort of confusing. Several other SNES and PSX RPGs got the same treatment in the late 1990's, which is unfortunate and I think holds them back from being true masterpieces by today standards.
I could have totally seen a "part 1" taking place in El Nido, while a "part 2" opens up the rest of the world. They could have treated them as a new series, a la Trails of the Sky or something (where one game opens up things for the next set up). This is something I'd never even considered before.
I do think Chrono Cross was a proper escalation, if that makes sense. The Dreamer Devourer felt like a more cosmic threat, although I wish the game had done more to explain the how/why the Dream Devourer was such a threat.
My biggest complaint with Cross ties into the above plot-dumps, but also the fact that we have some unseen event in which post-Chrono Cross Schala "Kid" Zeal travels back in time and ends up being the individual who saves Serge. This is hinted at is so frustratingly vague. More frustrating, to me, than the entire "Balthasar did everything as part of Project Kid" deus ex machina.
But yeah, I freaking love Chrono Cross regardless. Amazing game.
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The best way to improve Chrono Cross would be to remove Korcha entirely. Failing that, include an option to burn him alive. Slowly.
But seriously, I agree with the infodump thing. The game hits you with these absolutely massive walls of text which you can only read a few lines at a time. By the time you get to the end you've forgotten the beginning, but you can't read it again without replaying everything since your last save. That makes the plot seem even more convoluted than it already is. I think the game just needs a few more hours, a few more dungeons, to reveal the backstory organically. Show, don't tell.
Like Boo, I also have a nitpick with how Kid is destined to go back in time and save Serge from drowning, but for a different reason. Since that event obviously happened / will happen (otherwise there would be no Serge and no Home World), it means your quest to destroy the Time Devourer is destined to succeed, because there exists a future for her to go back from. This runs counter to Chrono Trigger's "no predestination" theme. If the series ran on predestination, then your second visit to 2300 AD should have shown a happy future, since you're obviously going to get around to beating Lavos at some point.
My last gripe is how vague the ending is. I know Kato wanted it to be a "draw your own conclusions" kind of thing, but there simply isn't enough information to draw any conclusion at all. Which aspect of each world will be kept in the merged timeline? Did Serge forget his whole adventure or didn't he? Did Schala and Kid merge into a single entity? What was all that business about inseminating planets and creating new universes? Give us something to work with!
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Xenosaga had the exact same problem. Both games have stellar first discs, but by the time the second disc comes around, there's a need for explaining events that ends up being shoed in and leaves things sort of confusing. Several other SNES and PSX RPGs got the same treatment in the late 1990's, which is unfortunate and I think holds them back from being true masterpieces by today standards.
I've been playing through the Xenosaga series, and can confirm this...The last 1/4 of the game is pretty convoluted. I need to get back to it.
I could have totally seen a "part 1" taking place in El Nido, while a "part 2" opens up the rest of the world. They could have treated them as a new series, a la Trails of the Sky or something (where one game opens up things for the next set up). This is something I'd never even considered before.
It could be really interesting to see a series of stories that take place in the Chrono universe that take place over several games. It would also be really cool to see all of those stories line up for a grand finale with each other. Kind of like an allstar cast.
I do think Chrono Cross was a proper escalation, if that makes sense. The Dreamer Devourer felt like a more cosmic threat, although I wish the game had done more to explain the how/why the Dream Devourer was such a threat.
My biggest complaint with Cross ties into the above plot-dumps, but also the fact that we have some unseen event in which post-Chrono Cross Schala "Kid" Zeal travels back in time and ends up being the individual who saves Serge. This is hinted at is so frustratingly vague. More frustrating, to me, than the entire "Balthasar did everything as part of Project Kid" deus ex machina.
But yeah, I freaking love Chrono Cross regardless. Amazing game.
Totally agreed. It's greatest short coming was easily in the plot dumps at the end of the game and post DD. The true ending for Cross was always a huge disappointment. We're left with 15 minuets of epilogue that trys to cover huge swaths of story, but only vaguely eludes to any sort of resolution. I enjoyed some of the other optional endings a lot more, like Kid becoming General Kid. Those felt plausible, and were somewhat satisfying as a resolution. They really needed one more disc, or perhaps one more full game to properly tell Cross's story.
If it were possible to take the original dev team and dev kit and remake/add to Cross with a new release I would really interested in what they came up with. Sadly any sort of remake/addition/new game will likely be some kind of ARPG bullcrap with a shell of a story wrapped up in a high production budget. Of course, they could always surprise me. Octopath was a welcome surprise for us old guys that still love turn based RPGs.
The best way to improve Chrono Cross would be to remove Korcha entirely. Failing that, include an option to burn him alive. Slowly.
:twisted: Korcha...haha that dude always pissed me off. Though there is something nice about having a character that you love to hate. I also appreciated the fact that he was always the odd man out, and never seemed to gel with the group. Kind of like they tolerated him for his boat, but otherwise he could shove off.
My last gripe is how vague the ending is. I know Kato wanted it to be a "draw your own conclusions" kind of thing, but there simply isn't enough information to draw any conclusion at all. Which aspect of each world will be kept in the merged timeline? Did Serge forget his whole adventure or didn't he? Did Schala and Kid merge into a single entity? What was all that business about inseminating planets and creating new universes? Give us something to work with!
100% agree! (see above rant) I have to believe that the ending, like the last 1/4 of the game, has to be a product of budget or time. It just feels so incredibly rushed/lazy. Even if he wanted it to be vague there could have been a way better execution. I guess I understand the motivation, the approach just seemed last minute.
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If it were possible to take the original dev team and dev kit and remake/add to Cross with a new release I would really interested in what they came up with. Sadly any sort of remake/addition/new game will likely be some kind of ARPG bullcrap with a shell of a story wrapped up in a high production budget. Of course, they could always surprise me. Octopath was a welcome surprise for us old guys that still love turn based RPGs.
Interesting enough, in about 2008 we were heavily researching Chrono Cross hacking. There's a proof of concept in that allows you to replace Guile with Magus or Magil (for the Radical Dreamers purists), and the mods include new portraits, character models, dialogue, and manipulated techs. We weren't at a point to which we could create new events, though.
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/418/
Here's a few videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0aIPhJptI0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TG0r25AhkU
We had also completely rewritten Chrono Cross as a hack called "Chrono Cross: The Darkness Beyond Time," which was yet another interpretation of Chrono Cross with a branching storyline, a smaller cast, some major plot changes, and the return of most of the Chrono Trigger cast.
We also had written a prologue, which we hoped to release as a small, independent minihack, that took place in 1015AD after the fall of Guardia. It followed Magil, Crono, and several other character trying to stop Porre's world-conquering machine in what I think was the Another World timeline.
A few caveats about what I remember:
-Crono was a main character in the prologue minihack that took place after the Fall of Guardia, in 1015AD. He was a resistance leader and was now living with a false name 'Conor.' It ended with Crono being killed by Garai while stopping Porre's big bad evil machine, but the Home World timeline version of Crono never died and was eventually recruitable in one of the branching storylines (or it may have been all of them) at the Dead Sea.
-Marle, after the events of the prologue, would have infiltrated Porre and risen the ranks of the Black Wind unit. She would have changed her named to Delia. She had an outfit like Norris' and would have eventually been revealed to have infiltrated Porre to take them out from the inside. She would have largely replaced Norris' role in helping get the Hydra Humour for Kid. She was fully modeled and ready for insertion into the game, actually.
-Robo would have been a playable character replaying Grobyc. I don't remember details, though.
-Ayla would have been part of a new, now-mandatory adventure at Gaea's Navel and would have been a mandatory character replacing Leah. She was fully modeled and ready for insertion.
-Lucca was also planned to be a playable character, and she was also fully modeled and ready for insertion. It was revealed that she had died in one timeline but survived in another, and she would have replaced Luccia as a scientist with relation to Viper Manor. I can't remember the details, though.
-Magus would have been a playable character and would have, obviously, replaced Guile. He was also the main star of the 1015AD prologue.
-Somehow human Glenn from 600AD was recruitable, but I can't recall how we explained it. I remember we had him and Glenn from 1020AD would have both had incredible double techs, though.
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Sorry for the double post, but I found some of my old work on the project.
Here was the logo I designed!
Then there was a promotional poster.
Goddammit, I wish all that work hadn't been purged when Kajar Labs was shutdown in 2009. Fuck. How depressing that we lost momentum.
When we released that we simply didn't have the hacking tools ready to tackle Chrono Cross yet, we set it aside and began work on a new SNES hack.
The entire storyline was going to take place after 600AD and feature a new cast of characters and a soul-absorbing madman. The main character, Wittel, was Cyrus' illegitimate child and would have had him teaming up with a colorful cast, the only returning character being Frog (although Slash and Flea joined up). We did some proof of concept and character models, and we fully mapped out the story, but we never got into actually hacking it before the closure of Kajar Labs.
We tried migrating to a new forum (Verve Fanworks), but we lost all momentum and a lot of people didn't make the move away from the Chrono Compendium. Since we weren't all at a centralized location, there was no new blood and work trickled out and died.
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You know I really wish I was around back then. Totally would've continued with this to help finish/polish/continue the Cross storyline as it definitely needed something else
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Yeah, we definitely needed doers. That's the problem with fangames - lots of people for idea generation, but not a lot of people will executable skillsets.
Even me -- I'm not a coder (much). I can write (and love to), but realized I didn't have any helpful skills beyond that, so I learned spriting and some texture manipulation. Even that's not the same as actually event coding.
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FIXING CHRONO CROSS
*Remove the Time/Dream Devourer*
99% of the game has nothing to do with this alternate form of Lavos. Not until after the defeat of the BBEG, the Dragon God, are we even told of her existence, afterwhich the only thing left to do is fight her. The Time/Dream Devourer can safely be removed without affecting the rest of the story.
What about Schala? Radical Dreamers explains her situation very simply.
Long ago, in a far off kingdom, lived a girl. Because of her power, the kingdom
had come to an end, crumbling under its own weight. Many became engulfed in the
temporal vortex that was created, never to be heard from again...
...But not the girl. She lived on, enduring a much sadder fate... Running from
her past and fearing her future, she wanted nothing more than to be swallowed
up in the surging waves of the vortex of time...
Hating what she'd done, refusing what she'd said or heard, to simply continue
living was her curse. But the stone, It had other plans for her...Turning back
the hands of her clock, scattering her memories, she was granted another
chance. Since the precious stone was in her possession, she carried with her
all its will and power. And so, she was born into this era, returning to
reality as a mere infant...
No more daughter-clone confusion. Kid simply is Schala, and she regains her previous life's memories from the Frozen Flame.
The lack of a Dream Devourer also means Magus isn't mind-wiped at the end of Chrono Trigger DS to become Guile, allowing him a much stronger role in the story, whatever that may be. Most likely reprising his role as Magil.
*Let Kid die*
Yep. Let her die by the hands of Lynx at Fort Dragonia. Not only does this make thematic sense with the rest of the game, it is also a point of character growth for Serge. That his choices have consequences, and that things are out of his control. Keep in mind, Kid "dies" very soon after Serge saves her from poisoning. What kind of effects does this have on the poor boy? Waving all this away, with magical deus ex machina powers that Schala's pendant never had, is poor writing.
Afterall, there is a second Kid in Home World whom is never mentioned. After inadvertently meeting with or searching for this version of Kid, Serge could be set on a path of making things right. And this could be done in Lynx's body! Imagine the interactions between characters here.
*Tell Serge about Wazuki*
Info dumps bad. Worse is when key information about characters is withheld to the point that it's now worthless. When little Crono tells us that Lynx is Wazuki, all emotion that that revelations has is gone. We're way past the point in the game for us to really care. It would be much better for someone with closer relations to both Wazuki and Serge--say, Miguel?--to reveal that information, and at much more pertinent time. If Miguel tells Serge this information at the Dead Sea, it's much more impactful and emotional, and sets up the next immediate quest: Infiltrate Chronopolis and put a stop to your old man.
I have more ideas, but I'll get to them later.
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Kodokami....you just...just...blew my mind! I love this, I think these additions/subtractions would absolutely enhance the story, and make a way more compelling narrative, all without really changing core elements of Cross's story.
Man...this really bums me out that we may never see anything like this.
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Thanks, CptOvaltine! And those words you used, "make a way more compelling narrative", I think that's more accurate with what I'm trying to say here. There are many game mechanics in Cross that could be improved or "fixed", but I'm more interested in the story.
*Complete Harle's character arc*
Chrono Cross has an incredible subversion in its story that I think is criminally overlooked/overshadowed. Throughout most of the game, we hear stories of the Dragons: Great gods who sealed an evil flame away and restored peace to the land. We are led to believe that the Dragons are the good guys, even being rescued by one and given their blessings. Yet that's all subverted the moment we defeat FATE and the Dragons reunite into their true self to seek vengeance on behalf of the planet. The planet vs the "spawn" of Lavos--again, subverting what is seen in Chrono Trigger. As a sequel, this is what I want to see!
It's the classic man vs nature, and we see it again and again in Cross--the dwarves, the hydra, the demi-humans. Yet, in the end, nothing is truly resolved. The Dragon God is defeated. Immediately, the Devourer becomes the focal point, a heretofore unforeseen threat, and all meaningful resolution of the man vs nature conflict is lost. Time is even reset, and while that could suggest a gift of second chances, it feels hollow.
Ideally, the Chrono Cross item should have been designed for use against the Dragon God as a proper resolution to the story's conflict. The dungeon of Terra Tower even sets us up for this! The game can still keep the same endings: Defeat the God in combat, and the resolution is unsatisfactory; you stopped the threat but didn't solve it. Use the Chrono Cross, however--an item of all six elements, of combined love and hate, a literal bridge between worlds--and true understanding is reached.
And who better to fill the role of Schala and give the end-of-game dialogue than Harle? A Dragon herself, yet one shown to be in constant turmoil. Born into both a human world and a Dragon one, she silently battles her role as a Dragon emissary and her budding affection for Serge. Harle should be the bridge that settles the conflict. And all the Dragons have a relic; why can't hers be the Chrono Cross?
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Well, those changes are certainly bold.
Hmm, I don't think I posted much here, and it was years ago, so... well, can't say I'd change much. Probably standard things like reducing the number of PC's. Though personally, I would still keep them around as NPC's. I feel that the big cast gives life to El Nido, their prescence and the stuff you can do with them. So yeah, I'd keep it all. So you would still do stuff like finding Skelly's bones, or challenging Janice at the Grand Slam. Big difference would be that instead of joining the party, they'd give some other kind of reward. If applicable, some would simply be temporary party members, like Korcha is during the Save Kid path.
One big change I'd do, however, is regarding the party reset after Fort Dragonia. I never liked that you lost your party members, and couldn't get them back after quite a long while. More so when the ones that become aware of the switch (if they were in the party during the Lynx boss battle) still don't rejoin for one reason or another. For certain things, it's a big loss of potential. Imagine what Glenn would say when confronting Garai, or seeing the Home!Dragoons frozen in the Dead Sea, incluiding himself. Or a big one, Leena having to fight against Miguel. Yet because they can't be in the party at the time, we never see what could've happened.
So what I'd do, is to avoid the party reset. Ideally, everybody would still be around, banished with Serge to the Dimensional Vortex. Though perhaps it'd be too much, even with a reduced PC cast. At the very least, it'd be the party members present to be banished with Serge. So up to two at most, one at least if Kid was in the party. With the reduced cast, it becomes manageable for all the possible conversations that could happen depending on party combinations.
As for what else... hmm, I'll get you back on this.
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Thanks, CptOvaltine! And those words you used, "make a way more compelling narrative", I think that's more accurate with what I'm trying to say here. There are many game mechanics in Cross that could be improved or "fixed", but I'm more interested in the story.
*Complete Harle's character arc*
Chrono Cross has an incredible subversion in its story that I think is criminally overlooked/overshadowed. Throughout most of the game, we hear stories of the Dragons: Great gods who sealed an evil flame away and restored peace to the land. We are led to believe that the Dragons are the good guys, even being rescued by one and given their blessings. Yet that's all subverted the moment we defeat FATE and the Dragons reunite into their true self to seek vengeance on behalf of the planet. The planet vs the "spawn" of Lavos--again, subverting what is seen in Chrono Trigger. As a sequel, this is what I want to see!
It's the classic man vs nature, and we see it again and again in Cross--the dwarves, the hydra, the demi-humans. Yet, in the end, nothing is truly resolved. The Dragon God is defeated. Immediately, the Devourer becomes the focal point, a heretofore unforeseen threat, and all meaningful resolution of the man vs nature conflict is lost. Time is even reset, and while that could suggest a gift of second chances, it feels hollow.
Ideally, the Chrono Cross item should have been designed for use against the Dragon God as a proper resolution to the story's conflict. The dungeon of Terra Tower even sets us up for this! The game can still keep the same endings: Defeat the God in combat, and the resolution is unsatisfactory; you stopped the threat but didn't solve it. Use the Chrono Cross, however--an item of all six elements, of combined love and hate, a literal bridge between worlds--and true understanding is reached.
And who better to fill the role of Schala and give the end-of-game dialogue than Harle? A Dragon herself, yet one shown to be in constant turmoil. Born into both a human world and a Dragon one, she silently battles her role as a Dragon emissary and her budding affection for Serge. Harle should be the bridge that settles the conflict. And all the Dragons have a relic; why can't hers be the Chrono Cross?
Sure, there are ways to balance the combat, or make the elements actually relevant in battle beyond activating the Chrono Cross...but I'm with you. Both Trigger and Cross are beloved games (to me anyway) because of fantastic stories. The game play is a second for me, which I know is not always the popular opinion.
I love the idea of completing Harle's story, and can totally see your point about her being a catalyst for the resolution of the dragons vs humans. Honestly, I felt the whole man vs nature element of Cross was poorly executed. Yes you have a few repeated elements where they try to drive that home with the Dwarfs, but honestly, if that's going to play a larger part in the story then you as a player need to see the effect of that conflict IN the story...more so then just the Hydra Marshes.
I also agree that having the Chrono Cross be the resolution for the Dragons would have been ideal. the way the game plays sets the Dragons up as the big bad guy, twists included. It's kind of an odd moment when you realize there's another element to the story that just comes out of nowhere, for almost no other reason then to link Cross to Trigger. As much as I love Cross, I've never loved the ending, and would love to see an ending that doesn't plot dump for 10 minuets after the game ends, and is also more relevant to the struggles you encounter on your journey to the end.
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@Acacia Sgt: I like that idea with the characters. I've personally never had a problem with how many characters there are, but cutting down the number of party members makes sense. Especially since so many of them could simply be side quest, like you said.
Oh man, imagining a confrontation between Leena and her father... Why didn't they do that?
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Hot damn, those enhancements, Kodokami, are great. Things I would have never considered.
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Less party members. 45 is just... :picardno
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Chrono Cross for me is a brilliant game, and I love it just as much as Trigger for its own reasons. It does have its flaws, but I really would not change too much overall.
One change I would make is providing a clearer picture of what happened to Crono and Marle after the Fall of Guardia. It is still left ambiguous and while they appear to be dead in Home World, it is suggested they are alive in Another World. However there are no hints to what happened to them after the fall outside of ambiguous factors here and there that leave room open for a lot of speculation. Ambiguous nature is not bad by default, but it was handled wrong in this case. The fall being added with little post context kind of limits what is possible and what isn't.
Another change I would make is better pacing. Instead of info dumps at 3 points of the game, the largest of which on disk 2, there should have been more consistent explanation with decent hints being strewn about. The hunt for the Dragon Gods is a perfect example where the plot just stops, just to have the rest dumped on you later on. That would be a great place to add some context to the overarching plot IMO.
As for a bigger change, maybe a smaller cast with more character development. Focus on Guile having a stronger connection to Janus aside from the retcon of a retcon added to Chrono Trigger DS. Norris, Fargo, and the Dragoons is all we really needed for the second half (aside from Harle for a brief time) and make Serge, Kid, Glenn, and Guile the main cast for the first half. Have a stronger reunion after Serge gets his body back as well for FK sake!
But aside from that, I would leave it as is and only tie up loose ends that need to be. It was the first Chrono game I ever played, and led me to Chrono Trigger. Even as is, it holds a special place in my heart.
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I think the story's too depressing, so I will add some cute comic relief characters.