Chrono Compendium
Bend of Time - Inactive Projects => Special Event Polling => Topic started by: maggiekarp on September 07, 2007, 06:26:26 pm
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Just in case you missed a poll or weren't able to add anything to an opinion because of a closed poll, this thread's for you!
I'll add some unpopular opinions in a while, but for now, I'd like some other folks to post!
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I didn't get a chance to really do Grobyc, so I'll just post it in here then...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/8/87/Grobycart.png)
Character Design - Grobyc's design screams coolness & attitude (see the belts?!)...whether or not that's a good thing, is debatable...But I think overall it looks pretty cool...I wouldn't mind seeing why he wears that scarf/mask though...Is it just a speaker under there or something?
Combat Usefulness - He uses gloves too...how boring, but for a cyborg, I guess that makes enough sense. He's got a variation of Robo's Rocket Fist Tech, which is nice...though weird because in his version he just shoots his fist and magically has another one pop outta nowhere...Maybe they should have left the chain or something...His other Tech has him turn his hair into a giant LASER!!! That's pretty freakin sweet. And then his other one has him use a giant laser cannon arm, which is pretty cool, too, I guess.
Tilt Factor - There's some minor development about how he's an experiment of Luccia's brother who died or something, but it's easily overlooked (as most of the minor development for any of the characters is)...But basically, we don't know much, probably because there's just not much TO know...His name is Cyborg backwards and the fact that a lot of people didn't realize that was pretty cool. I also use him in Magness, but I just make him Luccia's brother...I should probably change that or something...>_>
Final Grade - C
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KID
(in b4 flames)
Character Design - Oh wow, a scrawny teenage blonde with exposed midriff and attitude? She just oozes originality! And other bizarre things, I'm sure. But really, I could stand Kid's outfit if it wasn't so much worse than it could have been. In RD her outfit was almost a palette-swap of Lucca's, and Kato's art for her had her dressed more modestly than Schala. Such an outfit doesn't really fit her CC incarnation, especially considering Magus wasn't around to make her tart down. It would have been awesome if they stuck with this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/maggiekarp/kidgood-1.jpg)
but they decided to give us this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/maggiekarp/kidurhh.jpg)
Furthermore, she was extremely likable in RD, but CC actually rewards you if you choose to ignore her/completely screw her over. This game made me want to leave her ass, while RD made me genuinely sad everytime something bad happened to the girl. This may just be because Serge was more... talkative and openly fond of Kid in RD. They seem more like "decent friends" at best, here.
(Now, I'm comparing CC to RD a lot here, and I know they aren't the same game, but it says something pretty bad about a game as beautiful and well-selling as CC that it's not quite as good as its made-for-satellaview, text-based predecessor. Story and character development-wise, of course. That's almost like a direct-to-video sequel being better than a theatrical release.)
Combat Usefulness - I had her in my party every time she was available to me, thinking it would reflect in the story somehow, but it seemed the only times she was mentioned it was sickness or brainwashing. She wasn't too shabby.
Tilt - Seems like I hate the ever-loving crap out of this chica, don't it? THIS IS NOT REALLY THE CASE! After all the bad shit is said, she's a charming character, and I'd like to see more of her. She's a wonderful counterpart to the hopelessly tragic Schala, one of few not entirely mopey female main characters in the RPG world, and probably my third favorite character in the Chrono series after Magus and Marle, but CC really didn't do her justice. Also, her rating thread disgusted me. It was one big reminder of the "lalala I can't hear you Cross was the best game ever" and "HEY LET'S BE JERKS TO THE GUY WITH THE DIFFERENT OPINION" attitude that seems to be strangling this place. She gets a...
C
[edit] More to come, later!
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But that happens in every thread Zaperking posts in. When he's not doing it here, he's in the analysis forums posting about how Schala is an interdimensional perfect goddess-being with consummate kindness and purity, or how Harle is a mythic princess or something, each capable of changing time as they see fit, each wonderful tragic round characters. Then he came and debased Kid for showing skin, as if it somehow soils Schala's perfection. I can't take fanboyism of female characters like that. It just makes me want to cry tears of disgust.
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But that happens in every thread Zaperking posts in. When he's not doing it here, he's in the analysis forums posting about how Schala is an interdimensional perfect goddess-being with consummate kindness and purity, or how Harle is a mythic princess or something, each capable of changing time as they see fit
Sounds more like that ProjectR guy to me.
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Ahh... Should probably have lurked moar, then. But still, even after all his bashing, he gave her a B. Seems like a silly thing to reopen a thread over :P
As for skankitude sullying Schala, seems to me that the point of Kid was that she was so unlike Schala despite supposedly being a de-aged version. I really don't mind some skimpyness, especially in games, but I'm more concerned with the fact that she looks like a twig with implants, and the front of her skirt doesn't really exist. But that's all opinion, heh.
The grade stands.
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Ahh... Should probably have lurked moar, then. But still, even after all his bashing, he gave her a B. Seems like a silly thing to reopen a thread over :P
You can blame me for that one. I was just tired of Zaperking and his fallacious--in my eyes--view of the Chrono series. You should have seen him and me arguing for pages over whether a Planet could survive a Lavoid Attack.
As for skankitude sullying Schala, seems to me that the point of Kid was that she was so unlike Schala despite supposedly being a de-aged version. I really don't mind some skimpyness, especially in games, but I'm more concerned with the fact that she looks like a twig with implants, and the front of her skirt doesn't really exist. But that's all opinion, heh.
Being a genetic clone of a person does not make them a full out and out copy unless they either have a copied set of that person's mind--which is probably not very easy to do since even a clone is going to have a slightly different brain structure due to deviations that occur during growth from environmental factors--or are raised in an identical manner to the original, and even there they can differ.
Kid is Kid. She is not Schala. She possess Schala's DNA, but beyond that, they are not the same person at all. Kid was raised in an entirely different manner.
Besides, I'm willing to bet you that Kid uses her appearance as a weapon just like everything else. She's a very crafty, devious person and will use any means necessary, including her appearance. It would fit her character to do that sort of thing.
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Although I don't think Yuuki needed to draw nipples or a mons in his gift pieces to Kato, though.
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Although I don't think Yuuki needed to draw nipples or a mons in his gift pieces to Kato, though.
No, it wasn't necessary, I'll agree with that.
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Although I don't think Yuuki needed to draw nipples or a mons in his gift pieces to Kato, though.
Maybe Yuuki thought Kato was a lonely old man. A lonely, lonely old man.
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Um...well, I missed the Glenn poll, so...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/72/Glennart.png)
Design: Lovely design, even it if it is slightly based on Glenn of CT. He's even got a cool battle scar.
Combat: I always used him as often as possible, being one of my favorite characters in the whole game. One Einlanzer was nice, but two? Wicked. He could kick some unholy arse in battle.
Tilt: I think he's really cool, and have thought that since the first time I played the game. In fact, on my very first playthrough, when I realized that I'd missed the opportunity to acquire him (because I chose to save Kid) I restarted the whole game again. To me, he's the character that I always wanted to know more about, even though the game didn't provide a lot. And then there is his awesome fortune that he receives in Termina:
[Fortune Teller]
If I were to equate you
to something, you would be
the moon.
[Glenn:]
Moon...?
[Fortune Teller]
Yes, the moon.
The moon only shines when
there is a sun to reflect.
The moon does not glow with
its own light...
But remember this!
The moon's light is a guidepost
to those that search in
the darkness of the night.
A time will come when you will
carry out such a role...
Sometime in the near future.
In my opinion, easily the most awesome fortune EVER.
I can't help it, the guy is just my favorite character in the game. I know I'm biased, but I give him an A.
Final Grade: A
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We should pick an arbitrary cut-off number for Cross's optimal party size, like 10, and note it in the feature (all characters below the threshold are better off as NPCs). Or, we could host another poll where users have to vote "yes" or "no" on all characters concerning whether they should be playable.
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We should pick an arbitrary cut-off number for Cross's optimal party size, like 10, and note it in the feature (all characters below the threshold are better off as NPCs). Or, we could host another poll where users have to vote "yes" or "no" on all characters concerning whether they should be playable.
What would be the point of doing that? I really fail to see any real value in it, other than the fact that it would make a statement to Cross bashers everywhere that this site endorses that sort of opinion towards the game. Honestly, I thought that this site was supposed to be unbiased towards any of the games tha make up the Chrono Series.
Doing that sort of thing, even the polls about everyone voting wether what characters everyone they themselves deem worthy of being considered playable, would be absoluteley pointless.
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No, see, Dankun, there's senseless Chrono Cross bashing, and then there's sensible criticism. One of the flaws of Chrono Cross was it's huge number of characters...no one character--apart from Kid--could ever really get any sort of focus, and that seriously huge number of characters also contributed to the other sensible criticism, the pacing of the plot.
You may have noticed that I've been mentioning here and there in my reviews about a coveted "Stay a PC" list of mine, which I'm forming based on my idea of a redone Chrono Cross plot to be more Trigger like in the sense of its pacing and its focus on the primary characters, to give the fantastic things about Cross a true chance to shine when they might have been a little muddled. The idea isn't to insult Cross in the way bashers do--who only use the extra characters and the muddled pacing as more fuel for their hatred--but to give Chrono fans a chance to fix, as it were, the few problems in the game.
All that said, I'm not sure a poll is the best way to go about it just yet, as it might turn into a popularity contest rather than a serious discussion of sensible characters to keep and characters to discard as PCs, and I don't want to see that at all.
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I think after all of the character polls are done all of them should be reopened...It'd be nice to see if the average grades stood the test of time...
Plus, this should be done for the CT characters as well...
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I really hate the idea of "fixing" such a masterpiece as Chrono Cross. That's like trying to fix the Mona Lisa because you didn't like the colors Da Vinci used or trying to fix Beethoven's Eroica Symphony because the French Horn enters too early or the whole piece is too long...
Yeah, I didn't like all of the characters, but I wouldn't dare presume to remake or "fix" the game.
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If some thing is wrong that can be fix why not? It is just a delicate business not to ruin every thing good about it.
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I don't think it's our place as fans. The game is masterpiece that we could never have come up with ourselves. Who are we to pick and choose what we did and didn't like about it and make some kind of 2.0 version?
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I really hate the idea of "fixing" such a masterpiece as Chrono Cross. That's like trying to fix the Mona Lisa because you didn't like the colors Da Vinci used or trying to fix Beethoven's Eroica Symphony because the French Horn enters too early or the whole piece is too long...
Yeah, I didn't like all of the characters, but I wouldn't dare presume to remake or "fix" the game.
Plenty of people HAVE changed those things, but mostly it was to fit their own style...A remake of a video game will not change the original video game. If you think that the original is better than the remake, you're still more than welcome to play the original video game, BECAUSE IT'LL STILL BE THERE!!!
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While I don't really consider CC a masterpiece on par with the god damn Mona Lisa, even sacred arts can be criticized. It doesn't change the game since it's already finished, but it tells people who do fanart, fanfics, or fangames what sort of thing the fans themselves liked and would like to see incorporated.
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If you think that the original is better than the remake, you're still more than welcome to play the original video game, BECAUSE IT'LL STILL BE THERE!!!
Which is why it's silly of me to argue this. But for silly argument's sake- I still think it's a bit presumptuous to present a remake as "the fixed version". Maybe we're not disagreeing and I'm just bothered by the wording (semantics)
While I don't really consider CC a masterpiece on par with the god damn Mona Lisa
I do. Chrono Cross has certainly had a bigger impact on my life than the Mona Lisa.
even sacred arts can be criticized.
Criticized, perhaps. But fixed?
It doesn't change the game since it's already finished, but it tells people who do fanart, fanfics, or fangames what sort of thing the fans themselves liked and would like to see incorporated.
It's the motivation behind this incorporation that I'm bringing into question... it's really none of my business though, since I'm not having a hand in it. Just expressing myself, that's all.
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I really hate the idea of "fixing" such a masterpiece as Chrono Cross. That's like trying to fix the Mona Lisa because you didn't like the colors Da Vinci used or trying to fix Beethoven's Eroica Symphony because the French Horn enters too early or the whole piece is too long...
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah, I didn't like all of the characters, but I wouldn't dare presume to remake or "fix" the game.
I would. But if I did, I would do so in such a way that it would truly homage the original one as much as I could possibly manage. Obviously it would have to be redone in some form of a 2D RPG, most likely one of the RPG Maker programs out there. And it would definately HAVE to include every single character in the game in some form of sprite renditiion.
If you think that the original is better than the remake, you're still more than welcome to play the original video game, BECAUSE IT'LL STILL BE THERE!!!
Which is why it's silly of me to argue this. But for silly argument's sake- I still think it's a bit presumptuous to present a remake as "the fixed version". Maybe we're not disagreeing and I'm just bothered by the wording (semantics)
The most beautiful thing, in my opinion, would be to see a remake of the game, exactly as the game is right now, where nothing of the story would be changed and all the characters would be kept.
While I don't really consider CC a masterpiece on par with the god damn Mona Lisa
I do. Chrono Cross has certainly had a bigger impact on my life than the Mona Lisa.
Amen to that. I really don't think that there are better words to express just exactly how great that game truly is. Well, I'm sure there are, but I can't think of any at the moment.
even sacred arts can be criticized.
Criticized, perhaps. But fixed?
Couldn't agree more with you. There should be more fans in this communtiy like you.
It doesn't change the game since it's already finished, but it tells people who do fanart, fanfics, or fangames what sort of thing the fans themselves liked and would like to see incorporated.
Oh, but it does in fact, very much changes the game, when you are removing more than half of the entire cast in the game. Wether or not they were involved in the game's plot, makes no difference whatsoever.
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I would. But if I did, I would do in such a way that it would truly homage the original one as much as I could possibly manage. Obviously it would have to be redone in some form a 2D RPG, most likely one of the RPG Maker programs out there. And it would defeninately HAVE to include every single character in the game in some form of sprite renditiion.
Cool. I'm not condemning remakes, I'm speaking out against the idea of one-upping the original.
Amen to that. I really don't think that there are better words to express just exactly how great that game truly is. Well, I'm sure there are, but I can't think of any at the moment.
It's an epic romance- a game made for radical dreamers everywhere. The colorful characters, the vibrant world, the breathtaking music... all of these elements come together to create an experience that is truly remarkable. The battle system is innovative, the cinematics glow.... everything about the game just shines.
these unnecessary characters that people want to get rid of- as I said, I don't like them all. But they're part of that world and part of the experience. Who are we to throw them away?
Couldn't agree more with you. There should be more fans in this communtiy like you.
Thank you.
Oh, but it does in fact, very much changes the game, when you are removing more than half of the entire cast in the game. Wether or not they were involved in the game's plot, makes no difference whatsoever.
Yes. Besides, who reads fanfics anyway? (kidding...)
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Oh, yeah, I don't think they should be called the "fixed version"...but if Kato wants to fix things and call it fixed, who am I to argue? If Kato wants to change the story somewhat to better fit his original ideas or whatever, get rid of characters (or just move them to the side) or maybe even EXPAND on the development of the characters and call it Chrono Cross Version 2.0, then I'm all for it and then some.
I'd change Beethoven's Eroica Symphony if he happened to put in a 2-hour kazoo solo...and I'd like to think he'd agree.
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Hopefully, Kato will start work on a new Chrono game before he remakes one of the existing games.
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Oh, yeah, I don't think they should be called the "fixed version"...but if Kato wants to fix things and call it fixed, who am I to argue? If Kato wants to change the story somewhat to better fit his original ideas or whatever, get rid of characters (or just move them to the side) or maybe even EXPAND on the development of the characters and call it Chrono Cross Version 2.0, then I'm all for it and then some.
I'd change Beethoven's Eroica Symphony if he happened to put in a 2-hour kazoo solo...and I'd like to think he'd agree.
No. I would very much doubt that this will ever como to pass. The very idea of the mastermind behind Cross wanting to change his most beautiful masterpiece to date just makes me want to..... I don't even want to finish that sentence.
Besides, this completely ignores the fact that Square Enix contiues to refuse to pay any attention to the Chrono series at all.
If Cross were to ever get a remake (which I very much doubt the possibility of, save for maybe a PSP release), make no mistake that the game would still include every single character in the game. They have no reason to remove them, so why would they even bother destroying their own work?
Hopefully, Kato will start work on a new Chrono game before he remakes one of the existing games.
Yes. With any luck, Square Enix will ignore all possibilites of a remake of their previous works and finally decide to give us the coveted third (and final?) game in the series.
Who cares about official remakes? Seriously.
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(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/c/c3/Kidart2.png)
Design: Cute, yet badass. Commanding, yet sensitive. Stylish, yet powerful. Some may say the outfit is skanky. But I have a hard time thinking of Kid as a skank, so to me it's just fashionable.
Battle: She has the only thief ability for a good portion of the game. Solid, well rounded in battle.
Tilt: Kid is beautiful. She's a piece of a star that fell from the sky. She's strong, pure-hearted, compassionate, brave, bold, charmingly blunt, and very stylish. She's the kind of woman I could fall in love with and probably my favorite character from any videogame.
A
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/f/f6/Karshart.png)
Design: I definitely get a little bit of a disco-fever vibe from the outfit- but Karsh pulls it off. Because it's really the man that makes the clothes. I dig the hair, and the badass scowl.
Battle: Solid character- comparable to Glenn until Glenn gets the twin Einlanzers. Which is stupid. Karsh should be able to dual-wield Rainbow Axes or something... 'cause he's way cooler than Glenn #2.
Tilt: Karsh has a lot in common with Kid, so obviously I like him a lot. He carries a terrible secret on his shoulders but doesn't let it diminish his resolve to fight. Sure, he's misguided- but who wasn't? CC's plot's so convoluted that everyone got confused... Karsh could afford to question his orders a bit, but his strong sense of loyalty is a bit endearing. Under his rough exterior, he's got a heart of gold.
A
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/72/Glennart.png)
Design: Good-looking young swordsman, reminiscent of his namesake
Battle: Probably the strongest fighter in the game once he gets that second sword... Great dual tech with Serge.
Tilt: He's a good guy. He listens to Riddel and searches for the truth regardless of what others do. In this sense, I like him more than Karsh- While Glenn's certainly a loyal person, he still questions suspicious orders and searches for the right course. However, aside from being a standup guy, he doesn't really have a whole lot of personality. Really, he's kind of bland and lacks the dimensions of his namesake.
B
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Kid is beautiful. She's a piece of a star that fell from the sky. She's strong, pure-hearted, compassionate, brave, bold, charmingly blunt, and very stylish. She's the kind of woman I could fall in love with and probably my favorite character from any videogame.
Aha, thanks for putting that into words for me.
Solid character- comparable to Glenn until Glenn gets the twin Einlanzers. Which is stupid. Karsh should be able to dual-wield Rainbow Axes or something... 'cause he's way cooler than Glenn #2.
Ditto. Glenn is like Hitsugaya...sort of neurotic, with no real backstory to give him an impetus.
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Oh, yeah, I don't think they should be called the "fixed version"...but if Kato wants to fix things and call it fixed, who am I to argue? If Kato wants to change the story somewhat to better fit his original ideas or whatever, get rid of characters (or just move them to the side) or maybe even EXPAND on the development of the characters and call it Chrono Cross Version 2.0, then I'm all for it and then some.
I'd change Beethoven's Eroica Symphony if he happened to put in a 2-hour kazoo solo...and I'd like to think he'd agree.
No. I would very much doubt that this will ever como to pass. The very idea of the mastermind behind Cross wanting to change his most beautiful masterpiece to date just makes me want to..... I don't even want to finish that sentence.
Besides, this completely ignores the fact that Square Enix contiues to refuse to pay any attention to the Chrono series at all.
If Cross were to ever get a remake (which I very much doubt the possibility of, save for maybe a PSP release), make no mistake that the game would still include every single character in the game. They have no reason to remove them, so why would they even bother destroying their own work?
1) Like I said, you can't destroy the original; it'll always be there! and 2) He fixed things in the storyline of Chrono Cross for the NA release, so obviously even to him, it wasn't perfect...who's to say that things couldn't be changed to make it better?
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1) Like I said, you can't destroy the original; it'll always be there! and 2) He fixed things in the storyline of Chrono Cross for the NA release, so obviously even to him, it wasn't perfect...who's to say that things couldn't be changed to make it better?
1) Fair enough. I still don't like the idea of another 'version' of Cross ever being put out there, even if it is fan-made, in which all of these so called 'nothing' characters would be thrown away.
2) We don't know what he changed in the NA release, while Richard Honeywood was translating the game. Most likely, we will probably never find out this information, if only for the mere thechnical problems that this would imply. But I would gather, that he most likely just wanted to clarify a few bits and pieces that were left way too confusing in the japanese version of the game.
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So... let me get this straight. There is a fan-edit of CC being made that only includes the characters that are deemed "good enough" by the community? Whatever floats their boats, I say. I think it's a horrible idea and I would never play it, but if that's what they want to do, let them.
A huge factor in my love for Chrono Cross is the freedom that I have to make any character I want seem important to the plot if I choose to. When I play, Poshul is a main character. When others play, she might not be in the story at all. Such is the beauty of Chrono Cross... You can play it however you want, unlike other RPG's, where you are forced to use certain characters and play a certain way. In Chrono Cross, your gameplay experience is tailored by YOU, and to take that away is to ruin the essence of the game.
But whatever, do as you wish. I just think it's a disastrous idea if I've ever heard one. I don't see the point in making a less flexible and variable version of a masterpiece of a game, just to cater to the minimalists and CT fanboys.
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No, there's no fan edit or anything. This was just an idea to impose an arbitrary, symbolic cut-off in the future poll ranking feature. Sort of like, only the top ten remain playable. But in hindsight it's not very fair or in taste for the article.
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So... let me get this straight. There is a fan-edit of CC being made that only includes the characters that are deemed "good enough" by the community? Whatever floats their boats, I say. I think it's a horrible idea and I would never play it, but if that's what they want to do, let them.
Yes, so sorry for the confusion. I guess my last post in this thread can lend itself to misinterpretation. I agree with you wholeheartedly, you see. All I was trying to say is that if there ever was such project, I would very much be disgusted by its mere existence. Not that there was one already being made. My concern is that perhaps, one day someone may actually try and pull this off, seeing as how there are way too many chrono fanboys out there in the community and so many means for them to be able to accomplish such a thing (RPG Maker programs).
A huge factor in my love for Chrono Cross is the freedom that I have to make any character I want seem important to the plot if I choose to. When I play, Poshul is a main character. When others play, she might not be in the story at all. Such is the beauty of Chrono Cross... You can play it however you want, unlike other RPG's, where you are forced to use certain characters and play a certain way. In Chrono Cross, your gameplay experience is tailored by YOU, and to take that away is to ruin the essence of the game.
Quoted for truth.
Personally, I like almost all of the characters and I don't really dislike any of them.
But whatever, do as you wish. I just think it's a disastrous idea if I've ever heard one. I don't see the point in making a less flexible and variable version of a masterpiece of a game, just to cater to the minimalists and CT fanboys.
I just hope that such a project will never materialize into existence. So that we will never have to worry about it.
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If you want freedom of choice with your characters, go play a game that allows you to create characters. There are plenty of good ones out there.
RPGs in the style of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are not meant to be games where you have that sort of control over characters. That's not how they work. They're supposed to be purely about the story with the characters highly involved in every little aspect, and as such the game suffers from having so many characters, because the ones that did truly matter suffered greatly, and for what? NeoFio? Funguy? Mojo? Come on!
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Just because you put Poshule or Turnip or NeoFio in your party, the fact that people argue about is that they STILL DON'T GET ENOUGH CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! I hate to do it because people will say, "Oh, you're just a Trigger fan, your reasons aren't valid because you're comparing the sequal to the original game!", BUT, in Chrono Trigger, if you put Ayla or Magus or Robo (admittedly each ten times the characters that the previous three are) into your party, they each GET MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! If you go to the trouble of putting a character in your party, they should have unique dialogue to set them apart from the pack and add something to the overall experience of the game. That is the only real fault I see in Chrono Cross, but I believe it to be such a big one that I've always said that GameSpot's 10.0 is bunk.
I don't think I agree completely with Kyronea though. RPGs can have casts that allow you to change the party and still have good development. Trigger & FFVI are good examples (SRPGs also do this, but normally suffer Character Development).
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True, but usually the casts are small enough that all will get a reasonable amount of character development...around seven or eight is usually good enough.
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RPGs in the style of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are not meant to be games where you have that sort of control over characters. That's not how they work. They're supposed to be purely about the story with the characters highly involved in every little aspect, and as such the game suffers from having so many characters, because the ones that did truly matter suffered greatly, and for what? NeoFio? Funguy? Mojo? Come on!
According to what? Is there some kind of RPG god that sets all of these rules? The fact that games like Chrono Cross and Suikoden exist totally disproves your point. Chrono Cross does not = Final Fantasy, and it doesn't = Chrono Trigger, either. Character development was apparently not meant to be very important in this game, or else there would have been more of it. It was a different type of RPG from Trigger, that focused more on variety and freedom of choice, and it worked for what it was. The fact that every character didn't have 30 hours of backstory didn't stop of it from being hailed by critics and fans as one of the best RPG's ever.
If you want freedom of choice with your characters, go play a game that allows you to create characters. There are plenty of good ones out there.
If you want to play an RPG with a small and invariable cast, than Cross probably isn't your game - but there are plenty of good Chrono fangames out there. Or, you can try Final Fantasy. You're basically telling me 'screw off and play something else if you don't like it', but that applies much more to you in this situation, since you're the one complaining.
Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping.
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You're basically telling me 'screw off and play something else if you don't like it', but that applies much more to you in this situation, since you're the one complaining.
That is not what he saying at all. If you what a game plaed your way, then play Fallout or an Elder Scroll, but normally they lack all the detail thats found in games like Star ocean, Chrono Trigger, or a Finial Fantasy, they in turn lack the customization that non-linear games have. Chrono cross was vary much on the linear side of the RPG spectrum but lacked much of the development that is normally found in the field.
Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping.
This is just the kind of fanboyism that I absolutely hate, Chrono Cross is amazingly good ,but it is in no way perfect. No game I have ever play can be called perfect(except M.U.L.E. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.) but thats not a game it's an experience) there is always something that can be fixed. So knock it off you don't win. If there is anything I have learned here it is that at the compendium nothing is undebatable.
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Please quote the exact part of my post, where I said, specifically, that Cross is perfect, and then we'll talk. I defended the parts of the game that were being criticized (and wrongfully so) by pointing out that Cross is a game that was never intended to focus on character development. If you want character development, you're looking in the wrong place with Cross. CC is more open-ended and less in-depth than Trigger on purpose - this was not a mistake on the developers part, and I think it's safe to say that it worked for most people. So the idea of 44 PC's in a game didn't appeal you in particular? Boo-hoo, let's all complain about it incessantly nearly 10 years after the game's release.
And yes, I do win, because in the end, all of your whining will be in vain since it's not going to change a damn thing about the game.
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That is not what he saying at all.
I believe that was what he was trying to say or something to that effect. Although I don't know if it was a comment specifically directed at him.
If you what a game plaed your way, then play Fallout or an Elder Scroll, but normally they lack all the detail thats found in games like Star ocean, Chrono Trigger, or a Finial Fantasy, they in turn lack the customization that non-linear games have.
First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.
Second, customization is available for many of these other games that you mention not to have any.
Chrono cross was vary much on the linear side of the RPG spectrum but lacked much of the development that is normally found in the field.
Chrono Cross is by no means your 'linear', avarage, and normal role playing game. It didn't lack character development. It simply wasn't emphasized on a particular cast of characters, so that the player could actually choose what his party would consist of without loosing out on anything else that other characters may bring to the table.
Also of note, is the fact that even though it wasn't its focus (because it would be idiotic for anyone to believe that it was, and that it was an overlooked characteristic of the game by its creators), the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.
Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping.
I will continue to do very same thing. I just don't understand why some people have so many personal issues with this game.
This is just the kind of fanboyism that I absolutely hate, Chrono Cross is amazingly good ,but it is in no way perfect. No game I have ever play can be called perfect(except M.U.L.E. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.) but thats not a game it's an experience) there is always something that can be fixed. So knock it off you don't win. If there is anything I have learned here it is that at the compendium nothing is undebatable.
It's not fanboyism. What you're doing by comparing it to all these other role playing games is. And if there ever was a game that not only should, but in effect is considered perfect, it's Chrono Cross.
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Well, I wouldn't say it's perfect. I agree with everything you said other than that. Please, quoting me and then calling the game perfect is not helping my argument.
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First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.
What? So Oblivion doesn't simply kick ass? Fore shame.
the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.
The main factor is that the "some" is so close to NONE that it hardly matters...and I'd call foul on that "most" as well...but I suppose "some" is vague enough to compromise...
First and foremost, it's an RPG. A role playing game. If it doesn't have clearly defined characters, what's the point? A good story is key to a good RPG, but without good characters you're left with a slowly moving plot that's hard to care much for. Reasons are more important than actions.
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First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.
Second, customization is available for many of these other games that you mention not to have any.
You have got to be kidding some of the best RPG's are for the PC, Elder Scroll are great rpgs, and Fallout is by far one for the best games ever. How is this in any anyway a lame, pathetic, cheapskates? I would Like you try and dis on Ultima.
Also of note, is the fact that even though it wasn't its focus (because it would be idiotic for anyone to believe that it was, and that it was an overlooked characteristic of the game by its creators), the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.
Character development is what bridges the gap from the player to the story. Chrono cross had an epic story, It was vary cinematic, but that was its flaw it was like watching a movie or reading a book. Unlike Chrono trigger were I felt attached to the story. How was that there point? A game with no attachment, I doubt that was on there drawing bored.
It's not fanboyism. What you're doing by comparing it to all these other role playing games is. And if there ever was a game that not only should, but in effect is considered perfect, it's Chrono Cross.
Its not perfect in what way can you see it as so!?!
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Well, I wouldn't say it's perfect. I agree with everything you said other than that. Please, quoting me and then calling the game perfect is not helping my argument.
Well yes, sorry about that.
A little help defending it, would be much appreciated. I don't think it's a'perfect' game either, just the closest game (RPG) to being perfect I've ever encountered. And it also happens to be one of the very few games that has recieved a perfect score.
What? So Oblivion doesn't simply kick ass? Fore shame.
Let's not deviate from the topic at hand. You and the others were comparing the game to the RPG's for the PC.
Cross has nothing to do with those.
The main factor is that the "some" is so close to NONE that it hardly matters...and I'd call foul on that "most" as well...but I suppose "some" is vague enough to compromise...
Okay, then let's put everything into perspective. Since you all seem to fail to realize the key aspect that the game creators decidedly choose for the game's characters.
Let's use the characters that you offered as examples, for both games.
Poshul, Turnip and NeoFio for Cross, and Ayla, Magus and Robo for Triigger. Just do a simple comparison between their backstories, using the encyclopedia. You'll be shocked by the results.
First and foremost, it's an RPG. A role playing game. If it doesn't have clearly defined characters, what's the point? A good story is key to a good RPG, but without good characters you're left with a slowly moving plot that's hard to care much for. Reasons are more important than actions.
Cross doesn't have clearly defined characters?
Than what about: Kid, Serge, Harle, Lynx, Norris, Karsh, Nikki, Fargo, Viper, Radius, Riddel, Marcy, Leena, Razzly, Sprigg, Glenn, Starky, etc...?
That's at least 17 characters that are very much well developed.
If you don't call that having clearly defined characters, I don't know what you will.
You have got to be kidding some of the best RPG's are for the PC, Elder Scroll are great rpgs, and Fallout is by far one for the best games ever. How is this in any anyway a lame, pathetic, cheapskates? I would Like you try and dis on Ultima.
Thery're still just FPS in disguise. I never really cared much for the Ultimas series either.
Character development is what bridges the gap from the player to the story. Chrono cross had an epic story, It was vary cinematic, but that was its flaw it was like watching a movie or reading a book. Unlike Chrono trigger were I felt attached to the story. How was that there point? A game with no attachment, I doubt that was on there drawing bored.
No argument there. Character development is a must for any real Role Playing Game. And I agree with the rest of your statement too, except for the last part. But I think you're starting to get my point.
Its not perfect in what way can you see it as so!?!
Read this quote and try to disagree with any of its parts.
It's an epic romance- a game made for radical dreamers everywhere. The colorful characters, the vibrant world, the breathtaking music... all of these elements come together to create an experience that is truly remarkable. The battle system is innovative, the cinematics glow.... everything about the game just shines.
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Cross doesn't have clearly defined characters?
Than what about: Kid, Serge, Harle, Lynx, Norris, Karsh, Nikki, Fargo, Viper, Radius, Riddel, Marcy, Leena, Razzly, Sprigg, Glenn, Starky, etc...?
That's at least 17 characters that are very much well developed.
If you don't call that having clearly defined characters, I don't know what you will.
17 out of 40-something is not exactly awesome, dude. And half of the ones you listed are debatable.
[edit] Also, if CC is the best RPG you've come across, then you haven't played a lot of RPGs. The American translated-in-a-month version of FF6 was better for its time than CC, character-development and (arguably) plot wise.
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Let's not deviate from the topic at hand. You and the others were comparing the game to the RPG's for the PC.
Cross has nothing to do with those.
You're kidding, right? 1) I don't think any of this at all is the topic at hand, 2) who cares what system the RPG the comparison is being made of is on? does that somehow make it any less of an RPG?, & 3) I wasn't making a comparison at all, I was simply arguing the fact that PC RPGs kick just as much ass as console RPGs.
Poshul, Turnip and NeoFio for Cross, and Ayla, Magus and Robo for Triigger. Just do a simple comparison between their backstories, using the encyclopedia. You'll be shocked by the results.
As I've said before and I'll no doubt say again: A BACKSTORY DOES NOT MAKE THE ENTIRETY OF CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! Not only that, but if NeoFio & Poshul actually have a backstory outside of them just being there, I WILL be shocked. The fact is that Ayla, Magus, and Robo all actually SHOW character. They are individuals each with their own outstanding personalities. We gleen this through their various actions, interactions and dialogs.
Cross doesn't have clearly defined characters?
Than what about: Kid, Serge, Harle, Lynx, Norris, Karsh, Nikki, Fargo, Viper, Radius, Riddel, Marcy, Leena, Razzly, Sprigg, Glenn, Starky, etc...?
That's at least 17 characters that are very much well developed.
If you don't call that having clearly defined characters, I don't know what you will.
17 out of 40-something is not exactly awesome, dude. And half of the ones you listed are debatable.
Quoted for emphasis...I'd say more than half are debatable myself because you say 'WELL developed' and 'clearly defined"...of which, I'd only put Kid and Harle...oh, and LYNX IS THE ANTAGONIST! We're talking about the playable characters...But I'll allow it...though it's actually FATE...
Thery're still just FPS in disguise. I never really cared much for the Ultimas series either.
Since when is the Diablo series or Fallout series a "FPS in disguise"??? And Oblivion is far from "just a FPS in disguise"...By your logic I bet you call Phantasy Star "just a FPS in disguise"...*eye roll emoticon*
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(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/d/de/Guileart.png)
Design: A classy, elegant costume. The mask adds an air of mystery, naturally. Perfect for a magician (and certainly more appealing than Sneff's presentation)
Battle: Very good. Second strongest magic attack stat, I believe- and by end game he has the most high level grid slots.
Tilt: Guile has a lot of style, charm, and grace. The lack of any real development or story hurts him quite a bit though. He still manages to barely get a
B
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While I was a bit more impressed with Turnip after reading his entry, Poshul's and NeoFio's don't shed any new light
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Poshul.html
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You're kidding, right? 1) I don't think any of this at all is the topic at hand, 2) who cares what system the RPG the comparison is being made of is on? does that somehow make it any less of an RPG?, & 3) I wasn't making a comparison at all, I was simply arguing the fact that PC RPGs kick just as much ass as console RPGs.
You're the one who's kidding.
1) Have you read the topic of this thread?
2) It DOES matter, because computer RPG's are for the most part other types of games (like FPS or RTS games) in disguise.
3) I know that you didn't make the comparison between them, but other people were.
As I've said before and I'll no doubt say again: A BACKSTORY DOES NOT MAKE THE ENTIRETY OF CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! Not only that, but if NeoFio & Poshul actually have a backstory outside of them just being there, I WILL be shocked. The fact is that Ayla, Magus, and Robo all actually SHOW character. They are individuals each with their own outstanding personalities. We gleen this through their various actions, interactions and dialogs.
Okay, so if backstory isn't exactly the most important thing in character development... what other elements would you consider that are most important? Having your own personal music theme? Having double and triple techs with other characters?
You say that they actually show character through their actions, but in what form is this different than the actions that Cross' characters perform? They still just follow around the main character of the game and basically just do everything in the same way that another character would, with a somewhat different line.
Your whole point is based on the fact that Cross' characters aren't deveoloped just because they don't say different things? The whole point of that, which you completely ignored in my previous posts, was so that you could play with whatever cast of characters you chose. Also, the localization team that worked on Cross did a wonderful job in precisely doing just that . By giving them their special accents, which you apparently decidedly choose to ignore based only on the fact that you don't like them.
17 out of 40-something is not exactly awesome, dude. And half of the ones you listed are debatable.
Quoted for emphasis...I'd say more than half are debatable myself because you say 'WELL developed' and 'clearly defined"...of which, I'd only put Kid and Harle...oh, and LYNX IS THE ANTAGONIST! We're talking about the playable characters...But I'll allow it...though it's actually FATE...
Again.... debatable on what gounds? That you persnoally don't like most of them? The characters that were listed all have a fairly decent amount of characterization. And I even neglected to mention a few others that also get some development, like: Zappa, Korcha, Irenes, Mel, Luccia, Grobyc and Zoah.
Since when is the Diablo series or Fallout series a "FPS in disguise"??? And Oblivion is far from "just a FPS in disguise"...By your logic I bet you call Phantasy Star "just a FPS in disguise"...*eye roll emoticon*
I was talking about Oblivion, which for some reason most people actually consider it a RPG.
My point is still valid, because when they're not FPS then they are RTS games in disguise, for the most part.
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Okay, so if backstory isn't exactly the most important thing in character development... what other elements would you consider that are most important? Having your own personal music theme? Having double and triple techs with other characters?
Changing, A perfect example Poshul vs. Pierre at first Poshul is big pink lovable monstrosity, and Pierre is some over the top French swordsman. But after the game is done Pierre has come to know that A hero must have determination, must know that when he is scared he must still pull through. That is development as apposed to Poshul who after all is down is the exactly as she was at the beginning. How did she grow? how did she better her self?
Your whole point is based on the fact that Cross' characters aren't deveoloped just because they don't say different things? The whole point of that, which you completely ignored in my previous posts, was so that you could play with whatever cast of characters you chose. Also, the localization team that worked on Cross did a wonderful job in precisely doing just that . By giving them their special accents, which you apparently decidedly choose to ignore based only on the fact that you don't like them.
I almost envy you, you are so easily impressed with them randomly adding "CHA" that you thought it okay for them two forgo growth of the people talking them selfs.
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1) Have you read the topic of this thread?
2) It DOES matter, because computer RPG's are for the most part other types of games (like FPS or RTS games) in disguise.
The topic of the thread is Further Character Discussion and we're discussing how Cross can be compared to PC RPGs as much as others...It's stupid to think they can't be because you're making a broad generalization about PC RPGs. The fact remains, all games are made on computers first as programs. To call Diablo or Fallout a FPS OR RTS "in disguise", which neither series is (Fallout even has a very dedicated SRPG game in the series), only further shows how baseless your accusation is.
You say that they actually show character through their actions, but in what form is this different than the actions that Cross' characters perform? They still just follow around the main character of the game and basically just do everything in the same way that another character would, with a somewhat different line.
You're obviously forgetting key points in Trigger. Magus manipulates an entire race and then when is sent back to Zeal, manipulates his own mother in his attempts to get revenge upon Lavos and also confronts his mother on the Black Omen. Ayla disciplines Kino, fights Azala for Crono's Gate Key, makes a heartfelt speech to the old man of Laruba, and goes to obtain the Dactyls so that she can go to face Azala one last time. Robo helps to repair the Masamune (granted, Lucca could do the same), restores Fiona's Forest by staying behind to tend it, enlightens the party to the fact that Lavos is not behind the creation of the gates (MAJOR!!!), is forced to confront and destroy his friend Atropos, and then fights against his "mother" the Mother Brain.
And that's mostly just what they DO and not what they say (I added the part about Ayla's speech because it kicks butt). If you can give as many good examples for unique ventures on Poshul, Turnip and NeoFio's behalf, be my guest.
Oh, and if you think a freakin ACCENT equals character development, then our ideas of character development are obviously separated by a vast gulf my friend...Most of the accents don't make sense regionally (I don't remember a France or an Australia), which I can overlook (I recall a certain amphibian character with a quasi-English way of speaking), but there are those which are beyond stupid and some aren't even used right (Irenes). Saying the exact same thing only with a different accent doesn't give near as good individuality as saying something different with the same accent as everyone else.
Your objections to action/adventure RPGs with a changed POV (what you call FPSs "in disguise") don't make sense to me.
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After checking out some of the art (in an attempt to create my Magness versions of Luccia & Grobyc), man, I love some of the ORIGINAL designs...
Draggy
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9816/draggyfg4.png)
Razzly
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4510/razzlync7.png)
Van
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4718/vanie4.png)
Luccia
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4544/luccians0.jpg)
Fargo
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1908/fargoqr1.png)
Korcha
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1020/korchaci6.png)
Mel
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7538/melvq8.png)
Grobyc
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5029/grobycoj7.png)
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Yeah...Mel and Korcha have much better designs in this art than they did in the game. Why didn't they go with this art?
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Maybe to accentuate how lame they (Korcha & Mel) are.
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Still...that coatvest thingy Mel is wearing would've been great...as well as making her a little older, since she's just a brat as she is now.
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Uhm, she does have that vest thingy...
(http://chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/8/82/Melart.png)
Though it doesn't look as cool on her...and it's slightly different, I guess...
I kinda like her hair more in the orignals too (both versions really)...
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I forgot about that. The original design is better, as is her hair design.
Really, Mel is a piece of crap in the actual game. What moron thought this version was better than that art?
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Draggy Duck so cute! I like to have one in party. Aww.
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Fargo and Grobyc Look like there straight out of a finial fantasy.
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I'll agree with you there on hair alone (because spikey=Cloud=Nomura), but not the rest...
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Well, I'll try and rate some of my favourite characters here, since I totally missed all but one poll until now. Also, I'll try to start browsing other forums besides General Discussion again, for a change, to hopefully avoid such mishaps in the future. :S
OK, let's begin, then.
- Glenn -
Character design: Glenn's design gives me a perfect 'dude-about-to-graduate-in-knight-highschool' impression, which I'm not sure to be exactly good since he is supposed to be a full-fledged Dragoon. I guess it has something to do with the bandana, buckler, leather armor and the way he hangs his sheath in the front. Still, I like his design, and it reminds me of Lodoss' Parn, a bit.
Combat usefulness: Glenn was a monster. From the very first time you use him he can easily compete with Serge in sheer combat prowess, and his dual-wielding Einalzers were the coolest weapons in the game.
Tilt factor: Well, even though he has a very interesting personality his relevance to the main plot, or to the many subplots is mainly inexistant. I've always seen him as a protrusion from Riddel's/Dario's history, in this regard. I give him a B.
- Grobyc -
Character design: Grobyc's design is a cool mix of Capcom's Captain Commando and Strider Hiryu, which works great with his 'martial artist cyborg' theme. He looks very fierce and menacing, and the blue/red contrast works great. The only complaints I have about his design are: 1. The hair: That wavy look sort of breaks the whole bad-ass image. If it was straight, it would look cooler. 2. That symbol on his forehead, which he seems to have borrowed from some hindu godess with six arms, or something.
Combat usefulness: Grobyc kicks ass. A party comprised of Serge, Glenn and Grobyc should make most bosses in the game shit their pants in awe.
Tilt factor: There it goes again. Grobyc, although a very cool looking character with a very cool and fitting personality, has barely any relevance to the game's plots. Even though his combat stance is so Muay Thai-ish, and his third tech looks so much like Iron Man's giant cannon-thing in the X-Marvel vs. Street Capcom games (at least one of them, I remember for sure), I'll have to give him a B. He is like Vincent, all coolness but zero relevance, except for the facts that Grobyc will necessarily join your party and Vincent has some pretty interesting subplots... Well, you get the idea.
- Harle -
Character design: Oh man, here she is. The Moon Child shrouded in exuberant beauty and exotic mystery. *Coughs* Harle's design is incredibly fitting and symbolic of her personality, dilemmas and lifestyle. It's a physical manifestation of these things in so many levels. How she hides her real self behind a mask, how she is but the joker in the court of Dragons, how she cries behind the cute, confident smile. She has the deepest characterization of all, and not only is her design cool and fitting, but it is also a representation of all she is.
Combat usefulness: She was a good support character, with her Moonshine element and nicely-damaging offensive elements.
Tilt factor: She was a major piece of the plot during the whole game, and before. She has an incredibly interesting personality, and it is outright impossible not to feel touched by her dilemmas as a Dragon and as a human. Her moon based elements all look really cool and fit perfectly with her whole mysterious feel. She has my A all the way. And I swear the rhyme was not intentional.
- Kid -
Character design: Her outfit screams 'piratess'. Her face says "yes I'm cute, but if you touch me I'll slit your throat so hard you'll bleed on the moons". Her design shows her characterization as an independant free-spirit right away, and all the piratess thing, all with the leather boots and gloves, and body paint, and seashell-looking necklace, give her a 'bad-ass girl' appearance, most fitting to the character.
Combat usefulness: Great red element, thief, and decently-damaging character overall.
Tilt factor: Basically, she's a pivot to the whole plot, like Serge and Harle. Also, I like her aussie accent most of all, and here's worth mentioning-what-I-forgot-to-mention about Harle, that her accent somehow fits the character perfectly, just like Harle's. I can't explain why, but their accents just feel right. She has the A.
- Nikki -
Character design: He's a rock guitarist who seems to have come straight out of Motley Crue or Twisted Sister. The looks most definetely belong to the character, and the only thing that breaks the rythm here are the ballerina dancers from his crew. Rocking ballerinas. Really disturbing. But it has nothing to do with the character's design. Huh.
Combat usefulness: A decent blue element user, and that's all.
Tilt factor: A deep-enough character that is fundamental to one of the coolest subplots in the game. Plays "Magical Dreamers". Cool guitar attacks. A.
- Norris -
Character design: Norris design striked me as cool and proper from the first time I saw the character, and his outfit has a cool 'airforce' look to it. Besides that, his face and hair reminded my own, when I first played the game. He also reminds me of One Piece's Sanji, a bit.
Combat usefulness: Great yellow element character, losing in caliber perhaps only to Viper, and good damage overall.
Tilt factor: A deep and interesting personality, with interesting takes on and reactions to all the weird stuff happening around him. Very cool and level-headed. Enough relevance for a considerable part of the main plot and the guy who makes the computer at the Dead Sea work. Gunslinger. A.
- Radius -
Character design: Radius' design gives this 'elderly who will kick your ass' impression, which is exactly what he does. His serious and severe face, yet lighthearted demeanor, show his aura of wisdom and reliability in a perfect fashion. He looks like a very cool and badass old man.
Combat usefulness: Radius is a great green element user, with decently damaging physical attacks and nicely damaging techs.
Tilt factor: A deep, human, flawed character with a rich backstory, full of torments and regrets. It's impressive how this man who has so many years behind him still has room for such personal development. Radius is fundamental to the plot, and is one of the single most interesting characters in the game. His techs involving kenjutsu/battoujutsu stances and moves look very cool, and the fact that he performs them using a cane reminds me of Kenshin's backwards-edged sword. He has my sincerest A.
I think that's all, for now. Later I'll rate some more, perhaps.
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Okay, seriously Kyronea, Serge has no Character development!? Did you forget Belthasar explaining how the dimensions split, or Miguel telling Serge how they wound up in Chronopolis? Serge's character is developed through others, since he has no voice for himself.
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Okay, seriously Kyronea, Serge has no Character development!? Did you forget Belthasar explaining how the dimensions split, or Miguel telling Serge how they wound up in Chronopolis? Serge's character is developed through others, since he has no voice for himself.
Exactly. He's therefore a pathetic waste. Give the character a voice and maybe I'll change my mind.
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Exactly. He's therefore a pathetic waste. Give the character a voice and maybe I'll change my mind.
Wow, for once, I'm totally in disagreement with you. I take it you think Crono is a pathetic waste too? The Chrono Series redefined storytelling by making the protagonist silent so you spoke for him.
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Yes I think the same of Chrono, and no, it did not "redefine storytelling." That was a typically bad maneuver at the time that should not have been preserved.
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Background information&history=/=Character development
That's why.
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Crono and Serge, as silent protagonists, really depend on interaction with the other characters to make their personality stand out. Furthermore, because they're "blank slates" of sorts, they allow the player to project themselves and make the story all the richer.
Trigger succeeded greatly in this because they kept out of Crono's past and had a rich, well-developed cast.
Cross bogged us down with useless, unlikable characters and "OMG BAD GUY IS YOUR FATHER BUT YOU DON'T REALLY CARE" sorts of things. They should have stuck with the likable narrator of CC instead of bastardizing the likable mute from CT.
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Ugh. Sorry, but by these criteria, Crono is utterly worthless. I've had him towards the bottom of my personal CT character pecking order for precisely these reasons. He's an archetype, not a person. He's just a brave hero who throws himself into danger. At least Serge had a backstory. They both suffer by not getting dialogue, but Crono suffers more because he's effectively cardboard.
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Then might I bring up my surprised sprite counter? lol
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Ugh. Sorry, but by these criteria, Crono is utterly worthless. I've had him towards the bottom of my personal CT character pecking order for precisely these reasons. He's an archetype, not a person. He's just a brave hero who throws himself into danger. At least Serge had a backstory. They both suffer by not getting dialogue, but Crono suffers more because he's effectively cardboard.
I find it the exact opposite, yes both could have used dialog. But out of the two Crono came out on top because he is was just a archetype, but serge was a full character and a full character that does speak (and is not mute) makes less sense then a stereotypical silent protagonist trying to save the day. But still Serge is an "A" in my book.
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Yeah, I would have given Sneff a D for all the reasons everyone else gave. Total Chimo.
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say, i propose rating RD characters than.
what did you think of design/combat/tile for RD serge, kid, and magil?
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That's hardly fair though since all of RD is from Serge's perspective.
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most of CT is from crono, and all of CC is serge.
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I mean that it's all from his narration...? We don't get any information from anyone else that he doesn't get firsthand. In both CT & CC there are scenes that don't involve the party at hand or in some cases that specifically involve only certain party members.
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Alot of characters in CC were hardly worth while...I still say Pip deserved a damn high grade. That thing was actually really useful in battles for healing and did pretty decent damage..I found Sneff, Mojo, Skelly and like 20 others to be completely useless to me. I just left them to die =]
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Alright, since I'm bored that nothing's come of this forum and these threads, I'm going to at least give the final overall grades of all the characters in one post...I should just make another topic (or SOMEONE should)...but I assume someone's eventually going to do something with all this crap...I'll put their highest voted grade followed by how many votes to that grade over how many votes total for that character...
Doc - C (7/10)
Draggy - C (8/14)
Fargo - A (8/16)
Funguy - D (10/12)
Glenn - A (8/15)
Guile - A (4/11) & B (4/11)
Greco - C (5/10)
Grobyc - B (10/19)
Harle - A (9/11)
Irenes - C (6/10)
Janice - D (11/12)
Karsh - A (7/12)
Korcha - D (10/12)
Leah - C (7/15)
Leena - B (6/18) & C (6/18)
Kid - A (10/13)
Luccia - C (5/11) & D (5/11)
Marcy - C (7/14)
Macha - D (9/12)
Mel - D (8/11)
Miki - D (7/13)
Mojo - B (3/10) & C (3/10) & D (3/10)
NeoFio - D (9/13)
Nikki - B (8/13)
Norris - A (8/15)
Orcha - D (6/10)
Orlha - B (5/9)
Pierre - A (5/17) & B (5/17) & C (5/17)
Pip - B (5/12)
Poshul - D (8/18)
Radius - A (7/13)
Razzly - C (6/12)
Riddel - B (5/14) & C (5/14)
Serge - A (10/15)
Skelly - C (5/12)
Sneff - D (9/12)
Sprigg - B (8/16)
Starky - D (5/14)
Steena - C (3/8)
Turnip - B (3/10) & D (3/10)
Van - C (7/9)
Viper - A (4/10)
Zappa - B (8/12)
Zoah - D (10/13)
Chrono Cross Characters
As - 11
Bs - 11
Cs - 15
Ds - 15
Final Grade - C/D
Of course, I didn't count Serge as Lynx because I don't see that as a different character besides the character design really...but if I did, it would have given them one more A (duh, cause Serge as Serge got an A)...And I also counted all of the grades in tie situations (which is why there are a total of 52 grades).
I find it odd that besides Serge, Kid, & Harle, almost none of the overall A grades were close to unanimous at all. Most were close by 1 or 2 votes of being tied or surpassed by a B...While most of the D grades WERE as highly voted so as Serge, Kid, & Harle were voted A...But then again, maybe it means nothing because Grobyc was the highest voted character with 19 votes total, Steena the lowest with 8 total...and both Kid & Serge got the highest A grades with 10 A votes.
Hooray for democracy!...?
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I find it odd that besides Serge, Kid, & Harle, almost none of the overall A grades were close to unanimous at all. Most were close by 1 or 2 votes of being tied or surpassed by a B...While most of the D grades WERE as highly voted so as Serge, Kid, & Harle were voted A...But then again, maybe it means nothing because Grobyc was the highest voted character with 19 votes total, Steena the lowest with 8 total...and both Kid & Serge got the highest A grades with 10 A votes.
Hooray for democracy!...?
I suppose that demonstrates that some of the variety in the cast of characters offers "something for everyone", while some of the variety just sucks. I personally don't understand Viper scoring an A while Nikki comes off with a mere B... Apparently it really bothers people that he attacks with a guitar.
Alot of characters in CC were hardly worth while...I still say Pip deserved a damn high grade. That thing was actually really useful in battles for healing and did pretty decent damage..I found Sneff, Mojo, Skelly and like 20 others to be completely useless to me. I just left them to die =]
Because his character and story were practically non-existent. And Chrono Cross isn't even that difficult, so it's not like being good in battle is that important... But I suppose it's important to you. :)
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RISE! RISE FROM THE DEAD!! :lol:
Apparently it really bothers people that he (Nikki) attacks with a guitar.
When he attacks with his guitar (GrandFinale), it's awesome...otherwise though, he's, what? Attacking with sound waves that are somehow not determined at all by his guitar, but by his friggin pick?? I'd be more comfortable with that if he changed amps, maybe...imagine his final amp being a huge ass wall of sound behind him & the other party members (of course, made of Rainbow Shells)....
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He would be cool if he could get high, burn his guitar and then smash someone with it. :)
But what, his attacks are noise? And monsters' ears would bleed out or something?
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I think it's a romantic idea that a musician could have such incredible control over sound that he could use it for offensive purposes as well... farfetched, sure... but it is Chrono Cross.
As for the pick. This is obviously just because the design team was too lazy to design different harps and guitars for Irenes and Nikki respectively. It doesn't really have much to do with his character and I think there are more important aspects in judging his design. He was way more style and character than Viper. Viper really just comes off as a naive old man for most of the game. Sure, it's nice that he wakes up later on... but so does half the cast. His coat is cool, I suppose. But really, his personality's not that interesting...
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Eh, what can you say, he's the war-torn general, that's his archetype, that's his character, and that's his story. He's a powerhouse, I'll give him that, but he lost out on the character development aspect. He's that old man who only believes in honor and code, yet still manages to make mistakes in life. I'd say his best trait is the fact that he's pitted against Fargo...except we have basically no idea why...
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Nikki on the other hand is quite unique for an RPG character... I suppose he's more controversial as a result.
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Yeah, not too many overtly effeminate male characters in RPGs these days...uhhhh...>_>
I guess he's got the best reason to be so though since he's like an actor? Or, wait, he's a rock star? Wait, wtf is he again? Part of a theater troupe with an electric guitar (that he never plugs in)...? Sometimes unique=stupid.
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I think you're nit-picking. Obviously some kind of wireless-micro-amp technology exists in the Chrono Verse, like all the other fantastic things, and you just get over it. And Nikki has magical powers, maybe he just powers his guitar with those... gosh.
He's a rock star who gives theatrical, plot-driven shows.
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Magic guitar sounds almost as stupid...possibly moreso now that I think about it...>_<
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Nikki was unique...useless, but unique. I can't really compare him to any other RPG characters--he's that spoony bard archetype, but he's got a more modern touch to him. Unfortunately that modern touch didn't make sense worth shit--like V_ pointed out. I mean, his pick is his power? He seemed kinda out of place in CC...I mean, on one side you have all these knights running around with swords, axes, shields, helmets, etc. and on the other side you have some effeminate bloke knocking enemies over with the sound of music (HE'S THE JULIE ANDREWS OF THE CHRONO UNIVERSE).
And he's somehow Fargo's son? Blah.
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It seems Nikki has a good backstory.
Fargo, Luccia, Marcy, Nikki and Viper... they all have something to to with Porre.
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Yup. It's a bit strange, but through Fargo a good handful of characters got some backstory, although it wasn't explored as much as it should have been, if you ask me. I mean, Fargo had the most definition, as a character, even though some of his backstory was a bit ambiguous. As much as I hate the fact that Nikki and Marci are Fargo's kids, it did make 'em both a wee bit more interesting, and I respect that.
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Well, I think he's reminds me of David Bowie. And I love David Bowie. But I liked Nikki even before I started listening to Bowie.
He's a colourful, fun character with style. He's got a good chunk of dialogue, story, and a strong connection to the world of characters.
And yet you insist on hating on his magical guitar and his androginous look. Fine. The fact that he's so controversial just confirms that he's special, I suppose.
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Heh, I guess I'll just have to admit that he's a unique character, but not the best fighter. He's definitely unusual, or controversial, as you put it. I didn't think it made sense for his character to be so...funky, but that's just me; I'm sure a lot of people got a kick out of him. He definitely had a good storyline and backstory, and a very memorable side-quest. He's a neat little weirdo.
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I don't think I said I hate him...but he has faults and thus is obviously not (even close to) an A character.
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I don't think I said I hate him...but he has faults and thus is obviously not (even close to) an A character.
I didn't say you did... I said you were hating on his magical guitar and androginous appearance- his more controversial aspects. ;)
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Alright then, I'll rephrase...I don't think I said I hated his androginous appearance. I was just making the point that it wasn't something that made him unique.
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well, you separated that aspect of his design to make an argument that he isn't unique, even though this aspect is an intrinsic result of his glam-rock status- which for an RPG is quite unique, even if you don't like it.
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Aye, I personally thought it was a bit strange, but I can't deny its uniqueness: it's a modern flare to the bard archetype. He's probably the most unique character that doesn't come off as completely ridiculous. Starky, for instance, was unique and different, but seemed outrageously strange...same with that little turnip guy. Nikki seemed like he could fit in a little more sensibly.
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He ripped off the top gun theme with his show boat performance.
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Since I missed every character poll, I'll just rate every single one of them from favorite to least favorite here. Using the annoying, unoriginal, and craptastic GameFAQs tradition of putting everything into "tiers"!
I'll include a quick note to why I rate them how I do.
God Tier
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#1 Fargo - He's a pirate! That's automatic first place!
#2 Kid - Sexy, one of the characters who can steal (other is above) decent well rounded fighter, and integral to the story.
#3 Glenn - Though not as much of a story as I'd liked, he's strictly badass, and with two Einlanzers and a double tech with Serge Glenn is easily one of the best fighters in the game.
#4 Serge - Would've been higher if his Luminaire wasn't a puny little lazer light show compared to Crono's original badass one. Still, you gotta like the swallow weapons.
#5 Guile - The Magus that wasn't. Still, one of the most badass magicians in gaming history. Gotta love the flying runs.
#6 Sprigg - I loved this wrinkly old hag. The dopplegang moves were fun, and added incredible depth to an otherwise wash/rinse/repeat combat system.
#7 Norris - Loved his character development, seeing as he was one of the few to actually get some. Plus he uses guns.
#8 Razzly - If this was a cute contest, she'd have 1st place. Since this is overall, and actually fighting ability plays a role, she drops a bit. Although I hate the fact that her lvl 7 tech takes so much damn work to get, and can be ruined by using her too much.
#9 Pierre - He is to heroes what Carrot Top is to comedians, and yet Pierre actually manages to succeed. How about that?
#10 Harle - Zexy French clown? Oui! Admittedly, I think she scored higher up here because I had crush on Harle from Batman back in my younger days. Still, crazy chicks need love too, amirite?
High Tier
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#11 Lynx (Serge transformed) - As a player, Lynx was fun. But throwing the actual Lynx character into this, not what Serge transformed to, I have to rate him lower than the top ten. He started off as a badass mysterious villain, then quickly turned into Darth Vader without a personality or soul. "Serge, I am your father!"
#12 Janice - I liked her because of how unique she was, and not in an annoying way either. A carrot weapon, strong attacks, admired by Spekkio (?), and she's a bunneh girl! What's not to like!?
#13 Steena - Great magic attacks, unique techniques that were actually interesting to obtain, not to mention a knockout in the looks department (Yowza!) plus she's the only female character in the game that uses swords.
#14 Leena - Another winner in the looks department. (Geez I'm biased here) She starts off with good character development, but down the line the story just seems to forget she's there. I wish her interaction with her alternate self was a bit less yawnworthy tho'.
#15 Riddel - Another integral part of the story, with great skills, strong magic ability, and not to mention yet another good looking character to have marching around in your party. So why's she this far down? She dies all the damn time in battle!
#16 Orlha - Strong blue innates seem to be hard to come by, Fargo being the big exception. If you're looking for something less hairy and rugged, Orlha's halfway there! (She's a bit rugged. Cute, but rugged. Don't tell her I'm here! *Hides*)
#17 Nikki - I liked the 'Magical Dreamer's' segment at Marbule, and I liked his character, but they NEVER did anything with his revelation of Marcy being his sister! Lame...
#18 Miki - Erm... What? She needs a comment? *Stare*
#19 Radius - I wanted to name him "Grandpa Badass" but there wasn't enough room.
#20 Pip - He'd be more fun if his 'evolution' didn't take so long to pull off. Pokemon on my Playstation? It could happen.
Normal Tier
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#21 Starky - Normal tier means decent, usable, but not awesome and standing out in my usual parties. Starky is just too weird and annoying.
#22 Grobyc - Needed more backstory. Still my favorite black innate when Guile isn't available.
#23 Marcy - "You're my sister!" "Wat?" *Forgets entire thing ever happened*
#24 Karsh - He annoyed me... I don't know why... I think it was the throwing away the flower bit. GET OVER IT EMO!
#25 Viper - He was kinda cool, but by the time you get him, meh. Radius already won the Gramps cup, so I guess Viper gets the silver medal.
#26 Zappa - He makes me weapons. Wait, he can fight too? Oh well. Make weapons slave!
#27 Irenes - Annoying accent #42, umlauts over EVERYTHING.
#28 Sneff - Annoying accent #43, all I want for Chrisfffmas ith my two ffffront teeffff.
#29 Van - Ugh... A painter with a boomerang who covets money... ADVENTURE AWAITS!
#30 Luccia - A thicker German accent than any German on Earth, and the personality of a dead dog.
#31 Turnip - The fuck?
#32 Zoah - Someone needs to turn his Capslock key off.
Shit Tier
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#33 Doc - A surfer talking doctor? Even though he gets plenty of backstory, and plays an integral role in the plot, I never used him in my party.
#34 Korcha - SPEEDO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
#35 Orcha - Hecha sayscha chacha toocha manycha timescha!
#36 Skelly - He's just weird... I like his character and all, but I just never played with him in my party.
#37 Mel - A little brat... And that's it... Just a little brat...
#38 Leah - A little brat ripoff of a previous character who says UM all the time... Bring back the "just a little brat" please.
#39 Draggy - No.
#40 Mojo - What?
#41 NeoFio - The hell?
#42 Poshul - :x
#43 Macha - Someone call Captain Ahab.
#44 Greco - If someone had told me years ago that the sequel to Chrono Trigger would have a Mexican Wrestler exorcist as one of its characters, I would have told them to rot in hell for such blasphemy. Why did this character need to exist? Bring in the ninja from the development art! Even the guy selling Churros would've been a more plausable character.
#45 Funguy - This one was just stupid... This is saying a lot since I put him below Greco of all people.
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Why drag our nice little character poll through the mud (i.e. GameFAQs) when ZeaLitY went to the trouble of making a whole set of rating guidelines?
As part of a "Rank the Characters of Chrono Cross" feature, a huge public vote is being held. Every two days, forum members can rate a character on a scale of A-D. Your rating should be based on:
- Character Design - How good is this character's visual aesthetic, profile, and charm?
- Combat Usefulness - Is this character adept or fun in combat?
- Tilt - This can be anything, from how cool the character is to your judgment of the character's plot importance.
Good luck.
DO IT AGAIN, ONLY THIS TIME DO IT RIGHT!! :lol:
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#1 Fargo - He's a pirate! That's automatic first place!
I agree with you, he's the coolest looking male character in this game. LOL
I like the tablet in his room with "天下無敵" written on it.
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I don't agree he deserves a high place because he is a pirate. There are a lot of lame pirates out there...
Well, this just proves that Chrono Cross has something for everyone. Case in point: I think Mojo's really nifty and think Janice is terrible... I onced ranked all the characters in order as well, it was on Chrono Shock... sadly, the original forum is dead at the moment and I can't access that post.
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So... let me get this straight. There is a fan-edit of CC being made that only includes the characters that are deemed "good enough" by the community? Whatever floats their boats, I say. I think it's a horrible idea and I would never play it, but if that's what they want to do, let them.
A huge factor in my love for Chrono Cross is the freedom that I have to make any character I want seem important to the plot if I choose to. When I play, Poshul is a main character. When others play, she might not be in the story at all. Such is the beauty of Chrono Cross... You can play it however you want, unlike other RPG's, where you are forced to use certain characters and play a certain way. In Chrono Cross, your gameplay experience is tailored by YOU, and to take that away is to ruin the essence of the game.
But whatever, do as you wish. I just think it's a disastrous idea if I've ever heard one. I don't see the point in making a less flexible and variable version of a masterpiece of a game, just to cater to the minimalists and CT fanboys.
i'd play it.
i don't see the point in a lot of things in chrono cross. especially the accents or crazy amount of characters. if somebody did a fan remake or a rom hack i'd love to see it. fewer playable characters means more story for the game, including former pcs who are now npcs who still get mentioned and then the playables wouldn't need phonetic accents, and could maybe develop over the course of the adventure.
and i don't mean to argue or point fault or blame, i'm just saying half the people posting on this thread are saying "dood there's problems in the game" and the other half are saying "shut up its fine" and it's not going anywhere. agree to disagree and be done with it, jeez.
I don't agree he deserves a high place because he is a pirate. There are a lot of lame pirates out there...
Well, this just proves that Chrono Cross has something for everyone. Case in point: I think Mojo's really nifty and think Janice is terrible... I onced ranked all the characters in order as well, it was on Chrono Shock... sadly, the original forum is dead at the moment and I can't access that post.
chrono cross has something for me. there's just not enough of it. if there could be a third dimension to visit, with the story more spread out between dimensions, like one with chronopolis, one with dinopolis, and one with neither, and maybe less characters (only 25 to 35 or so ha) i'd LOVE the game and that'd be that.
somebody make this please!
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I've been playing Suikoden Tierkreis which has 108 characters... which makes me appreciate the 45 in Chrono Cross even more. :D
most of the 108 are shit and even the best characters aren't that great... Chrono Cross still offers a multi-faceted roster but with more interesting characters...
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Very few RPGs go so high in character number though (isn't that Suikoden an SRPG? though I know the regular Suikoden games have a shitton of characters as well...)...
To me, if CC was tailored to ME then the whole cast of characters would get my desired amount of Character Development: Moderate to Great. As is, I only see maybe half get Fair to Moderate, a couple (I would say literally 2) get Great and the rest get Next to None.
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Very few RPGs go so high in character number though (isn't that Suikoden an SRPG? though I know the regular Suikoden games have a shitton of characters as well...)...
All the Suikodens have 108 characters. As a general rule, though, there's a central core of a dozen or so who get all the character development--the others are just extras who may not even be truly playable (they set up shops in your headquarters, or run minigames or what have you).
The real problem when you have a game with a large cast is maintaining focus on the most important characters. The first three Suikodens did this fairly well. Chrono Cross, unfortunately, doesn't quite pull it off.
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Ah, I don't think I ever posted it here, but a while back I had the folks at another forum decide which Cross characters should stay or go if there was a remake.
o=KEEP, x=CUT, -=optional?
Serge, Kid, and Magil stay for certain.
Doc: x
Draggy: xxx o
Fargo: oooooo
Funguy: xxxxxx
Glenn: ooooooo
Guile:
Greco:
Grobyc:
Harle: oooooo
Irenes: o -
Janice: xx
Karsh: x ooooo
Korcha: xx
Leah: x o
Leena: oo
Luccia: ooo x
Macha: xx
Marcy: oo -
Mel: xx
Miki: x oo
Mojo: xxx o
NeoFio: xxxx
Nikki: x oo
Norris: ooooooo
Orcha: xx
Orlha: o x
Pierre: o x
Pip: xx
Poshul: xxx
Radius: oo
Razzly: xxxx o
Riddel: oooo
Skelly: xx
Sneff: xx
Sprigg: ooo x
Starky: oo xx
Steena: o x
Turnip: xxx
Van: o xx
Viper: oo
Zappa: ooo
Zoah: o xx -
Kept (unanimous)
Fargo
Glenn
Harle
Leena
Norris
Radius
Riddel
Viper
Zappa
(Certain side characters such as Garai and Dario were also suggested, but I took that as a "make them playable" request at first and could not count them in)
Kept (majority rule)
Irenes
Karsh
Luccia
Marcy
Miki
Nikki
Sprigg
It wasn't a proper poll though, more a thread of right-in votes and opinions. For example, a lot of people suggested Karsh, but only if they found a way to "un-gay" him.
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Very few RPGs go so high in character number though (isn't that Suikoden an SRPG? though I know the regular Suikoden games have a shitton of characters as well...)...
All the Suikodens have 108 characters. As a general rule, though, there's a central core of a dozen or so who get all the character development--the others are just extras who may not even be truly playable (they set up shops in your headquarters, or run minigames or what have you).
The real problem when you have a game with a large cast is maintaining focus on the most important characters. The first three Suikodens did this fairly well. Chrono Cross, unfortunately, doesn't quite pull it off.
It's not an SRPG, rather a traditional one with five characters (four fighting and one support) in a party (with the hero almost always taking up a slot). All 108 are playable except for one (and about 20 play support)
My favourite characters in Chrono Cross are well presented enough that they're some of my favorite video game characters of all time (Kid being number one). Further focus wasn't necessary. Sure, it may have been nice, and with only 25 characters, the game would have still retained that unique aspect of diversity; but I still don't like the idea of a "Fan's Cut" all too much.
chrono cross has something for me. there's just not enough of it. if there could be a third dimension to visit, with the story more spread out between dimensions, like one with chronopolis, one with dinopolis, and one with neither, and maybe less characters (only 25 to 35 or so ha) i'd LOVE the game and that'd be that.
Those are two unrelated things. I really doubt the creators said "Well, we'd like to make a third dimension, but we don't really have room thanks to all the characters". Rather, that's an issue that would be central to the plot. The idea is that Serge is dead in one world and alive in the other, therefore he's the missing piece in one of the worlds at any given time...
i don't see the point in a lot of things in chrono cross. especially the accents or crazy amount of characters. if somebody did a fan remake or a rom hack i'd love to see it. fewer playable characters means more story for the game, including former pcs who are now npcs who still get mentioned and then the playables wouldn't need phonetic accents, and could maybe develop over the course of the adventure.
Not only the accents are different, sometimes the characters say different things, like Nikki, who says on board the S.S. Invincible after the group has escaped "Easier than playing the bass". It's fun, somewhat hidden details like that that help make Chrono Cross special. In Suikoden Tierkreis, the optional characters you bring are almost always silent, no accents no nothing.
It wasn't a proper poll though, more a thread of right-in votes and opinions. For example, a lot of people suggested Karsh, but only if they found a way to "un-gay" him.
How is Karsh gay? or gayed?
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Those are two unrelated things. I really doubt the creators said "Well, we'd like to make a third dimension, but we don't really have room thanks to all the characters". Rather, that's an issue that would be central to the plot. The idea is that Serge is dead in one world and alive in the other, therefore he's the missing piece in one of the worlds at any given time...
Yes, those are two unrelated things, except that they are related in that they are both examples I gave of things I thought would make the game better, which was clearly stated. I understand the developers saw it differently. I played the game. My point is that in Trigger the methods of travel between worlds are slowly but constantly expanding. First you get sucked into a portal. Then you can travel between them. Then you end up in the End of Time as a 'home base'. Then you collect gates to different times that are connected to each other. Then you get a time machine, which does all that AND a bag of fast overworld travel potato chips. In Cross, you find out in the beginning, 'You died in this dimension. But you can still go home too.' and it doesn't really change from that for a majority of the game. It feels very Boolean. Get in boat, or walk on foot on land. The way I see it, the themes and mood of Chrono Cross can be summed up by the lyrics (if not the music) of one song.
'One way
or another
I'm gonna find ya,
I'm gonna getcha getcha getcha etc.'
Not only the accents are different, sometimes the characters say different things, like Nikki, who says on board the S.S. Invincible after the group has escaped "Easier than playing the bass". It's fun, somewhat hidden details like that that help make Chrono Cross special. In Suikoden Tierkreis, the optional characters you bring are almost always silent, no accents no nothing.
That's not saying much for Suikoden Tierkreis then.
And as far as the details in Cross, I just think they shouldn't have been hidden. Except Greco. He has no place in the Chronoverse. :(
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*walks into a deserted street, into the long forgotten part of the forum...* "um...hello?"
This whole section of the forum is dead... I wish I would have been around for the ranks...I still hated Cross back then, anyway. It's interesting reading the opinion of the people, though. Um, are these sections of the forums still available for new users? giving our opinions about the characters and ranking them (even if the vote doesn't affect the character-rating feature anymore), or would it be considered necroposting? Or is there something new planned for this section? I mean they haven't been new posts in almost two years...
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Oh! Excuse my late reply. My very late reply.
Yes, those are two unrelated things, except that they are related in that they are both examples I gave of things I thought would make the game better, which was clearly stated. I understand the developers saw it differently. I played the game. My point is that in Trigger the methods of travel between worlds are slowly but constantly expanding. First you get sucked into a portal. Then you can travel between them. Then you end up in the End of Time as a 'home base'. Then you collect gates to different times that are connected to each other. Then you get a time machine, which does all that AND a bag of fast overworld travel potato chips. In Cross, you find out in the beginning, 'You died in this dimension. But you can still go home too.' and it doesn't really change from that for a majority of the game. It feels very Boolean. Get in boat, or walk on foot on land.
Except that one only gradually understands to what extent the two worlds are different. This larger division of material does not lead to a lack of complexity or diversity in the world of Chrono Cross. It sounds like you simply would like it to be more like Chrono Trigger.
The way I see it, the themes and mood of Chrono Cross can be summed up by the lyrics (if not the music) of one song.
'One way
or another
I'm gonna find ya,
I'm gonna getcha getcha getcha etc.'
:picardno
That's not saying much for Suikoden Tierkreis then.
And as far as the details in Cross, I just think they shouldn't have been hidden. Except Greco. He has no place in the Chronoverse. :(
This hidden element is authentic. In our actual life, you cannot experience all of the possible variations. What you choose to do on any given day and with whom you choose to do it will lead to a unique experience that excludes countless others. Except that with a video game, you have the opportunity to replay it.
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Let's not get into "wanting the game to be more like Trigger". All I was saying was I get the appeal in the game, but it could have been done better. Imagine SEEING the time crash, actually experiencing whatever natural timelines/dimensions there were before AND after Belthasar's "accident"/"plan" instead of just after. A main character who reacts a little bit and finds out sooner who his father is by visiting a dimension where he is still dead but his father is still human, and is able to tell him key facts and help him develop as a person and as a character. Imagine being able to access optional different versions of a smaller cast, choose whichever dimension's variation you want on a team, etc. There was a lot of potential to use some really neat ideas and they did great for the time constraints but the time constraints are far more evident in Cross than Trigger. When they made Trigger they made the game that they WANTED to make, and it had universal appeal. When they made Cross it was company commissioned, they just didn't have the same kind of time, support, resources, disc space, you name it, to polish it up the same way before release. In that way, yes, I DO wish Cross was more like Trigger.
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Let's not get into "wanting the game to be more like Trigger". All I was saying was I get the appeal in the game, but it could have been done better. Imagine SEEING the time crash, actually experiencing whatever natural timelines/dimensions there were before AND after Belthasar's "accident"/"plan" instead of just after. A main character who reacts a little bit and finds out sooner who his father is by visiting a dimension where he is still dead but his father is still human, and is able to tell him key facts and help him develop as a person and as a character. Imagine being able to access optional different versions of a smaller cast, choose whichever dimension's variation you want on a team, etc. There was a lot of potential to use some really neat ideas and they did great for the time constraints but the time constraints are far more evident in Cross than Trigger. When they made Trigger they made the game that they WANTED to make, and it had universal appeal. When they made Cross it was company commissioned, they just didn't have the same kind of time, support, resources, disc space, you name it, to polish it up the same way before release. In that way, yes, I DO wish Cross was more like Trigger.
While what you say of time constraints being evident in Cross is in some aspects (character development, plot exposition) true, this does probably not pertain to the overall plot and there is no evidence to believe that the exploration of more than two dimensions was/would ever have been planned. I find it cute that your ideas of unrealized possibilities lead you to criticize Chrono Cross, even though it is from the existing plot elements of Chrono Cross that you have these ideas. Of course there are infinite possibilities when one speaks of multiple dimensions, but traveling through two dimensions is already a very rich scenario in my opinion and adding further dimensions is dangerous in that it threatens to bog down the progression of the central plot. It would also be difficult to integrate as an essential plot element in contrast to the "Missing Piece"-principle of the two worlds.
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I don't think they ever would have planned more dimensions, but I do think that would have helped me enjoy the game.
The American tv show Fringe handles their alternate universe/timeline concepts really nicely with one character who is central to the plot, as there is always only one of him compared to the alternate versions of the other characters. Plot-wise, it's extremely similar, in fact I didn't even realize until typing this.
Would it have been difficult to integrate more dimensions and have them worthwhile to the plot? Yes, probably. And you're right, it is rich, and the "Missing Piece" concept is cool, as is the concept of Duality, which is continued from Trigger into Cross and given the chance to be explored more thoroughly. I do give Cross a hard time but I don't hate on it (except Greco).
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How is Karsh gay? or gayed?
I believe it's that he has the combination of feathery, lilac hair- and, in my experience, I've met those who consider most shades of purple on men to be a sign of homosexuality- along with flamboyant, attention-grabbing clothes he wears, he would strike someone as a man with gay tendencies. His relationship with Dario does not help in the slightest, many interpreting his jealousy over Dario and Riddel getting together seem to be more of a possessiveness towards Dario than envy for his friend's love piled on top of a crush on Riddel himself. I, personally, believe Karsh to be bisexual rather than homosexual, but that would be out of living a large span of his life with military influences, surrounded by no one but other men. Many sailors and pirates were in a similar situation, having nobody but men available for great lengths of time to vent their sexual frustration with.
Also, should it be his wardrobe that is the primary reason for many to believe Karsh to be gay, judging by one's choice in clothes to determine one's sexuality based on the attention-grabbing qualities, nearly the entire cast would be homosexual to some degree.
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Well, making the entire cast bisexual would make it more like Trigger...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/c/cc/NeoFio_portrait.png): Turnip! I... I have a confession...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/4f/Turnip_portrait.png): What is it, my love?
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/c/cc/NeoFio_portrait.png): I... I have a stamen!
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/4f/Turnip_portrait.png): ...I am okay with this.