Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Chrono'99 on September 19, 2007, 07:05:31 pm
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This question is short and straightforward but I don't think it has been asked and answered yet. Maybe I'm forgetting some simple detail that explains it... I don't know. Here's the question: how can Lavos copy Guardian's battle mode (you know, the robot boss from Arris Dome), and the Lavos Core time-warp to the ruined future, even though the Apocalypse didn't happen yet when the party fights him? How does this work with the Compendium's "Flow Principle"?
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Chrono Trigger is rapidly falling apart. But...
I just imagined that since the Guardian was created before 1999 A.D., Lavos was aware of it and also examined machines in producing his genome. And then for shifting it to the ruined future, we can tie it in to the primary Entity eras, as if Lavos is manipulating them. Of course, if...
Yeah, if the party is fighting him to prevent the ruined future, he shouldn't be able to go there.
So I don't think the Guardian's a plot hole, but 2300 A.D. definitely is. The only example of "seeing the future" from the past is Chronopolis, and it's a special case.
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Well, who says Lavos shouldn't be able to take them to the ruined world, just because it hasn't happened yet? As long as Lavos is alive, the "ruined world" future will remain the set outcome. During the battle, since Lavos hasn't been stopped yet, that future will remain true until the point that Lavos is defeated and thus the "ruined" future is undone.
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The Guardian, as Zeality suggested, was most probably created before 1999 and was examined by Lavos like everything else. Given the way he manipulated the Kingdom of Zeal, it's not unreasonable to presume he would examine technology by the future humans as well.
As for the time warping...I never took it literally...it seemed to me to be more poetic, especially since the only point was for him to use some sort of linked ability, which makes absolutely no sense if he is actually time warping the party around.
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Well, who says Lavos shouldn't be able to take them to the ruined world, just because it hasn't happened yet? As long as Lavos is alive, the "ruined world" future will remain the set outcome. During the battle, since Lavos hasn't been stopped yet, that future will remain true until the point that Lavos is defeated and thus the "ruined" future is undone.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Flow_Principle.html
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So, according to Zeality and Kyronea's explanations, the diagram on Lavos's Pocket Dimension (here (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Pocket_Dimension.html)) must be incorrect. Lavos in his Pocket Dimenson shouldn't be able to look into the ruined future. Interestingly, what Lavos should see when he looks into the future of the timeline from his PD is actually a prosperous future, a future devoid of his influence and thus very similar to the Chrono Cross one, with Belthasar finding the Frozen Flame and building Chronopolis... The only difference would be that Belthasar doesn't plan Project Kid in this future, since Schala has yet to be sucked into the Darkness Beyond Time (the PD is in the Time Error "past", Crono didn't visit Zeal yet) and obviously Lavos has yet to die to merge with her.
However, since Crono's party does visit the ruined future, this means that Lavos's whole PD is in the "past" in terms of Time Error. This fits with the fact that the future must be ruined first for the Entity to see a need to send Crono on his quest. This also means that, during Crono's adventure through time, the PD is already desintegrated, as the "most recent" Lavos (in terms of Time Error) came out in 1999 AD and became (or nested on) Death Peak. I don't know if it's relevant to anything, but this means that all the Lavoses that the party meets in the game are actually past versions of Lavos.
I attached a modified version of the diagram to illustrate what the PD's Lavos can see and what he cannot:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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But doesn't Lavos have time traveller's immunity? If so, then killing a past version wouldn't affect the future versions, right? Or am I completely wrong?
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But doesn't Lavos have time traveller's immunity? If so, then killing a past version wouldn't affect the future versions, right? Or am I completely wrong?
You're right... Killing a past version of Lavos would still not prevent the present/future version of him from emerging in 1,999 A.D., so there's a problem somewhere. If the party goes in 12,000 B.C. and engages Lavos in his PD (=the past Lavos), then even if they are "shifted" to 1,999 A.D. during the fight, there would still be another Lavos (=the present version) emerging in 1,999 A.D. during or after the same battle.
A possible solution could be that the Lavos that the party engages in 12,000 B.C. is actually the present version. Lavos would emerge from his PD in 1,999 A.D. and would for some reason decide to recreate/reenter the PD and travel to 12,000 B.C. to fight the party... and then shift back to 1,999 A.D. during the battle. I think it makes sense in terms of logic, but in terms of reasoning, why would Lavos make all these trips back and forth? In particular, why would he emerge in 1,999 A.D. before going to meet the party in 12,000 B.C., why not directly go meet them first?
Or is it that it's not Lavos's choice, but Queen Zeal in the Black Omen who forcefully summons the present version back through time to fight the party since he should be the most grown-up, most powerful version of Lavos? Gee, that's interesting, but complicated (and we're not even throwing the Time Crash into the mix yet...).
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My idea was that entering the PD shifts you to 1999 A.D. at the moment it dissolves and Lavos appears.
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My idea was that entering the PD shifts you to 1999 A.D. at the moment it dissolves and Lavos appears.
Well, that would explain the fact that when fight him in 12,000 from the Black Omen, it shows him blow up 1999.
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It doesn't comply with the PD principle unfortunately. I forgot to take this principle into account in my middle paragraph in my previous post.
The premise of CT is that Lavos has "already" destroyed the world in 1999 A.D. once, and thus the Entity sends Crono on his quest through time to revert this Apocalypse. But if Lavos has already destroyed the world, this means he already exited his PD, so shouldn't this PD be dissolved for all the timeline? The PD shouldn't be able to appear in 12,000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since it has already been dissolved (or at least it should be empty, with Lavos away). It's like, instead of having a Lavos with no shell, there shouldn't be a Lavos at all... unless the Lavos that appears is the one that emerged in 1999 A.D. (the "present" Lavos).
The "no shell" detail seems to be a proof that it's really the 1,999 A.D. Lavos that appears in 12,000 B.C. If you defeat his shell in 1,999 A.D. and go back to 12,000 B.C., Lavos will appear after the Black Omen with his shell defeated. This means he emerged from his PD in 1999 A.D., may or may not encounter the party depending on their actions, and then he reenters his PD to go all the way back to 12,000 B.C., either summoned by Queen Zeal or on his own will.
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Then I guess Lavos in 12000 B.C. could be said to have emerged via TTI and disappeared via Time Bastard. This is so far from what the developers or Kato probably intended, though...they probably still think Lavos actually was underground for 65 million years.
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Lavos emerging a second time in 12000 B.C. (after the OP disaster) is a problem because he could do that only if he also emerged a second time in the original 12000 B.C., and this is unlikely since the Black Omen didn't rise in the original timeline.
The core of these issues is with Time Error: from the party's perspective, Lavos has already emerged in 1999 A.D. to destroy the world, which means that his Pocket Dimension is already either dissolved or empty for all the timeline. As a result, the party can never enter his Pocket Dimension or even see it at all. All they can see is various versions of Lavoses, including the 1999 A.D. one, emerging from thin air. At this point, I'm starting to think the Pocket Dimension theory is either flawed or superfluous... Perhaps Lavos was really underground for 6500000 years? Queen Zeal still has to summon the 1999 A.D. Lavos (because of the shell detail), but other things might perhaps be simplified in this scenario.
In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.
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In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.
Why would it be funny? It can still make as much sense as the Pocket Dimension theory....if done correctly.
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In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.
Why would it be funny? It can still make as much sense as the Pocket Dimension theory....if done correctly.
I mean funny as in interesting, exciting. The problem is with the PD theory, not Time Error. The latter is really just the simple observation that time-travelers have a personal "time" above the normal time, it can't really be argued with. On the contrary, the PD is a theory, and it may or may not be correct.
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I'm pretty sure it's canon that Crono and co defeat Lavos via the Black Omen in 12,000BC.
Anything else and you have conflicting evidence.
For instance, should Lavos be defeated in 1,999AD, firstly that means the humans would detect a distrubance, and Lavos' rising.
Secondly, it'd mean Zeal would be fact because of the ruined Black Omen and the people who saw it in 600AD +.
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what if the pocket dimension somehow existed both in and out of time.?
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I'm pretty sure it's canon that Crono and co defeat Lavos via the Black Omen in 12,000BC.
Anything else and you have conflicting evidence.
You have conflicting evidence any way you look at it. Defeating Lavos in 12,000 B.C. does not prevent him from emerging in 1999 A.D. to ruin the world. This is because he has already emerged from his PD (=time-traveled) in 1999 A.D. (Crono can only travel to the ruined future, which means that Lavos "time-traveled" to 1999 A.D. before Crono time-travels to 2300 A.D., 12000 B.C., or anywhen else.) The only solution is to revise one of the site's theory, because there's something wrong somewhere.
For instance, should Lavos be defeated in 1,999AD, firstly that means the humans would detect a distrubance, and Lavos' rising.
This one argument is inconclusive. The statement in Chronopolis allows for a fairly large amount of interpretation. The ghost says that...
On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins.
The sentence is:
"On some time lines, Lavos appeared on the surface of the planet in the year 1999 and brought the world to ruins."
There are two statements here, "A" and "B" (they're separated by the "and"). The ghost then says that the Apocalypse was prevented in his timeline; basically that "B" was negated. However, he says nothing about "A". We don't know if Lavos appeared on the surface in his timeline or if he didn't appear at all. And we don't know what happened after the final battle in CT; perhaps Lavos's shell exploded in the Core's crazy time-warping effect and left no corpse on the field (or was sucked and fell directly in the DBT...).
Chronopolis may have sensed a disturbance and known about a mysterious hole in the ground; Lavos may have emerged and been defeated before a photo or recording of him could be made; we don't know. The only thing that Chronopolis definitely didn't get is the destruction of the world, the "Apocalypse". And a potential disturbance or a hole don't constitute useful information for them, even if they have them.
Secondly, it'd mean Zeal would be fact because of the ruined Black Omen and the people who saw it in 600AD +.
Inconclusive too. You can beat the Black Omen in 12000 B.C. and retreat after defeating Lavos's first form, then face Lavos again using the Epoch or the 1999 A.D. bucket.
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Anyway, I've attached two two-dimensional timelines to this post. The regular timeline is on the y axis. The Time Error line, which corresponds to the order of each change to the timeline by the time-travelers, is on the x axis. Read each diagram horizontally so as to not get confused.
Let's consider the first diagram, which corresponds to the "Compendium's canon", with Lavos in a Pocket Dimension, etc. Remember that Pocket Dimensions run on the Time Error axis rather than the regular timeline. Thus, on the diagram, Lavos's Pocket Dimension only exists between point A (his arrival on the planet) and point D (his dissolving of the PD in 1999 A.D. and emerging). Let's summarize the problem.
Facts:
- Lavos appears in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen is beaten (point I on my diagram).
- If the party defeated Lavos's shell earlier in the game, Lavos will be without shell (well, without "head" more precisely) there.
Issue:
- According to the Pocket Dimension theory and the Time Error principle, Lavos shouldn't even be able to appear in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since his Pocket Dimension has already been dissolved at point D. He also never appeared at that date in the original timeline (no Black Omen back then).
Flawed solution (in case you're wondering):
- Perhaps Lavos simply never dissolved his PD? He wouldn't have exited it in 1999 A.D. and continued to live within it on Death Peak. This doesn't work, because even if Lavos didn't exit his PD at point D, his Destruction Rain would still have exited it, and thus the Rain would still appear in 1999 A.D. at point J, destroying the world.
It's complicated, so let's consider the second diagram, which corresponds to what the game should be if we discard the Pocket Dimension theory. Lavos would be a normal inhabitant of the timeline and the Apocalypse a normal event of history rather than the result of him entering the timeline from somewhere else (a Pocket Dimension). Surprisingly, the diagram is heavily simplified in this scenario (I kept the same letters for consistency).
In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).
We can leave it this way: Lavos is defeated in 12000 B.C. No paradox, no unresolvable issue. It works, I think.
As for what to do with the Armageddon-Branch theory, we'll discuss that in another thread because there's probably too much stuff here already (I hope this post made sense).
EDIT: Actually, the "flawed" solution can work if we say that exiting a Pocket Dimension doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (alpha's suggestion of existing both "in and out of time"), and that Lavos created his PD at point B (like V_Translanka once suggested (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,672.msg6831.html#msg6831)). Thus his defeat in the PD would prevent the Apocalypse, but not the Fall of Zeal which was caused by a non-PD Lavos. Thoughts?
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What if Lavos could just regenerate his head? because really it was just a mouth not his real head. Some thing of his power should be able to.
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What if Lavos could just regenerate his head? because really it was just a mouth not his real head. Some thing of his power should be able to.
What is your point? Lavos does not regenerate his head when you destroy it.
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In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).
Unless I misunderstood your post, I will to admit that I could be wrong. One of the problems related to the head, I see no reason that lavos couldn't have grown back his head. instead of going 1999 A.D. --> 12000 B.C. Lavos could just as easily have gone 1999 A.D. --> PD --> 12000A.D. and while Lavos was at the PD he waited, and recovered. That is what Any sentient creature would do, recover before running head long in to battle.
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In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).
Unless I misunderstood your post, I will to admit that I could be wrong. One of the problems related to the head, I see no reason that lavos couldn't have grown back his head. instead of going 1999 A.D. --> 12000 B.C. Lavos could just as easily have gone 1999 A.D. --> PD --> 12000A.D. and while Lavos was at the PD he waited, and recovered. That is what Any sentient creature would do, recover before running head long in to battle.
You're mixing up two problems; I guess I spent too much time explaining one and then I mentioned the other too abruptly. There are 2 Lavos appearances in 12000 B.C.:
1/ Lavos appears during the Ocean Palace disaster (the scene where Crono dies); this one always has its head intact.
2/ Lavos appears after you beat Queen Zeal in the Black Omen; this one can have its head destroyed if you have destroyed it in 1999 A.D.
Point 2/ is the reason the Pocket Dimension theory was invented: he's in the past, yet something done to him in the future affects him here in the past. This sounds good, but there was a slight problem with that theory; I've tried to fix this problem in this topic.
Now point 1/ is something I've only mentioned once, in the post you quoted. The Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head intact regardless of what you do to Lavos elsewhere. The site's explanation is that it's just a gameplay inconsistency because you're supposed to lose to Lavos during that scene to continue to normal storyline (Crono dies). That's why I didn't focus on it in the topic. But according to both possible solutions that I proposed (the "no-PD theory" and what I called the "flawed solution", which I un-flawed in the EDIT), this inconsistency is fixed even though it wasn't the focus, so I mentioned it in passing.
And to be clear, I think what I called the "flawed solution" is better than the "no-PD theory" now. Basically all we have to do is add these fixes to the PD theory for it to work:
-Lavos never exited his PD once he created it (this explains how you can actually fight the same Lavos in 1999 A.D. and 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen)
-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
-Lavos created his PD during the Ocean Palace disaster (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen doesn't prevent the Fall of Zeal, which happened before the PD's creation)
Any flaw or problem remaining?
EDIT: I've attached a revised diagram. Lavos's creation of the PD is a natural event of the timeline which happens at 12000 B.C., so I didn't mark it on the Time Error axis. Since the PD isn't outside of time, I've put two dots for the Time Egg event (you save Crono from the regular past). Also, note that Lavos could have been defeated in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, but I marked his death in 1999 A.D. because this makes the Armageddon-Branch theory valid.
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-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
why wouldnt exiting or entire the pd grant tti? what logic is behind this statement. if you go to the future the display still shows the destructive rain. defeat lavos in 12000 then go to the future(2300) and check..
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Well, I see no Paradox on them meeting Lavos only after watching the video... I mean, the video was already recorded, if was a video of the future. If it was a paradox, so would be they getting to the destroyed future at all.
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I believe that most of the articles here feel that Lavos in 2300 A.D. is lying dormant as Death Peak after giving birth to its spawn, and given the sheer size of him, I wouldn't be surprised if Crono and friends did not initially realize that the mountain was actually Lavos' shell. As for the Guardian, I personally feel it's possible that the robot could have been built to defend something in 1999, so Lavos may have seen it and it's attacks when attacking civilization, and decided, for reasons of its own, to rebuild it.
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Couldnīt Lavos just have read the mind of the party during the battle and used their memories in order to recreate the enemies they have encountered?
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I don't think Lavos actually reads minds of people, but more or less reads memories of the world. I never realized how flawed this whole Lavos thing is until I actually started reading this...Does kinda leave alot of a questions.
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-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
why wouldnt exiting or entire the pd grant tti? what logic is behind this statement. if you go to the future the display still shows the destructive rain. defeat lavos in 12000 then go to the future(2300) and check..
Exiting a PD can't grant TTI because things don't work otherwise (paradoxes, plot-holes, etc.). Besides, you can't go to 2300 A.D. after defeating Lavos in 12000 B.C. (if you're talking about defeating just his first form, then it doesn't change anything either; Lavos is still alive even without head).
I don't think Lavos actually reads minds of people, but more or less reads memories of the world. I never realized how flawed this whole Lavos thing is until I actually started reading this...Does kinda leave alot of a questions.
This is possible. After all the Frozen Flame can read minds, so Lavos could probably read the planet's memories. Anyway, I don't think there's problems left with the explanations posted above, though this is indeed a bit complicated.
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Ironically, I highly doubt that the writers ever put this this much thought into the whole Lavos situation.
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I didn't read everything but I think when the Black Omen rises you can clear it in 2300 AD too. And if you do, this wouldn't be a issue.
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Nope. You Can't. Ol' Queenie won't let you in.
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In his Pocket Dimension, Lavos cannot collect data from the Apocalypse and from the ruined future. This is because when he is in his PD, he hasn't caused the Apocalypse yet.
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in that case the Gaurdian had to be built before 1999.
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Which solution is ultimately simpler? The Pocket Dimension was never physically stated in Chrono Trigger, merely suggested with a few pieces of evidence which have come to be recognized as problematic and related to gameplay quirks.
The main issue I have with the 65KK theory is that Lavos is millions upon millions of years old. But think of the opposite; with a Pocket Dimension, Lavos can effectively time travel at will. Lavos can enter a Pocket Dimension, select an era millions of years in the future, and emerge at whatever time period he likes, perhaps including the End of Time.
But here's the issue. If Lavos pulled that stuff off, he could conceivably see the entire future from his Pocket Dimension, and collect the most advanced DNA imaginable. He'd never have to worry about a threat; he'd be completely undetectable within his safe little dimension, and even if some advanced race could find him, they'd appear to challenge him instantly after he created the Pocket Dimension, since Lavos would now be on Time Error with the timelines laid out before him in their entirety. So Lavos could effectively see eternity for a planet.
If we agree that Lavos is not threatened in this concealed state, then he has no reason to emerge to destroy humanity. In fact, he'd get more out of letting humanity go on, as he could harness its advanced technology and evolution. But let's assume that Lavos still has to come out at 1999 A.D. Without Time Traveler's Immunity, Lavos would instantly lose memory of everything past 1999 A.D. upon destroying the world. The effects of bringing about a ruined future would manifest right back to Lavos's early history without the veil of TTI, and he could never see the Guardian.
(I don't think anyone's noted it yet, but the Guardian, aside from gameplay, was brought up because it's something the party encountered. Lavos may be reading the memories of the party, but to actually imitate those physical effects, it probably needs to have done a full DNA or technical analysis in line with its mission. Anyhow, Lavos brought up that specific boss because the party encountered it; there were probably numerous mythical beasts it could have also relied on. But in retrospect, the entire Guardian thing is probably moot under gameplay now.)
But WITH TTI, we still invoke those other problems discussed earlier. So to explain the one remaining problem of why 12000 B.C. Lavos has no shell, we can argue that Queen Zeal temporally summoned Lavos there:
Oh almighty Lavos, lend me your power!
Lavos is shown to erupt from the ocean floor, but he already did this visually back when he destroyed Zeal, so it's not inconsistent that Lavos can burrow to the surface and then retreat. We have virtual historical precedent for this exact thing with Magus, who summoned Lavos probably spatially and whose Lair was destroyed as a side effect.
I realize we have two issues here: 1) Magus required a giant summoning process, and Queen Zeal didn't. As a counterpoint, Queen Zeal may have been acting as Lavos's terrestrial envoy (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_%28Envoy_of%29.html), or might have even had the Frozen Flame still with her at that point since the Mammon Machine is intact, presumably spit out of the DBT. We already have an example of the Frozen Flame allowing Lavos to call one particular facility 10,000 years back in time... 2) Leaving still spits the party out in 1999 A.D. We can say that like Magus's summon, which didn't cause Lavos to erupt or make a permanent presence on the surface, wore off after it ran its course. After all, a giant event in 600 A.D. would have been recorded by Chronopolis, which could not have recorded Zeal's demise due to a lack of evidence / antiquity. So Lavos, appeared long enough to take on Lavos, and then went back underground. Likewise, Queen Zeal's temporal summon brought Lavos there, but only in the sense of like Chronopolis's presence in El Nido: there's a Gate Effect presence, but inside, it's still 1999 A.D., or whatever era Queen Zeal plucked Lavos from under this theory.
So if this seems logical, we might want to retire the PD theory and adopt the 65KK explanation. We can deal with the ramifications (Armageddon Branch and other things) on a case-by-case basis. I will reread all our analysis in the encyclopedia and bring up offending examples.
Edit: I guess this doesn't matter because the world is a globe, but Mr. Molecule brought this up:
If Lavos is in a pocket dimension, why does it matter how close the summoner's circle is built to his location? That is, if he has no physical location in the world, then summoning him into the world (presumably through a dimensional gate) shouldn't change depending on location.
Or, are we debating his closeness to where the walls between the PD and the regular world are weakest?
So, under the 65KK idea, the placement of Magus's Lair might have some meaning.
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Question: Why can't the Pocket Dimention merely exist in all eras at the same time including the ruined future. Whos to say he doesn't go back into his PD after the Day of Lavos? When Chrono and teh gang defeat him, they are simultaniously defeating him in all the eras.
This could also provide a solution to the Doan Paradox. Maybe the Chrono team exited the PD in the ruined future and picked up Doan from there. Even after they defeat Lavos, they wouldn't be able to access the new timeline until they time-travelled to a point before 1999 AD.
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It would have to be a TTI-less situation, or else we run into those usual problems of having to defeat the Lavos outside the PD in 1999 A.D. But without TTI, we get the Guardian Paradox and have to rely on those assertions Chrono'99 brought up earlier (Lavos never left the PD; he created it after the Ocean Palace incident, which negates the millions of years concern for 65KK, etc.).
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Now point 1/ is something I've only mentioned once, in the post you quoted. The Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head intact regardless of what you do to Lavos elsewhere. The site's explanation is that it's just a gameplay inconsistency because you're supposed to lose to Lavos during that scene to continue to normal storyline (Crono dies).
This is a bit late in coming, though still relevant to present discussion, so allow me to comment. If Lavos having his "head" in point 1/ (when he appears and kills Crono) can be a gameplay inconsistency, why can't Lavos not having his "head" in point 2/ (when he appears in 12,000 BC for the final battle) also be a gameplay inconsistency? In point 1/, you're supposed to lose to Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. In point 2/, you are supposed to continue fighting Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. Indeed, it is only if one acts irrationally that point 2/ is even possible. Certainly it would be a curious situation for the team to have defeated Lavos' maw, realized that there was something inside, then run away to an earlier period to battle him again. It is a result of a player intentionally testing the system, rather than the character's testing the story.
The main issue I have with the 65KK theory is that Lavos is millions upon millions of years old.
Why is that an issue, out of curiosity? The Entity is likewise "millions upon millions" of years old (depending on how Lavos traveled to Earth, the Entity may or may not be "older").
he'd be completely undetectable within his safe little dimension, and even if some advanced race could find him, they'd appear to challenge him instantly after he created the Pocket Dimension, since Lavos would now be on Time Error with the timelines laid out before him in their entirety.
Why would they appear instantly after the PD was created? By that logic, Crono and Co would have then appeared at the End of Time instantly upon its "creation" (or, to use a game marker, Gaspar and Crono would have appeared at the End of Time at the exact same instant), wouldn't they? Well, I suppose if the gathered information about Lavos (to know that he was even there) in a manner that didn't itself use Time Error (Crono and Co experiencing Time Error repeatedly in their travels, and thus being able to appear to Lavos at a Time Error point after the PD was created), then they might appear instantly. But would such even be possible?
Side note: Unless we assume that after the Day of Lavos human civilization slowly decayed (rather than being nearly obliterated from day 1), the Guardian had to have been built before 1999AD. After that point, there would have been no one to have built it. But I seem to recall that if Crono and Co hadn't faced a boss yet, Lavos wouldn't imitate it (specifically, if on a New Game+ one faces Lavos before the Fated Hour). Is my memory just horrible or does that seem correct to others? If so, then that would strongly indicate that Lavos is drawing on the memories of Crono and Co (not the planet, not its own experience).
Further Side Note: I looked through the Encyclopedia and didn't find "65KK Theory" or any references to it. Would I be correct in assuming that this is just stating that Lavos physically burrowed into the earth and slept there, removing the PD and all that it entails?
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Okay I think it's time that we finally settle on wether this so called Pocket Dimension theory is a flawed or a legitimate theory...
Facts:
- Lavos appears in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen is beaten (point I on my diagram).
- If the party defeated Lavos's shell earlier in the game, Lavos will be without shell (well, without "head" more precisely) there.
Issue:
- According to the Pocket Dimension theory and the Time Error principle, Lavos shouldn't even be able to appear in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since his Pocket Dimension has already been dissolved at point D. He also never appeared at that date in the original timeline (no Black Omen back then).
Well, there you have it.... all the facts that any theory trying to resolve this issue should be based upon and the issue that the Pocket Dimension theory has since been presentend with.
However, there is something wrong with the stated issue. Lavos may not have been able to appear in 12000bc through the Black Omen (as there simply never was a Black Omen in that timeline), but did, very much so, appeared during the Ocean Palace disater in the original timeline.
Flawed solution (in case you're wondering):
- Perhaps Lavos simply never dissolved his PD? He wouldn't have exited it in 1999 A.D. and continued to live within it on Death Peak. This doesn't work, because even if Lavos didn't exit his PD at point D, his Destruction Rain would still have exited it, and thus the Rain would still appear in 1999 A.D. at point J, destroying the world.
How does something like that even work, exactly? How in hell does Lavos just never exits his Pocket Dimension and yet "continued to live within it on Death Peak"? As for the Destruction Rain form the Heavens, I am forced to raise a similiar objection to it. How in heavens name is the Destruction Rain allowed to leave that dimension's realm of existence? I was under the impression that a Pocket Dimension should be considered exactly as such, a completely different plane of existence that shouldn't be even able to manifest its presence physically unto that of any of the other regular dimensions, with a different time flow principle altogether. How does that rain, specifcally, not fall anywhere but inside of the actual Pocket Dimension?
It's complicated, so let's consider the second diagram, which corresponds to what the game should be if we discard the Pocket Dimension theory. Lavos would be a normal inhabitant of the timeline and the Apocalypse a normal event of history rather than the result of him entering the timeline from somewhere else (a Pocket Dimension). Surprisingly, the diagram is heavily simplified in this scenario (I kept the same letters for consistency).
Yes, it s. Very much so, I would say. Everything is incredibly much more simplified if we take the other theory's statements and go with them. If we ditch the Pocket Dimension theory, however, several other 'issues' are bound to be presented to us. Like, for instance, the issue with the 'missing head', that the actual theory was initially created for. Let us try and take care of all problems, and settle once and for all on the most viable theory, then.
In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).
Yes. Like you said, a very plausible solution to the head problem, within this theory, would be to have the Lavos from 1999ad time traveling to past, to the actual point in time at which the party decided to confront him (which according the game's canon, should be done in 12000bc). Nicely, this takes care of almost all problems for us. As this theory, does in fact, take into account the fact that he could very well be confronted in any of the other time periods as well (with the exception of 2300ad). This also deals with the problem of the 'ever-present' undestroyable head that Lavos has during the Ocean Palace incident. If the Pocket Dimension theory was initially created to solve a 'missing-head' kind of issue to begin with, why can't this other theory be considered a more plausible and legitimate one, when it effectively solves another 'head-related' issue, that wasn't even its focus in the first place?
We can leave it this way: Lavos is defeated in 12000 B.C. No paradox, no unresolvable issue. It works, I think.
As for what to do with the Armageddon-Branch theory, we'll discuss that in another thread because there's probably too much stuff here already (I hope this post made sense).
Yes, it works. Perfectly in accordance with Chrono Cross, as well. As for what the actual Armageddon-Branch theory's status is concerned, I thought it had been discarded as a legitimate one already, because of some other unrelated issues with the Pocket Dimension theory were found. I could be wrong on that, however.
EDIT: Actually, the "flawed" solution can work if we say that exiting a Pocket Dimension doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (alpha's suggestion of existing both "in and out of time"), and that Lavos created his PD at point B (like V_Translanka once suggested (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,672.msg6831.html#msg6831)). Thus his defeat in the PD would prevent the Apocalypse, but not the Fall of Zeal which was caused by a non-PD Lavos. Thoughts?
Okay, and now for your suggestions to actually fix and salvage the much regarded 'Pocket Dimension' theory. First of all, this is assuming way too much stuff in the first place already, that was never even stated in the game (should not even be considered canon). This is problematic, not only for the fact that theories should only be based on as much sound and solid in-game evidence to be viable; but also as a result of it making further assumptions basing itself from these things.
The potential problems I see with making these further assumptions for the theory are as follows:
Why would exiting a Pocket Dimension, not grant Time Traveler's Immunity? This would effectively establish an exception to the TTI Theory itself, and would thus put in jeopardy (if left unexplained correctly) its validity as a theory itself. Indeed, if exiting a Pocket Dimension wouldn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity more problems would be raised than those that it is actually alleged to solve.
As alpha mentioned previously in the thread, a valid objection to this further assumption would be that you can actually still very much go to 2300ad, after having defeated Lavos' 'shell' during 1999ad. You can still watch the Day of Lavos video, and can in fact perfectly see the Destruction Rain falling nto the world. The only explanation offered was that 'destroying' his actual 'shell' wouldn't stop the rain from happening, as another part of Lavos is indeed, still alive and well inside.
Now, considering that the actual rain is spread from his 'shell' and the fact that the only time in which he actually uses this ability against the party is during that fight, I wouldn't think for him to still be able to call upon it after his shell has been defeated.
As for some of the other problems that I noticed, I don't think that the 'creation' of a Pocket Dimension at specific strategic points during the timeline would 'fly' with what the current explanations of what a 'pocket' dimension actually is and how they work at all.
The only other problem left in my mind, would be to come up with a plausible explanation of how then, did Lavos managed to get the Darkness Beyond Time, upon its defeat at the hands of Crono and Co.? I could offer a very simple solution to this. Lavos, being somewhat of a Time-controlling entity (as is demonstrated by the fact that he was the one to send the Gurus and Janus on a 'trip' through the timeline), actually made a 'special' kind of gate for himself, that was more like a 'dimensional-vortex', where he would be able to have a more 'complete' control over all of Time itself. Thus, he shunted himself to the Darkness Beyond Time... where upon all discarded Timelines are sent to, grabbing Shcala (who was near the Mammon Machine, that had a part of his being inside of it, i.e. The Frozen Flame) along in the process, for the simple fact that she was very close to another part of him.
Any problems left? :D
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Well, the one true explanation is that the guardian was already created... The domes were already in working order as we can see in 1999 AD... So with no technology since 2400 ad is a wasteland it must be considered that the guardian was built before 1999 ad.
I think this solves it.
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I'll hold off from confronting this until this analysis review is completed. To tie up loose ends that may not need tying:
This is a bit late in coming, though still relevant to present discussion, so allow me to comment. If Lavos having his "head" in point 1/ (when he appears and kills Crono) can be a gameplay inconsistency, why can't Lavos not having his "head" in point 2/ (when he appears in 12,000 BC for the final battle) also be a gameplay inconsistency? In point 1/, you're supposed to lose to Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. In point 2/, you are supposed to continue fighting Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. Indeed, it is only if one acts irrationally that point 2/ is even possible. Certainly it would be a curious situation for the team to have defeated Lavos' maw, realized that there was something inside, then run away to an earlier period to battle him again. It is a result of a player intentionally testing the system, rather than the character's testing the story.
Good points.
Why would they appear instantly after the PD was created? By that logic, Crono and Co would have then appeared at the End of Time instantly upon its "creation" (or, to use a game marker, Gaspar and Crono would have appeared at the End of Time at the exact same instant), wouldn't they? Well, I suppose if the gathered information about Lavos (to know that he was even there) in a manner that didn't itself use Time Error (Crono and Co experiencing Time Error repeatedly in their travels, and thus being able to appear to Lavos at a Time Error point after the PD was created), then they might appear instantly. But would such even be possible?
We can think of it in terms of Time Error. When the Entity sends Gaspar to the End of Time, he's there until the moment of Time Error at which the Entity causes Marle's pendant to react with the Telepod Gate. Even then, we've still got a bunch of Time Error periods while Crono and the others travel to 600 A.D. and 2300 A.D. Contrarily, for the "2600 A.D. Lavos Attack Squad", we can say that if such an agency does no time traveling before going to the Pocket Dimension to confront Lavos, they'd instantly appear. But yeah...this approach works both ways. A temporal agency would definitely experimentally test time travel before using it to attack Lavos, so he'd have a lot of time to prepare. Okay, this is all dismissed.
Further Side Note: I looked through the Encyclopedia and didn't find "65KK Theory" or any references to it. Would I be correct in assuming that this is just stating that Lavos physically burrowed into the earth and slept there, removing the PD and all that it entails?
Why is that an issue, out of curiosity? The Entity is likewise "millions upon millions" of years old (depending on how Lavos traveled to Earth, the Entity may or may not be "older").
Yes, that's what it entails. I no longer have an issue with it.
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What if the shell is the actual gateway to the Pocket Dimension? Wouldn't this make a bit more sense than saying that Lavos travelled in and out of the PD?
Think on this: Say Lavos is in the PD. He triggers the Day of Lavos by making the shell rise out of the planet's crust. Instead of coming out of the shell, he attacks through the shell and, therefore, through the barrier of the PD. Say that you defeat his shell. Based on what we know, and coupled with my theory that the shell exists as the gateway to the PD from the Chronoverse, what if Lavos takes genetic material (as we know he needs it to create his spawns and that's what he feeds on to survive throughout the years) and uses that genetic material as a sort of mini-spawn? He shifts the entry point from the destroyed shell to a new piece of genetic material, and over the years Lavos' energy manipulates it until it has become a new shell.
That would solve the problem of how you could still see a shell causing the Destruction Rain even though you would have defeated a shell previously. This also solves the problem of how if you destroy the shell, it can still cause the Destruction Rain (which would be Lavos firing through the shell), although the shell you'd see in 1999 is still destroyed. Perhaps it takes millenia for a new shell to be completely generated, so Lavos would have had to make do.
Of course, that means that Crono and his party actually enter the PD to destroy Lavos once and for all.
This is my half-decent attempt at combining the PD theory with the "what if Lavos actually existed in the timeline".
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Naw, the PD theory is likely completely bunk anyways. There is no true reason for it and not really any evidence in favor of it either. This probably really is a paradox.
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Well were trying to make it... not... a paradox. (loss of vocabulary there) So don't rule it out just yet, if it can explain paradoxes let it be, until we find a better solution, eric.
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Wait, what is the paradox again?
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Wait, what is the paradox again?
Lavos is fought in 1999, Lavos copies a boss from 2300.... Is that really a paradox?
Regardless, I have to agree with Z that the Guardian was likely active before 1999. Then again Lavos' abilities to manipulate space/time may allow him to emulate things from his own future.
Edit after reading through everything, yowza!: I also have to agree that the PD theory is baseless, and is ready for retirement.
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It may be baseless, but the way I've seen people posting and wording their posts, we will keep PD in place until we formulate the theory that solves it all. I guess it's along the lines that since we have something that answers a few problems, it's better to keep it in place until we find one that answers more or all of them (as opposed to having nothing, at which point nothing is answered). Lesser of two evils, I suppose.
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Which gets back to my question (which FouCaptain answered): What paradoxes?
Or to put it another way, what does the PD Theory "solve"?
Just the Guardian boss? It was built before Lavos errupted (as I had noted a while ago), and given that Lavos only draws on creatures that the Team has person experience with, it might not be referencing time itself but rather the memories of those fighting it.
If that is all that the PD Theory is supposed to solve, then it is solved in other manners without such a problematic theory.
If we add in the curiosity of defeating Lavos' outershell in a later time period and then refacing Lavos in an earlier time period (at which point he doesn't have an active outer shell), then we are merely adding in a gameplay curiosity (along the lines of why there are less than 100 people in the world at any given time period). The game seems to assume that if one is fighting Lavos, one will continue fighting Lavos rather than running away to defeat the beasty all over again. It is only by purposely acting irrationally that this curiosity can ever be encountered. Like the lack of a sufficient human population, it is only a problem if we choose to make it a problem.
If this is what the PD theory is supposed to solve, it doesn't need solving.
So it returns to my original question: what does the PD Theory solve?
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obviously not this problem but we have seen it work in several other cases
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From what I understand, the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos shell problem. Unfortunately, one of the things I've been thinking lately is whether or not we need to solve that in the first place. If "canon" is that Crono and company defeat Lavos in 12k BC, then the concluding thought process is that they fight from start to end in 12k BC, so there's no true reasoning for the "how the heck do you fight a shell in 1000 AD and it's not there anymore in 12k BC?". At that point, the question is answered as "You don't. Canon-wise Crono and company starts the fight in 12k BC and end it in 12k BC."
No time traveling involved, so you never face it at a different point in time. The PD theory was only there to answer that silly question. Unless there's something I missed. Unfortunately, that's the reason it's baseless. Wouldn't it also be like wondering how Ioka Village has stronger weapons than Truce even though it's 65,001,000 years in the past?
However, here's a branch-off question: If you always travel through some form of gate to get to Lavos (the Bucket, the Epoch, or the gate on the right telepod at the Millenial Fair), where are you going? Why does the gate on the right telepod take you to Lavos when all gates are linked to the End of Time (understandable until you make it to the End of Time, but not understandable once you've made it there)? Does Lavos exist in some weird place in time...or perhaps he lives in gates themselves (which also goes towards explaining why the gates close after defeating Lavos...and why the party is shoved back out after the final battle)?
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The pocket dimension was the answer to that, he kinda exists out side the normal flow. I always figured as there being a distortion there, much like angulus errea (something like that). You know it is to time what opassa beach is to space, But after you reach the End of Time Lavos has prevented your entry to protect himself. I want to say Lavos understands what Crono and company are and doesn't want to wipe out the earth but instead wants to wipe only those few. He is incredibly intelligent in my opinion also, so he is waiting for them at the Ocean Palace. He succeeds also, he kills Crono. Also you can't just rule something out as being non-canon. I know what you mean, in several cases I would agree, but not here I feel this could be explained with the pocket dimension.
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From what I understand the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos fight via the Black Omen. You fight through the Omen in 12k BC, 600 AD, or 1000 AD, and you still wind up fighting Lavos in the same condition no matter which time period you encounter him in. This can be repeated 3 times, all times resulting in the same fight.
I have a better explanation than the PD theory though. I'll call it the Omen Gate theory. When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen. This is not Lavos awakening, this is a gate opening. Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos' awakening.
The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them. Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999.
So in a nutshell, you don't go into Lavos' theorized pocket dimension, the Omen becomes a gate to Lavos' emergence.
P.S. Sorry if this post was rambling, I just downed a 40 of Mickey's in the spirit of St. Patrick's day, so I'm a bit tipsy as I explain this theory. Woo!
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So, you think Queen Zeal was thinking along the lines of "Now that you've gone and defeated the Black Omen and myself, let's see you face Lavos!" Then she sends them to the Day of Lavos with the last of her power before she dies. Sort of like a failsafe?
EDIT:
I'm watching the speed run of Chrono Trigger atm, and I just noticed something. It's quite a resemblance between the Guardian and the final battle with Lavos. Both have "bits", both "bits" regenerate, and there's a countdown for both (hmm....). This kind of makes me wonder whether Lavos is emulating the Guardian...or if the Guardian is emulating Lavos.
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From what I understand the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos fight via the Black Omen. You fight through the Omen in 12k BC, 600 AD, or 1000 AD, and you still wind up fighting Lavos in the same condition no matter which time period you encounter him in. This can be repeated 3 times, all times resulting in the same fight.
I have a better explanation than the PD theory though. I'll call it the Omen Gate theory. When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen. This is not Lavos awakening, this is a gate opening. Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos' awakening.
The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them. Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999.
Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.
I'm watching the speed run of Chrono Trigger atm, and I just noticed something. It's quite a resemblance between the Guardian and the final battle with Lavos. Both have "bits", both "bits" regenerate, and there's a countdown for both (hmm....). This kind of makes me wonder whether Lavos is emulating the Guardian...or if the Guardian is emulating Lavos.
Well to me it seems like this is just something a lot games do to make a fight more difficult, but if anything Lavos is most likely the mimic. I'm thinking that since he lives outside the normal flow could he destroy the earth and still absorb the destroyed and prosperous future's DNA? Maybe he never intended to leave the planet? What if he was changing history to get more DNA, that of Mutants and Robots(haha I'm an idiot because I think robots have DNA, you know what I meant)? Is it possible that he could have been attacking different crucial time periods that if he were to wipe out the dominant race at the right time to allow another race to evolve to their fullest and take their DNA then wipe them out? He couldn't have done it with the Reptites because he sorta wipes them out at his landing, but what if it was his plan to make machines take over? I guess I'm kinda rambling, but you get my point... I hope.
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Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.
Problem there is that it is quite difficult to make an argument from this, as no sane individual would fight lavos, beat the outer shell, then time travel to the past (600AD) in hopes of fighting the outer shell all over again. One has to purposely attempt to test the limits of time in order to discover it, so it is difficult to know if this was intentional and part of Lavos, or if this was just a video game short cut (sort of like how there are no farms in the world; we aren't supposed to take that as evidence that society never got above hunter/gatherers).
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Lavos altering the genetic pattern of evolution is understandable, as that's his goal: to take the best DNA of the world and let the rest rot to pieces. He's like the Borg of the Chronoverse.
Wow, that's a horrible analogy, but you guys get that picture.
If we were to run with a mixture of the PD theory and a DNA theory, you'd only be able to get away with saying Lavos is in a PD so that he could muck with many different worlds at the same time (or, if you really want to mess with the entire thought process, to say that the PD can access multiple time lines). That'd be the only real reason I could see getting away with a PD, but unfortunately there's no grounding for it from in-game evidence. The way I feel it's described, the Lavos race lands on a planet, one per planet, draws the best DNA genetic material from the world, and then destroys it as a by-product of giving birth to Lavos spawns. These spawns then do the same thing: during their birth they are sent off to more planets, and they, in turn, continue the cycle of DNA manipulation, destroying the planet they are in, and then their spawns moving on. If that's not correct, then by all means, correct me please.
I can understand Lavos mimicking genetic material (heck, if it's a boss, the DNA must be good enough for Lavos to absorb) in the shell battle. But, my thought is how can Lavos mimic the Guardian if it's not genetic? Perhaps there is some genetic material, but the Guardian itself is a programmed machine. That'd be like saying Lavos absorbed the DNA of Robo.
Perhaps the people of the 1900s in the Chronoverse knew of Lavos (quite possibly by that time frame they knew what was going on), and had studied him to a certain extant. With all that knowledge, they could have tried to fight fire with fire, knowing that at some point Lavos would erupt from within the planet. So, they built multiple Guardians (each with the respective Bits) in an attempt to create an army which would be capable of defending against Lavos.
And as far as how Lavos mimics the Guardian, perhaps it's not so much an actual alteration like the game shows it to be, but perhaps it's a jog to the memory. Like, if I'm fighting Lavos and he suddenly starts using techniques from the Guardian or even Yakra, I'm probably not going to see a big flashy image of either show up out of nowhere and get "absorbed" by Lavos. I'll probably be fighting him, then he'll use Yakra Needle after maybe a flash of light for a second (not an image), and when he uses Yakra Needle, I'll be like "Oh, I remember Yakra doing that!". We don't get to see what characters are thinking, so maybe the visual effect that we view on our screens is nothing more than a visual representation of the characters going, "Ah, I remember <boss> doing that!"
And to make things a bit more interesting while answering the question of how Lavos can perform the same attacks...well, he is altering the DNA of the world through manipulation so as to get the best possible DNA over the years...chances are a bit of the world is Lavos...ian (don't know what the best terminology would be). Lavos probably infused his DNA to give the world a jump start.
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Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.
Problem there is that it is quite difficult to make an argument from this, as no sane individual would fight lavos, beat the outer shell, then time travel to the past (600AD) in hopes of fighting the outer shell all over again. One has to purposely attempt to test the limits of time in order to discover it, so it is difficult to know if this was intentional and part of Lavos, or if this was just a video game short cut (sort of like how there are no farms in the world; we aren't supposed to take that as evidence that society never got above hunter/gatherers).
I understand that but I'd rather find a canon reason for it, even if it isn't necessary I try my best to avoid to claim things as a gaming device. It was be more sane, but really the only things I want to claim as that are like weapons. Why would the future depend on swords or crossbows? Swords maybe as a symbol of honor, many cultures still in fact do that, but a electrically charged one or a crossbow?
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Maybe the best explanation is not "game mechanics messed up because programmers didn't have foresight".
What if we went off a mixture? Such as, we say there are certain things that game mechanics allow to happen because it's a game. But don't we tend to overlook things caused by game mechanics? In fact, even though I haven't played CC in a few years, doesn't the plotline include Crono defeating Lavos in 12k BC? As in, plotline wise, Crono fights Lavos in 12k BC during the Ocean Palace and defeats it, right?
If that's the case, then the whole point is moot. You don't get to run away from that fight, and you'd kill it and that would be it. No arriving at from a different point in time.
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I didn't even remember them mention the Ocean Palace? How could they? All they knew was of Zeal, and maybe it did or did not exist. For all we know the Black Omen was around.
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Well, where is the information stated that brought about the conclusion that Crono defeated Lavos in 12,000 BC? IIRC it is stated somewhere in Chronopolis, correct? If so, then wouldn't we have to assume that it's meant to be Crono defeating Lavos the first time fighting it?
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If it's the time where he died and Zeal fell... no, considering it has to happen.
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Well were trying to make it... not... a paradox. (loss of vocabulary there) So don't rule it out just yet, if it can explain paradoxes let it be, until we find a better solution, eric.
Well, if I remember correctly, wasn't the PD theory originally created primarily to explain this Guardian problem? If the PD theory is moot, then it can't be used to address this issue.
Whoops, just figured out that I missed about a page of argument before responding to this. Oh well, I don't feel like editing it now.
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Okay, I take Zeality's Chronology chronology guide as what I go off of, and reading the one at gamefaqs (unless something has been changed), in Keystone T-2, it states the following chain of events for 12000 B.C.
Keystone T-2, of course, is what the "original" timeline of Chrono Cross was. So, we can basically say that if T-2 is where CC starts (barring Project Kid for now), we get this chain of events in 12k BC:
-The Ocean Palace rises as the Black Omen, commanded by a Lavos-appeasing
Queen Zeal.
-Crono's party travels to the End of Time to consult Gaspar about reviving
Crono.
-Crono's party comes in from 1000 A.D. to enter the Black Omen.
-Crono's party defeats Queen Zeal, who warps the party into the Mammon Machine.
-Crono's party defeats the Mammon Machine.
-Crono's party defeats Queen Zeal a second time.
-Queen Zeal awakens Lavos to battle the party.
-Crono's party battles Lavos and enters the shell.
-Crono's party defeats the first Lavos form.
-Lavos mutates into the best combination of collected DNA possible.
-Crono's party defeats Lavos's last form.
-The defeated Lavos presumably finds itself in the Darkness Beyond TIme and
begins merging with Schala, who came in from the Ocean Palace.
-Crono's party returns to 1000 A.D.
-Magus arrives to search for Schala.
For those that need to take a look-see at it in case you want to make certain I'm pulling from the right "dimension", you can find this guide at: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/196917/28014
Okay, so this forces me to modify my original thinking. So, it's not the first time Crono fights Lavos (because he dies and then everyone warps around doing things before finally bringing Crono back to life). However, T-2 never mentions going in and fighting and then coming back out to do it again in a different timeline. I think if we see the entire series as one coherent timeline as opposed to seeing Chrono Trigger here and Chrono Cross over there, we'd have a much easier time on our hands.
If we do that, and we go with some of the things I've been saying, we can use the following assumptions:
1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt. In addition, Lavos has been mucking with the genetic material of everything in the planet's history, so some of his abilities might have been transferred in the process. Therefore, other enemies are using their versions of abilities which stem from Lavos' genetic material, meaning they are the ones emulating Lavos, not Lavos emulating them. With Lavos about to erupt, if they accomplished enough research, the future might have been able to create a clone set of Lavos, i.e., the Guardian, and might have been planning to attack Lavos with hundreds or thousands of Guardians (with bits).
2.) If the entire Chronoverse is seen as a whole, both CT and CC together, and not as separates, then by stating that Crono defeats Lavos in 12,000 B.C., we find no need (barring game mechanics and people who make mountains out of molehills) to fight Lavos at different eras. Crono, in the T-2 dimension, begins, continues through, and finally ends the fight with Lavos, killing him in 12,000 B.C.
3.) Lavos exists within our timeline, and not a pocket dimension. Otherwise, when Crono defeats him, he would still erupt in 1999 A.D., causing the same problems, meaning nothing gets solved. If Lavos exists in our timeline, by defeating him, Crono has altered the timeline and therefore prevented the Day of Lavos.
These three assumptions clean up the PD theory problem nicely, in my opinion. The main problems with which the PD theory found its creation were: 1) How is the shell defeated in the past if you defeated it in the future (which of course is a game mechanic that in a living version of the story would not be a feasible idea and is nothing more than a programmer oversight); and 2) How does Lavos "emulate" the Guardian, which exists in 2300 A.D.?
The only question I have is this: We've basically said that each of the main dimensions (we agree there are multi-dimensions out there, but they don't ever touch, and the Chronoverse does not function on a "anything that can happen does" thought) has their own DBT. With the PD theory, we have two main problems that we don't if we nix the PD theory and use the above assumptions.
Problem A: If Lavos is in a separate dimension, then even destroying him won't have an effect. So far, we haven't ruled out DTI (Dimensional Traveler Immunity), meaning Lavos' appearance from the PD would still occur on Keystone. We know this can't be the case.
Problem B: If each dimension has it's own Darkness Beyond Time (DBT), and Lavos' PD, while a adjunct to the Keystone, still fucntions as a separate dimension, then wouldn't both the Keystone and the PD have their own separate DBTs? This would mean that Lavos could not merge with Schala (she fell from Keystone, Lavos from the PD), and that also can't be the case.
If there's no PD, Problem A doesn't occur, as he is part of the timeline and destroying him removes him from the Keystone from that point forward. Same goes for Problem B, as Lavos is in the Keystone timeline and therefore gets junked to the Keystone DBT, along with Schala.
I hope I'm getting this somewhat explainable.
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Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.
The flow of time in relation to the gate's destinations to 1999 AD is halted. In lay terms, every time you leave 1999 AD and come back you arrive at the precise moment that you left. To Crono and the gang they can spend hours or days after destroying the shell doing anything, but to Lavos, they destroyed his shell, walked to a gate and came right back.
Time conservation causes all gates to react in this manner, including the ones created by the Omen.
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I'm pretty sure thats not right Fou. If I remember correctly in the explanation according to the analysis articles the compendium currently holds, it says that you can only travel through years, thats what makes Lucca's red gate so special.
And stenir, I think I understand what you mean but you misunderstood me, which is my fault. I know I said outside the normal flow of time but I didn't mean a completely different dimension, I just ment it isn't in the NORMAL flow. Almost like he is constantly in a gate. That would prevent problem A. More over, isn't there only one DBT? Every dimension shares the same one right? I'm pretty sure Zeality explained this to me when I was extremely nubish. That would fix Problem B.
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I'm pretty sure thats not right Fou. If I remember correctly in the explanation according to the analysis articles the compendium currently holds, it says that you can only travel through years, thats what makes Lucca's red gate so special.
So what exactly are you saying is wrong about what I said? I'm stating that in repeated trips through the Lavos gate, the time of entrance coincides with the last time of exit from that time period. This prevents two problems from happening.
1. The party doesn't come back to find themselves fighting Lavos from a previous sojourn into 1999.
2. The party doesn't leave Lavos alone in 1999 long enough for him to proceed with destroying the planet before they come back to the time period again.
I was expanding this notion to state that the Omen Gate coincides with the bucket gate, in that you will never appear before the party leaves in a previous encounter, or after the bombardment of the surface from Lavos.
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What? I mean that if you kill his outer shell he can still attack the earth, but I could beat him and travel back to the end of time then do every side quest but with in that time what would Lavos be doing? Why would he just stop? You can't just travel to the second you left.
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Why can't you? There is nothing that tells us how much time passes between when Crono Co leaves an era, and when they return. If they spend a month in 600 AD, then travel to 1000 AD, has a month passed there to? Or has it only been a day, or a few hours?
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What? I mean that if you kill his outer shell he can still attack the earth, but I could beat him and travel back to the end of time then do every side quest but with in that time what would Lavos be doing? Why would he just stop? You can't just travel to the second you left.
Why can't you? There is nothing that tells us how much time passes between when Crono Co leaves an era, and when they return. If they spend a month in 600 AD, then travel to 1000 AD, has a month passed there to? Or has it only been a day, or a few hours?
Exactly what I was saying. Because Lavos doesn't attack at all between visits it's apparent that there is little to no time difference between them. In order to preserve the battle as a continuous chain of events and stop Lavos from initiating his destruction.
Robo did have the theory that some entity was controlling the gates, and perhaps this is one giant justification for that theory. While trips between other gates such as 65mBC and 600AD had some apparent flow of time between visits, coinciding with relevant events for our protagonists to assist in, there was no flow of time between trips through the 1999AD gate. This would support the idea that an entity was controlling the destinations of the gates quite precisely, and each gate was controlled in a unique manner that was beneficial to our heroes' cause.
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Relativistic Flow Principle
The rate of time in each time period should not be the same. Relativistic effects produced by changes in the earth and sun's velocity would result in minute time dilations. Motion and mass have effects on the speed of time. As a simple example, a ball bounced on a train takes longer to bounce to someone on the station platform than to someone on the train with it. Thus, each time period would have its own relative time rate, dependent on relativistic factors. This introduces a further complexity to the Time Error axiom. Time Gate apertures and Epoch destinations follow the natural flow of time in their era, but since the time rate of each time period is unique, there would be a discrepancy in the translation of both ends of a Gate into the future. For example, if Crono were to warp from 1000 AD to 400 years in the past, the time he spent in 600 AD is not necessarily the same as the time he was away from 1000 AD. Luckily, Crono could not return to 1000 AD before he left, so there is no worry about causality. For most time periods this discrepancy should be very small, perhaps on the order of seconds. However, 65 million BC might experience a significant time dilation.
That's what I'm referring to. the time difference between periods is a couple of minutes at most.
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Relativistic Flow Principle
The rate of time in each time period should not be the same. Relativistic effects produced by changes in the earth and sun's velocity would result in minute time dilations. Motion and mass have effects on the speed of time. As a simple example, a ball bounced on a train takes longer to bounce to someone on the station platform than to someone on the train with it. Thus, each time period would have its own relative time rate, dependent on relativistic factors. This introduces a further complexity to the Time Error axiom. Time Gate apertures and Epoch destinations follow the natural flow of time in their era, but since the time rate of each time period is unique, there would be a discrepancy in the translation of both ends of a Gate into the future. For example, if Crono were to warp from 1000 AD to 400 years in the past, the time he spent in 600 AD is not necessarily the same as the time he was away from 1000 AD. Luckily, Crono could not return to 1000 AD before he left, so there is no worry about causality. For most time periods this discrepancy should be very small, perhaps on the order of seconds. However, 65 million BC might experience a significant time dilation.
That's what I'm referring to. the time difference between periods is a couple of minutes at most.
That is a theory, not a fact. The Compendium's articles cannot be taken as absolute in many cases, otherwise the thought process becomes stagnant.
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Hehe, What do I say now?
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1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt.
There isn't much of an indication that humans of that time period were aware of Lavos (the only indicator being the record calls the Apocalypse "The Day of Lavos").
Such a stance has to assume a lot (people were aware of Lavos, having obtained this information in an unknown manner, were able to analyze Lavos is a likewise unknown manner, and actively attempted to create weapons to use for his eventual rise). It is much easier (and just as valid) to assume that the Guardian was created before the day of Lavos for security reasons that had nothing to do with Lavos. Same effect, but doesn't unnecessarily assume that humans of 1998 were aware of Lavos.
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- Also imitates the attacks and HP of the Dragon Tank, the Guardian, the Heckran, Zombor, Masa&Mune, Nizbel, Magus, Azala and the Black Tyrano, and Giga Gaia.
not sure if anyone else said this, but its possible that lavos somehow reads the minds and experiences of the party to some extent, and mimicks their previous big battles. that way, lavos could see the memory of the guardian battle even though it was in the ruined future.. and that would probably fit with the time theories.
that seems like the most straightforward answer to me.
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by the way, this is sort of on a tangent, but i wanted to post this-
lavos uses time warps to different eras because each era corresponds to a certain powerful attack he can use.
ive figured them out-
65000000 BC - Grand Stone / Ultimate Physical Attack
12000 BC - Invading Light / Slow
600 AD - Evil Star / Reduces Party's HP By Half
1000 AD - Spell / Random Status
2300 AD - Dreamless / Ultimate Magic Attack
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1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt. In addition, Lavos has been mucking with the genetic material of everything in the planet's history, so some of his abilities might have been transferred in the process. Therefore, other enemies are using their versions of abilities which stem from Lavos' genetic material, meaning they are the ones emulating Lavos, not Lavos emulating them. With Lavos about to erupt, if they accomplished enough research, the future might have been able to create a clone set of Lavos, i.e., the Guardian, and might have been planning to attack Lavos with hundreds or thousands of Guardians (with bits).
2.) If the entire Chronoverse is seen as a whole, both CT and CC together, and not as separates, then by stating that Crono defeats Lavos in 12,000 B.C., we find no need (barring game mechanics and people who make mountains out of molehills) to fight Lavos at different eras. Crono, in the T-2 dimension, begins, continues through, and finally ends the fight with Lavos, killing him in 12,000 B.C.
3.) Lavos exists within our timeline, and not a pocket dimension. Otherwise, when Crono defeats him, he would still erupt in 1999 A.D., causing the same problems, meaning nothing gets solved. If Lavos exists in our timeline, by defeating him, Crono has altered the timeline and therefore prevented the Day of Lavos.
Umm.. What if we just say that the Guardian was built before the DoL. And he can regenerate his shell over a long period of time. Say 400 years at the least? Wouldn't that solve all the problems?
Problem A: If Lavos is in a separate dimension, then even destroying him won't have an effect. So far, we haven't ruled out DTI (Dimensional Traveler Immunity), meaning Lavos' appearance from the PD would still occur on Keystone. We know this can't be the case.
Problem B: If each dimension has it's own Darkness Beyond Time (DBT), and Lavos' PD, while a adjunct to the Keystone, still functions as a separate dimension, then wouldn't both the Keystone and the PD have their own separate DBTs? This would mean that Lavos could not merge with Schala (she fell from Keystone, Lavos from the PD), and that also can't be the case.
We don't need to worry about the pocket dimension if he can regenerate. And we wouldn't need to worry about the DBT if he lives within out time line. Maybe we were just over thinking it.
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by the way, this is sort of on a tangent, but i wanted to post this-
lavos uses time warps to different eras because each era corresponds to a certain powerful attack he can use.
ive figured them out-
65000000 BC - Grand Stone / Ultimate Physical Attack
12000 BC - Invading Light / Slow
600 AD - Evil Star / Reduces Party's HP By Half
1000 AD - Spell / Random Status
2300 AD - Dreamless / Ultimate Magic Attack
Interesting! I never noticed the correlation between time shifts and attacks. Good find!
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Very interesting indeed. I wonder why the team limited those attacks to those time periods.