Author Topic: Smart Time  (Read 4511 times)

Mr Bekkler

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Smart Time
« on: June 16, 2009, 02:42:33 pm »
I've been trying to wrap my head around some of the time traveler theories here, and a lot of them have good points, but there's always a loophole, and nothing is completely explainable.

With the KISS method in mind (Keep it Simple, Stupid...Not "Love Gun" KISS) I have a (possibly) new idea on the matter.

What if there is no logical or equatable explanation?

Smart time. A timeline that learns from its own mistakes. Or rather, the entity or guiding force of time learns from said mistakes. Paradox=mistake.


What if it's literally an entity shaping the timeline like a tube of clay, and the Marle paradox is only the first "hole" in the tube that the entity "learned from" so it didn't happen again?

Until Lavos pops out, that is. That makes a "bigger" hole, and the DBT is simply outside of the tube. In this case, the entity is just trying to keep everything in.

In CC's case, the tube forks into two tunnels, and looks like a tuning fork. When you travel through dimensions, you're going from one of the fork's teeth to the other.
In CT's case, it would probably be more like a spiral, or a warped spring. Different points in time match up and time keeps going constantly no matter where you are but the same amount of time is between each destination. You're just hopping from one coil to the next.

Gates (in both games) are where the entity has pinched them together a bit so you don't "leave" time.



so...
Any holes?


Acacia Sgt

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 06:29:04 pm »
Actually, when you time travel, you 'exit' the time line.

That's the way I see how things like TTI are possible. Here's how:

At time traveling, you go from one point of the time line to another, obviously. When traveling to the future, the thing just stops there but, going to the past makes a new time line discarding the previous to the DBT.

A time traveler is granted TTI to appear when he appeared. This means he will appear there no matter if new time lines come and go. So how is that possible? By having the time traveler not exactly time traveling through the time line, but rather outside of it.

Thing is, by not crossing through the time line, this means that only the time of arrival is granted as TTI, not the time line. If it were the other way it will mean that TTI can't preserve the action, as the time line of arrival will no longer exist, meaning: no time traveler appearing.

By not having the time traveler cross the time line, TTI is possible.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 06:39:56 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Asafigow

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 09:26:19 pm »
But can living things exist outside of time? All things we know of move feel and live in time, because time allows us to move forward. But if a person 'exits' out of time, what is there to let them move along.

Can you say loophole?

chrono eric

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 11:26:50 pm »
They travel through time (mostly) via wormholes. A wormhole is a physical object in space-time that connects two different points of space and time. Thus I never really viewed them as "exiting" the timeline in the sense that they are completely ceasing to exist within spacetime. As far as TTI is concerned, I always viewed the emergence (and disappearance via TB) of an individual within a location of space and time as the property which is conserved. If it wasn't, then conservation of energy would be violated. So, it makes sense not because of any semantics of being in the timeline or outside of it, but because if the instance of time travel wasn't conserved via TTI then huge energy conservation problems would arise.

Claxo

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 06:10:19 pm »
The one thing that makes this particular theory interesting and what I feel is very close to how time and dimensional travel work in the Chronoverse is the part of the Entity playing the guiding force behind it.

Given many factors, such as 'discarded' timelines ending up in the DBT, the need for TTI and TB just to name a few, an outside force such as the Entity would almost be required to keep track of it all and to oversee that the many changes that occur fit together without unraveling everything into one big paradoxal mess.

For example, in quantum physics, the Many-World's Theory states that for every possible outcome, multiple universes are created to accomodate each outcome. With this, each change to the timeline that Crono and co. create would thus render any previous timelines as simply another dimension. As such, they weren't so much traveling through time but hopping from one dimension to another as their actions forced one outcome of events over another. However, what creates a problem in the Chronoverse according to this theory is that upon returning to the times from which they are originally from, they do not run into what would be their alternate selves (which would occur in dimensional travel). There is also the matter of changed timelines ending up in the DBT rather than being an alternate dimension.
This lends credit to a force such as the Entity shaping not so much the timeline as the world itself in order to accomodate any changes made to the timeline by Crono and co. Those pieces of events where are no longer a part of the timeline end up in the DBT, which is seen as sort of the dumping ground of changed timelines.

To hop off the subject for a moment, I've never seen the DBT as a place where discarded timelines are placed. To me, it seemed like a place where all things - the dreams of the world - are kept, being removed and placed back as necessary. Anyhow...

Theories such as TTI and TB in this case are more akin to tools used by the Entity to ensure that time travelers remain unchanged themselves in order to allow them to continue with their efforts. I think, though, that in order keep some sort of balance, these particular tools have to apply to all time travelers, as I'm sure the Entity wouldn't use them on those that wish to bring about an end to the world.

As for the dimensional travel in CC, given that I believe its been stated that such is a rare occurance, events leading up to the 50/50 chance of Serge living and dying made for an ideal spot for the Entity to split the world into two to allow for the various events in the game to unfold as they did.

The thing with the Chronoverse that I've come to the conclusion of is that no real world theories can be applied without adding in a force such as the Entity to help keep it all together. While I don't really agree that the timeline itself or the Entity is learning from its mistakes, I do feel that its shaping of time and space much like modeling clay is a very good example and one of the better theories of time travel in the Chronoverse.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 05:08:07 pm »
Well put, and I'm glad you like my imagery.

Truthordeal

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 10:42:17 pm »
A timeline that fixes itself...wouldn't that make the events of the Chrono Series moot then?

No wait, I'm thinking about it wrong, aren't I? The events of the Chrono Series is how the timeline fixes itself.

Interesting theory, and it certainly makes sense seeing as how everything fit so perfectly into the game play as to empower the characters enough to fix time.

Of course, this is keeping the fourth wall intact, and not discussing the obvious reasons for why everything fit so well.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 10:57:13 pm »
No wait, I'm thinking about it wrong, aren't I? The events of the Chrono Series is how the timeline fixes itself.

Exactly what I'm saying. The universe of Chrono Trigger is an amalgam of mythologies and pieces of several concentrated histories kind of smooshed together. What better enabler for the story than a "God" of Time?

The End of Time is always the same. No matter what you change, Gaspar and Spekkio sit in the same spot, and the same structure is around them. Which means that there is a "destiny" for time. There is a common end-point to all different possibilities, which suggests a guiding force. That, plus the mentioning of an "Entity" brings up the idea that none of it is equatable, and it is just a monomyth; an epic with magic and mythology and archetypes that carry the story. In such stories there is always some supernatural force embuing the characters with abilities. In Ancient Greco/Roman stories it's the gods. In a Norse epic with Sigmund (I forget what it's called) it's a dragon's blood that is drank. In Star Wars it's the Force. In The Matrix it's the Matrix. In Chrono Trigger it's the Entity. Just because it's not used in battle the time travel aspect of the game is usually not seen as a "power" or "magic". But it is the power bestowed upon these characters to get the job done. What they CALL magic in the game comes from something else entirely!

So that's what I think it is. A "Time God" or a sentient planet that literally fixes itself. There's already a "God of War" and he's...probably not the entity.

Truthordeal

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 11:04:28 pm »
Sounds feasible, and epic I might add.

EDIT: It would also explain why everyone despite TTI and the power they gained was inevitably unable to control time(even Belthasar, a genius).

And, you know, the planet pulling Dinopolis through another dimension to counter balance Chronopolis being sent back through the Time Crash.

Yeah, you know...this is a very simple and reasonable explanation. I like it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 11:12:19 pm by Truthordeal »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 11:14:24 pm »
I wanted to add that while the commonly accepted theory also suggests an entity, my theory is different in that the emphasis on the entity is greater. I find it unreasonable to blame the Marle paradox on said entity and then assume it just lets everything else figure itself out.

In other words, instead of TTI or TB, the Entity is simply responsible for it all.

TTI and TB can easily be replaced with the simple concept of "destiny", as in the team was "destined" to find a gate and prevent a paradox. That is the entity urging them to a gate to end up where they need to be, and preserving their memory in the process.

(The Entity may even be considered the person playing the game. You are the god of time and you control these people to save their world. I've put much less thought into this idea, but it seems plausible at the moment.)

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 02:49:10 pm »
Reading back on this, I don't think I was very clear. also I wanted to add a bit.

This theory is that timelines are rarely, if ever actually, discarded into the DBT (area outside the clay)

Just looking at Chrono Trigger, back in 1995 it seemed like small decisions made big changes, but if you really look at it, the game's overworlds, with the exception of Zeal, stay the same the whole time. Nothing you do in Prehistory accidentally erases civilization. Nothing you do in Zeal has an effect on 1999 or 2300AD. As I mentioned before, the End of Time is consistently right where you left it, a common endpoint, never discarded.

The multiverse for Chrono Cross works if you imagine there are at the very least two "tubes". When the Dino timeline and the Human timeline merge, some of one color mixes with some of the other color and you end up with the colorful world we were presented with.

Smart time basically assumes that only really big changes, like the planet-killer timeline-immune Lavos/TD/DD, can actually do any harm, and the heroes chosen basically have no choice but to fulfill their roles, with Gates really just being holes in the parts of the clay that touch. It is the reason Belthasar could have actually achieved what would have been impossible if, say, the butterfly effect were featured instead. Smart time is almost the opposite of the butterfly effect.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 09:19:05 pm »
I've wondered if discarded timelines DON'T end up at the Darkness Beyond Time, too. Applying modern quantum physics with the Chronoverse, it makes sense that most likely each timeline change is just a new universe. Essentially, there are an unlimited number of universes and each change just creates a new universe (or may not even be "created", it may just be "accessed"). So what would that leave the Darkness Beyond Time?

I feel like it's a reflection upon water. It's just an image, a remnant of the real. They aren't discarded timelines, just fragments, "memories" if you will. That would explain the strange ghost-like apparitions in the Sea of Eden in Chrono Cross (at least to me).

utunnels

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 09:26:08 pm »
Yeah, and the gates are smarter than just a 'wormhole' in time. They are some sort of objects that can stay with the planet. They are affected by the physical laws OR they are just some dream bubbles of the planet.

For example, the planet was in position A in 600 AD, but position B in 1000 AD. If Crono traveled  just through time he would have suffered the same fate as the tower in the end of The Cat Returns (the tower collapsed and the gateway on top of it which connected the Cat Realm and the real world shifted to a random position high in the sky).

Crono: Ah, so this gate leads to Guardia, 600AD...
[He walks into the gate...but ends up in a random position in the outer space]

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 10:59:13 pm »
I've wondered if discarded timelines DON'T end up at the Darkness Beyond Time, too. Applying modern quantum physics with the Chronoverse, it makes sense that most likely each timeline change is just a new universe. Essentially, there are an unlimited number of universes and each change just creates a new universe (or may not even be "created", it may just be "accessed"). So what would that leave the Darkness Beyond Time?
This theory assumes only the big changes create a new universe, the ones the Entity can't recover from. The smaller changes, especially things that would otherwise be explained by TB are just smoothed over by the Entity, for example, with Time Bastard, if you go back in time and change the future, future you disappears at the point in time where original you went back in time. With Smart Time (TM) future you never disappears, future you just happens to also find a way to go back in time, with the help of the entity.

And in this scenario, the DBT would just be the area between the universes, timelines, or tubes of clay.

Quote
I feel like it's a reflection upon water. It's just an image, a remnant of the real. They aren't discarded timelines, just fragments, "memories" if you will. That would explain the strange ghost-like apparitions in the Sea of Eden in Chrono Cross (at least to me).

Interesting take.
Yeah, and the gates are smarter than just a 'wormhole' in time. They are some sort of objects that can stay with the planet. They are affected by the physical laws OR they are just some dream bubbles of the planet.

For example, the planet was in position A in 600 AD, but position B in 1000 AD. If Crono traveled  just through time he would have suffered the same fate as the tower in the end of The Cat Returns (the tower collapsed and the gateway on top of it which connected the Cat Realm and the real world shifted to a random position high in the sky).

Crono: Ah, so this gate leads to Guardia, 600AD...
[He walks into the gate...but ends up in a random position in the outer space]


Right, to the traveler, it appears as though they're only traveling through time, because to them they are in the same "place", but we know, because of outside perspective, that the gates have to travel through space as well. It's almost like they're hugging the planet.

Xenterex

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Re: Smart Time
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2010, 01:26:32 am »
Quote
future you just happens to also find a way to go back in time, with the help of the entity. 

i think this smart time works better, in particular to the case of the guru's (and janus) still getting thrown through time holes (black portals not seen anywhere else in CT) in the modified Zeal events.