Author Topic: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?  (Read 10600 times)

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2008, 12:25:32 am »
I am curious as to if the distinction between natural and artificial, between biological and mechanical, might be a false dichotomy.
Maybe, but if both biological *and* mechanical processes are involved; it would make it apparently different from the two as it would appear to be a hybrid between the two and not indistinguishable.

To propose an analogy; humans really aren't the far from genetic engineering.  Given a hundred or two year, it is imaginable (though I'd argue unlikely) that the entire "human genome" will be the result of intentional changes on our part. Such might be termed artificial, but it is also the result of a very natural process (evolution and human enquiry).
That's kind of what I'm proposing, only the engineering uses organic and non-organic materials to make up the being referred to as "Lavos".

The Lavos we know and love may be artificial, but that doesn't mean he isn't natural as well, or that he had to have been constructed by an outside entity (... ooo, Lavos might have been The Entity from another planet gone bad!). Lavos might have made himself.
Another theory that was my original belief up until recently--until I came upon support for a new theory.

As for biological and mechanical, likewise humans aren't really that far away from fully integrated cybernetics. Our cells already contain some very foreign materials (mitochondria) that might not be "natural" (see Endosymbiotic theory).
That theory always intrigued me; that is the same situation with plants' chloroplasts IIRC, right?


All that is merely to state that Lavos might be both the created and the creator, the Bad Wolf, to compare to a Doctor Who "character." I don't see a reason to assume that it is a "weapon gone whack" to the exclusion of it being a "cosmic animal."
An interesting piece to add to your theory. I'll have to watch the series sometime. I've been meaning to ask you: Where is a good place to start?

Emulation of others is curiously a traditionally non-mechanical trait; see Doppelganger. Machines thus far have been very poor at mimicking natural life, in the real world, but excel wonderfully when they are allowed to be machines.
True, but the images of the enemies in question are displayed on screen as if they are being 'loaded', of course this could just be coincidence.

Goku's Spirit Bomb (or whatever the real, not dubbed, name of that attack was) is an obvious example.
Yep, but then again, I'm drawing much of my theory from the DBZ universe.

This is just to say that what you identify as "mechanical" might not be actually evidence of mechanisms.
Take a quick look at my previous post in this thread: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,4891.msg95105.html#msg95105
Cell was an android--so I'm deducing that so is Lavos. Being another of Toriyama's works, I'd say that the basis of my theorem is logical, though it may need pruning..

That is debatable, as it is only clearly indicated as so in the original North American release; Lavos consciously guiding evolution is not present in the original language, so that is probably an artifact of translation.
Though, I think we can both agree 'he' accelerated evolution.

One, no, the Dragon god was not comprised of organic living tissue, it was living energy. See the game script:

Quote from: Belthasar
   The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine
used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.
   In order to control the natural
   energy itself, FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.
   Their dragon-like appearances
   are just pseudo-guises...
   ...Temporary forms they take
   so that they can appear in
   this dimension.
Three things:

1. Plasma is not 'energy' by either definitions of the word:
  • Just as solids, liquids and gases are states of matter, plasma is a state of matter. [...]
  • the liquid part of the blood, lymph, and intracellular fluid in which cells are suspended.

2. I don't think we can take the Guru of Reason deductions as fact, at any rate--I'm calling into question Belthasar's character. Follow me here:
  • The Guru of Life, Melchior, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal began to corrupt his purpose by making weapons that 'destroy' life.
  • The Guru of Time, Gaspar, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal is put in a place where time itself is irrelevant.
and...
  • The Guru of Reason, Belthasar, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal constantly falls under spells of madness and megalomania; for example: putting the world at risk to save Schala through an illogically, complex method.

3. Your quote says "biological machine" suggesting living materials where involved, not to mention one of the quotes, in my previous post, from another source said: "a machine comprised of organic living tissue". So...

Second, we aren't told if Lavos allowed for the manipulation of his own "elements." We know that "Lightning," Water, Fire, and Shadow were the elements on the universe and that humans "evolved" to harness those using the planet's energy, but the distinction is made between those elements (and their source) and the magic of post-Mammon Machine Zeal. Zeal still used magic, but I don't recall there being any elemental distinction.

As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).

As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).
Would you read this article. (Too long to quote, explains itself.), it sums up my positions on magic as I concur with the author's theory/observations on this topic.

I am still rather doubtful that "Arbiter" status can apply in most cases, including this one. Serge was an Arbiter in Chronopolis, as established by those computer systems (not Lavos or the Frozen Flame), and quite separately he was established as an "Arbiter" by the frozen flame to determine the Time Devourer's path of evolution in that instance. It seems quite the stretch to claim that Arbiter status has special powers associated or that Schala herself was ever an "arbiter" of anything.
I am championing this theory, as it would be paramount in determining Lavos' existence as a cybernetic matrix and its purpose in general, and am in the process of gathering evidentiary support for it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 01:25:08 am by BROJ »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2008, 04:09:26 pm »
Very good points, BROJ. It was terribly careless of me to confuse energy and plasma. However, to my knowledge, plasma inherently can't be biological (unless we are referring to plasma as in blood plasma or cytoplasma). The ionized/unbound electrons of it would prevent it from forming complex molecules required for biological life as we understand it, wouldn't it?

Curiously, Plasma is a wonderful conductor and the Dragon God was created to conduct and control the planet's energy.

Still, Lavos and the Dragon God, from what we know of them, appear to be fundamentally different states of matter (Lavos being biological as we know it and rather solid looking, appearing only as he appears/ the dragon god being living plasma that seems to preclude biology as we know it and is able to appear at will in a disguise)

I do agree that Belthasar was off his rocker, and your curious turn about (life making death, time being timeless, reason being unreasonable) is very interesting. However, for Melchior and Gaspar, the tables could be turned as well.

Ayla tells us that one must fight to live (old man no fight, dead inside). Melchior is promoting life, then, by providing tools that allow individuals to fight (and it is in the construction of the Mammon Machine that he created something with the intent of reducing conflict but it turned out so poorly).

Gaspar was sent to the end of time, but that is also were a different sort of time flows (Time Error) and from where he is able to more objectively view time. While he was removed from normal time, he was put somewhere where he was better able to understand it.

Even Belthasar was sent to an era where technology and computers reign supreme. And what are computers if not logical (logic itself being often synonymous with reason)?

However, to note; the frozen flame can corrupt those who touch it. At some point in the construction and running of Chronopolis, it is likely that people had to touch the frozen flame. Such individuals might have been corrupted. Belthasar may have been one such individual.

As for the nature of magic, after reading the article I must still disagree with CT magic being Lavos in nature; Magic in Chrono Trigger is not primarily manipulating Lavos' energy. The entire point of Zeal creating the Mammon machine was so that the civilization would not have to rely on the energy of the planet. The sun stone, for example, was once a power source (and the elemental weapons of the pyramid palace thingy were supposed to represent the planet's power as well, if I recall correctly).

Quote from:  Young Man in Zeal, re-translation
   
The weapons and armors brought forth from the   
planet's powers of sky, dark, fire, and water were
since sealed in the northern shrine on the Queen's   
orders.   
What you can see on the northern continent is   
its entrance, but nobody can approach it any more.

Quote from:  Young Man in Zeal, re-translation
   
I've heard that if you were to combine   
Rainbow-Colored Shell said to have existed in   
the primeval era with the Sun Stone, you could   
make magnificent weapons and items.     
But now, for one thing, the only one with such skill   
is the Philosopher of Life... 
Besides, there's also Queen Zeal's order to   
abandon the planet's power...

Quote from: Young Man in Zeal, Re-translation
   
What you can see on the small southern   
continent is the former Sun Temple.   
We had enshrined the Sun Stone that stored up   
the planet's power there, but......   
     
Ever since the new energy came to be   
used, it's been completely shut off.   
Just like the northern shrine.   
They say we don't need such a thing as the   
energy of the old planet any more.
   
It seems rather clear that Zeal used to use the Planet's energy. However, this also disspells my hypothesis that CT magic might have been fundamental elements of the universe, rather than the planet.

Still, the article does provide one good point. With further development, Earth Magic in CT might have developed into a similar form as the Earth Magic of CC. However, the fact that robots have innate elemental attributes seems to indicate that innate colors are, well, not really innate (and indeed, it is rather strange that monsters use elements so often; one would wonder how they can even understand how to use them).

A few other minor points regarding that article: while Chrono and Co's magic is similar, it is noted by Zealeans as being different from their own. Also, Mystics are capable of using magic (zealeans weren't the only ones to have this ability), and Magic predates the use of the Mammon machine (and thus, the conscious direct use of Lavos' power) The loss of Zealean magic after the fall of Zeal may merely be a result of the source of what was then their power being "destroyed;" they didn't know how to use natural magic anymore and with the loss of Zeal, even Lavos' power was denied them. Note, the article claims that Sprigg is a Demi-Human; her status as a Mystic was confirmed by concept art. Additionally, Spekkio gave Frog water powers because he was a frog, not because of some innate ability.

Quote from: SPEKKIO, NA translation
What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him «Water!»

Quote from: SPEKKIO, Re-translation
This's another weird one you've brought.   
As you might guess since this guy's frog, he's   
got "Water" power.

Side note #1: Yes, chloroplasts, to my knowledge, are also thought to have originated through endosymbioticism (I think I might have just made that particular form of the word up).

Side note #2: A good place to start watching Dr. Who is with the "new" series. The franchise was started back in the day, but it took a decade or so hiatus and restarted in 2005. Thus, that link will take you to the "complete first season." (I'd highly recommend renting it before buying, or seeing if it is on youtube or the BBC website; that is a good bit of change to punk down until you know it is worth it). The learning curve isn't very steep. Episodes #1 and #2 (Rose and The End of the World, respectively) are good, but not great (certainly not a waste of time). However, I am fairly convinced that anyone who watched to episode #3 (Unquiet Dead) will quickly be hooked.

Though, it is British so some phrasing might throw you (I still have no idea why anyone would eat beans and toast, or how such could be called lovely).

Side note #3: For the Lavos mimicking bosses, if the images weren't displayed on the screen, would many people have realized that these were supposed to be the bosses they had fought before?

Side note #4: Cell was an android, but if I am recalling correctly, it was also a biological creature (as opposed to the other androids, which were clearly mechanical). It is indeed a good example of machine and flesh being combined in one being. The only real difference I am attempting to state is that while Cell had a pre-defined goal and was created by an outside entity, Lavos created itself and does not have a predefined goal.

Side note #5: Yes, I'd agree that human evolution was "accelerated" (see the evolution thread for specifics), but this was caused by the Frozen Flame and may not have been... deliberate.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2008, 02:45:15 pm »
 :D Interesting note: Doing a little research and I found out that the term plasma referred to in the quote may refer to the word: plasmare
v. mould, mold, shape, model, work--so to amend the quote:

Quote from: Belthasar
The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular molded life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
[...]

Where molding refers to an artificial aspect.

Touching on a topic I unintentionally skipped:

Quote from: Thought
What we see as the Dragon God is just a "pseudo-guise," presumably that disguise wouldn't effect the Time Devourer's form.
The Dragon God's pseudo-guise is applied to projections in the real world(s), not the Time Devourer in the DBT, the base of operations, so to speak.

I do agree that Belthasar was off his rocker, and your curious turn about (life making death, time being timeless, reason being unreasonable) is very interesting. However, for Melchior and Gaspar, the tables could be turned as well.

Ayla tells us that one must fight to live (old man no fight, dead inside). Melchior is promoting life, then, by providing tools that allow individuals to fight (and it is in the construction of the Mammon Machine that he created something with the intent of reducing conflict but it turned out so poorly).

Gaspar was sent to the end of time, but that is also were a different sort of time flows (Time Error) and from where he is able to more objectively view time. While he was removed from normal time, he was put somewhere where he was better able to understand it.

Even Belthasar was sent to an era where technology and computers reign supreme. And what are computers if not logical (logic itself being often synonymous with reason)?

However, to note; the frozen flame can corrupt those who touch it. At some point in the construction and running of Chronopolis, it is likely that people had to touch the frozen flame. Such individuals might have been corrupted. Belthasar may have been one such individual.
Perhaps one could condense this into:
In an effort to restore their(Gurus') purpose:
Life turned to Death to preserve Life;
Reason turned to Unreason(i.e. computers can process, but not reason) to preserve Reason; and
Time(4-D) turned to Timelessness(or 5-D time) to preserve Time.

As for the nature of magic, after reading the article I must still disagree with CT magic being Lavos in nature; Magic in Chrono Trigger is not primarily manipulating Lavos' energy. The entire point of Zeal creating the Mammon machine was so that the civilization would not have to rely on the energy of the planet. The sun stone, for example, was once a power source (and the elemental weapons of the pyramid palace thingy were supposed to represent the planet's power as well, if I recall correctly).

[...]
   
It seems rather clear that Zeal used to use the Planet's energy. However, this also disspells my hypothesis that CT magic might have been fundamental elements of the universe, rather than the planet.
Perhaps Lavos' magic is shadow--and that the planet's natural elements, pre-Lavos, are Sky/Heaven(Air), Water, Fire, and possibly Earth--as per the ancient Greek quaternary system of Elements. So that Lavos' Magic is the shadow(composed of Shadow, Fire, Water, Sky/Heaven) factor or, as I am hypothesizing, artificial magic--Dark Force--Zealian Magic.

Note, the article claims that Sprigg is a Demi-Human; her status as a Mystic was confirmed by concept art. Additionally,
I'm going to need in-game proof to take a side in this matter.

Spekkio gave Frog water powers because he was a frog, not because of some innate ability.

Quote from: SPEKKIO, NA translation
What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him «Water!»

Quote from: SPEKKIO, Re-translation
This's another weird one you've brought.   
As you might guess since this guy's frog, he's   
got "Water" power.
Can we really take that quote seriously? I mean, the line may have been a Japanese pun/joke. :wink:

P.S. Thanks for the info on Doctor Who.  :) May I make a recommendation in return, specifically, Death Note? This anime is different than the standard mold and I think you'll like it. Like Doctor Who, however, it takes a few(3-4) episodes to get "hooked", but all-in-all it's a good anime, albeit some of the humor may be quirky. I'd recommend the Viz(as they actually did a good job this time...) version; you can buy the DVD sets -or- follow this link. Be sure to check this page from time to time as the dub is ongoing.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:44:26 am by BROJ »

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2008, 12:28:29 pm »
*bump* Further discussion?

crazyginder22

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2008, 08:04:16 pm »
Alright just stopping in to say something, I don't want to interrupt the great debate you two are having, but I just wanted to say that these posts have definitely expanded my view on this subject far beyond what I previously had thought.  It is my deepest desire to make great posts like both of you, but sadly enough all my ideas are based purely on speculation.  I don't post often, but I read a lot and I hope you guys can keep this going. 

On a side note, I have watched Dr. Who and read all of the Death Note issues, both very good.  Kira rocks and when I found out about BAD WOLF I was pleasantly amused.  Well I hope you two continue on this topic.  I will be watching in excitement.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2008, 04:59:51 pm »
The Dragon God's pseudo-guise is applied to projections in the real world(s), not the Time Devourer in the DBT, the base of operations, so to speak.

Quite true, but we don't know what the Dragon God's actual form is. The appearance as a Dragon is only a disguise, not a reflection of reality. Therefore, we don't know what its form is so any conclusions based on that form are dubious. It is a stretch to say that the TD has a tail, then, because the Dragon God had a tail.

To note, we don't really know if Lavos had a tail; we never did see it rear.

Perhaps Lavos' magic is shadow--and that the planet's natural elements, pre-Lavos, are Sky/Heaven(Air), Water, Fire, and possibly Earth--as per the ancient Greek quaternary system of Elements. So that Lavos' Magic is the shadow(composed of Shadow, Fire, Water, Sky/Heaven) factor or, as I am hypothesizing, artificial magic--Dark Force--Zealian Magic.

Meh. Shadow Magic corresponds rather strongly to "Black" elemental magic. Not sure how that translates into artificial. Also, why would it be the Greek System? Might not the Japanese system of elements make more sense?

The element of "void" (alternately "Heaven") is an interesting one as it seems like it could reflect both Magus's Magic and Crono's (though "Air" is another Japanese element that could fit Crono, especially in that Crono was free to change the future and air represents freedom).

I wonder if we should add Yin and Yang into such a discussion. The entire series seems to have a heavy dualistic nature. Lavos and the Entity, Heaven and Dark magic, all the elements, FATE and the Dragon God, two dimensions, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame, Kid and Harle, the Time Devourer and Schala, Love and Hate, etc.

I'm going to need in-game proof to take a side in this matter.

In game, not gonna happen. But if I recall correctly, this was in the Missing Piece artwork. To be fair, Sprigg wasn't identified as a Demi-Human in the game either.

Can we really take that quote seriously? I mean, the line may have been a Japanese pun/joke. :wink:

It is debatable, true enough, but I don't generally understand Japanese humor enough to even guess.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2008, 08:07:16 pm »
To note, we don't really know if Lavos had a tail; we never did see it rear.
Fair enough.  :)

Meh. Shadow Magic corresponds rather strongly to "Black" elemental magic. Not sure how that translates into artificial. Also, why would it be the Greek System? Might not the Japanese system of elements make more sense?

The element of "void" (alternately "Heaven") is an interesting one as it seems like it could reflect both Magus's Magic and Crono's (though "Air" is another Japanese element that could fit Crono, especially in that Crono was free to change the future and air represents freedom).

I wonder if we should add Yin and Yang into such a discussion. The entire series seems to have a heavy dualistic nature. Lavos and the Entity, Heaven and Dark magic, all the elements, FATE and the Dragon God, two dimensions, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame, Kid and Harle, the Time Devourer and Schala, Love and Hate, etc.
I've actually been 'tearing' apart my hypothesis lately in an attempt to create a more logical(if I could use such a word in this instance), systematic, and balanced, structure of magic--and here's what I have so far...

Quote from: Magic Theory
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire

Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara

Field: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire

vs

Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara

Anti-Flux/Pull--Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flow and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter

Anti-Field: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier

Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)

Anti-Alteration: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect

vs

Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara

Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste

In game, not gonna happen. But if I recall correctly, this was in the Missing Piece artwork. To be fair, Sprigg wasn't identified as a Demi-Human in the game either.

Suppose it's up to the viewer's taste's then I guess; that is until we know more about Sprigg's past.

It is debatable, true enough, but I don't generally understand Japanese humor enough to even guess.
Neither do I; just throwing it out there.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 09:36:12 pm by BROJ »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 01:12:41 pm »
Quote from: Magic Theory
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire

Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara

Field: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire

vs

Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara

Anti-Flux/Pull--Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flow and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter

Anti-Field: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier

Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)

Anti-Alteration: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect

vs

Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara

Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste

To note, Magus' ability to use "Heaven," "Fire," and "Water" spells may just reflect his abilities as a magic user, not necessarily Shadow/Dark Magic itself. It is slightly curious that he can use Ice 2 but not Water 2.

I am curious, do Double and Tripple Tech's have elemental associations? Dark Eternal seems like it would still be a Shadow/Dark spell, but Omega Flares seems like it is Fire Damage (with the combination of two doses of Shadow Magic, it seems like it should be more chaotic, under your model). Then there is Fire Zone likewise includes "Chasos" but still comes out Fire. Life Line seems Water/Heaven, but still has Chaos. Twister... I'm not sure.

In Crono Cross, to note, "Delta Force" is white elemental, while in Crono Trigger it has Dark/Shadow effects.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 06:31:25 pm »
Few Revisions:
Quote from: Magic Theory
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire

Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara

Seal: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire

vs

Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Magic Barrier

Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flux and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter

Barrier: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier

Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)

Protection: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect

vs

Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara

Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste

Further explanation derived from a discussion with ZeaLity:

Heaven(Cosmos) governs the existence of matter, in other words substance, while Shadow(Chaos) governs 'raw' energy. The balance between these is critical as it governs the Matter/Antimatter<-->Energy(Creation/Annihilation) relationship between the two. Taking that into consideration the Fire and Water Relationship is sort of a partition on the aforementioned relationship between Cosmos and Chaos; the balance between these two govern the structure and behavior of matter/antimatter and energy.


To note, Magus' ability to use "Heaven," "Fire," and "Water" spells may just reflect his abilities as a magic user, not necessarily Shadow/Dark Magic itself. It is slightly curious that he can use Ice 2 but not Water 2.
Meh, too coincidental.  :? Magus's use of ice oriented water and neglect of aqueous water may only be a personal preference due to Ice's more destructive nature; I doubt he is, at any rate, 'unable' to use aqueous water magic.

I am curious, do Double and Tripple Tech's have elemental associations?
The combos have lost their individual elemental characteristics and become 'undefined'--Chaotic.

Twister... I'm not sure.
Shadow

In Crono Cross, to note, "Delta Force" is white elemental, while in Crono Trigger it has Dark/Shadow effects.
Ah, but magic in Chrono Trigger involves manipulating the laws/forces of the Chronoverse, while magic in Chrono Cross involves 'drawing' upon forces of nature--sort of a passive aggressive form of magic as opposed to CT's active manipulation of forces.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:54:23 am by BROJ »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 07:09:52 pm »
Just a few brief bits of info that I thought might be interesting, though they are a bit of an aside (though the discussion seems to be turning more to magic than to Lavos). I found reference to 7 elements (which doesn't really relate to Chrono Trigger, but it does to Chrono Cross):

Quote from: Wikipedia
In the philosophy of the Seven Chakras there are correspondences to the five elements as shared by both Hinduism and Buddhism as well as two other elements:

Sahasrara (Crown): Thought/Space
Ajña (Third Eye): Light/Dark
Vishuddhi (Throat): Ether/Sound
Anahata (Heart): Air
Manipura (Navel): Fire
Svadhisthana (Sacral): Water
Muladhara (Root): Earth
From Wikipedia

Also, Chinese elements remind me of those books in Zeal (water summons wind, wind makes first dance, or whatever) that granted access to the secret studies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Generating

Quote from: Wikipedia
The common memory jogs to help remember which order the phases are in are:
Wood feeds Fire;
Fire creates Earth;
Earth bears Metal;
Metal carries Water;
Water nourishes Wood.

Still... CT elements defy being understood in a classical manner.

Eternal Myst

  • Level ** (100)
  • *
  • Posts: 100
  • Confirmed working on PAL.
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2008, 06:46:45 pm »
I don't like the "living spaceship" theory too much. Lavos is clearly a organism that can reproduce (Lavos Spawns on Death Peak).
I never looked at Lavos as "living", but rather an artificial intelligence(a weapon/research vehicle ala Deus-Xenogears) so it's not much of a stretch to think that 'his' shell could be a space/time vehicle capable of sterilizing an entire planet(seriously do you think an organism can shoot massive amounts of pure energy from 'his' back? :wink:). Take a look at Lavos' original design and cell first form from DBZ(one of Toriyama's other works):

it's zoomed out and has more of a mechanical feel than the later organic adaptation. And notice how he looks like cell's first form ; he could be 'devouring' the entity/entity's energy just like cell did with the other androids in an attempt to evolve.(a possible crossover, hmm..?)

Not to mention, just like Lavos, Cell used 'other' organisms to further his evolution as well. (the similarities are endless...)


This may be off topic,but have you ever realized that the Chrono Trigger characters fit perfectly in the Dragon Ball Z Universe.
:P
It's almost to perfect if you ask me.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2008, 10:18:45 am »
This may be off topic,but have you ever realized that the Chrono Trigger characters fit perfectly in the Dragon Ball Z Universe.
:P
It's almost to perfect if you ask me.

The art certainly fits in, but that is because the character designer worked on both. But the problem with drawing paralells between the two is that similarity of form does not necessitate similarity of substance. That is, they look the same but are quite different beyond mere appearances.

For example, the Dragon Ball series was heavily influenced by Journey to the West. Tony Stark may be Iron Man, but Goku is Monkey King. Now I'm not an expert of Journey to the West or Japanese culture in general, but I am not seeing any influence of the novel in the game.

VincentGAU8

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 218
  • Toma The Explorer!! TOMA!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2008, 11:08:29 pm »
DBZ characters are far too Over-powered compared to their CT 'cousins'... i mean, almost each of them can destroy a planet!! In CT, even Lavos did only superficial damage to the planet when it surfaced in 1999AD..

RedStar

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm the baddest mother to ever crash into earth
    • View Profile
Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2008, 09:06:43 pm »
Did anyone here ever watch Star Trek: The Next Generation?  There was an episode where this sentient alien thing, named Gomtuu, was wandering around space, the last of its kind, and a guest aboard the Enterprise developed a telepathic bond with it.  Check this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Man_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) to see a picture of what it looks like.  It looks REMARKABLY LIKE LAVOS.  Or should I say Lavos looks remarkably like it, since the episode was made years before Chrono Trigger was.

In the episode, the guy with the bond with Gomtuu was transported inside it.  There he could breath and watch the stars and talk with Gomtuu and whatnot.  This got me thinking; what if the outside was still the body but the inside was like the brain?  Unlike our anatomy, the brain could defend itself.  In the Stargate series the aliens are really just little parasitic creatures that crawl inside us and control us.  This would be a step up from that.  So, the shell is part of the body, the inside is part of the brain, where the real genetic development would take place.  The spawn all look the same from the outside but it's the inside that really changes.

I don't think that it IS a cybernetic organism but it BECAME one.  His first form in the final battle is the Dragon Tank, a mechanical thing.  Then it's the Guardian and 2 Bits, which seems to be the template for his final form.  The apex of human evolution (the future) is a pretty good place to look for a superior being to model yourself after/assimilate into your DNA.  Fusing machines with organic DNA was probably the most efficient model it could use.  That's why I think the inside of Lavos looks the way it does.