Author Topic: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?  (Read 10219 times)

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2008, 01:14:10 am »
I see your point, but would such a thing be able to reproduce on it's own?
Technically, yes. Hold on I'm going to pull some info from another thread...

This post is intended to add to my previous hypothesis:

Cell's appearance varies depending on which form he is in. He evolved from a cocoon-like form and his first form is insect-like in appearance.
Hmm... The shell of Lavos does look like a cocoon and considering it(Lavos) was growing the 'Ultimate being' inside, it is rather indicative of the shell being a sort of cocoon.

Abilities

Cell has a large range of different varying powers, that previous Z warriors have shown, this is due to the fact that he is essentially a combination of many different cells of many different beings that have travelled to been on Earth.
Kinda like Lavos absorbed DNA, huh?..

Cell's final form, while possessing a tail, does not demonstrate the ability to absorb other beings. Instead, he uses his tail to create smaller versions of himself called Cell Juniors.
In Lavos' case--Lavoids

Lavos is also the final boss in Chrono Cross, except in the form of the Devourer of Time, the result of the defeated Lavos assimilating Schala in the darkness beyond time.
After absorbing a sufficient amount of beings, Cell then found #17 and #18 and nearly absorbed #17, if not for #16 who was able to fight Cell one on one.[6] He eventually manages to absorb #17 and changes into his second form. This second form would have absorbed #18 as well if Tenshinhan did not intervene. Tenshinhan is able to stall him long enough for #18 and #16 to escape. Cell gives chase to the two artificial humans and tries to flush them out of an island they were hiding in until Vegeta arrives to challenge Cell.[8] Vegeta easily defeats Cell by utilizing his new Super Saiyan 2nd Grade abilities. However, Vegeta, wanting to battle a more challenging opponent, assisted Cell in absorbing #18.[9] In this new form Cell easily defeats Vegeta and Trunks (who comes to assist Vegeta).
Perfection through absorption is my stance, not 'true' Evolution. (Like the Romans absorbed technology from other cultures to create a 'perfect society'.)




Anacalius

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2008, 02:35:07 am »
Most interesting, thank you much.

Where do you think such a thing would come from? What could it's ultimate purpose be?

I'm definitely going to have to put some thought into this one. :shock:

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 02:48:13 am »
Where do you think such a thing would come from?
Good question... Weapon from another planet that went 'whack'..?
 
What could it's ultimate purpose be?
Other than achieving it's perfect form via aborbing DNA, the planet's energy, and the Arbiters(Serge and theoretically Schala) which may be intended components to Lavos like Androids were to Cell.(notably a *very* similar situation in Xenogears where Elyham, the Omnigears, and the wells were intended components for Deus); maybe an interplanetary siege weapon?..
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 02:50:26 am by BROJ »

Anacalius

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2008, 03:03:26 am »
Where do you think such a thing would come from?
Good question... Weapon from another planet that went 'whack'..?

Perhaps, or maybe it didn't really go "Whack" at all, I guess you'd have to know what the original intention was. If it is a weapon, it must be made by an amazing race of....whatever. I mean, a weapon that takes over 65,000,000 years to carry out it's full purpose?  :shock: I suppose you're theory of a weapon that went "Whack" is probably more sensible, though. Maybe it's original function was just to absorb DNA for use at the creators' planet or whatever? They'd definitely have to be extremely advanced to make such a thing.
Maybe a weapon/tool from some kind of immortal race?  :shock:
Maybe I'm thinking too much.  :?

What could it's ultimate purpose be?
Other than achieving it's perfect form via aborbing DNA, the planet's energy, and the Arbiters(Serge and theoretically Schala) which may be intended components to Lavos like Androids were to Cell.(notably a *very* similar situation in Xenogears where Elyham, the Omnigears, and the wells were intended components for Deus); maybe an interplanetary siege weapon?..

Very good points, as well. Wasn't Xenogears made by a lot of the same people as Trigger? Maybe they kinda built on that idea more for Xenogears?

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2008, 03:19:55 am »
I mean, a weapon that takes over 65,000,000 years to carry out it's full purpose?  :shock: I suppose you're theory of a weapon that went "Whack" is probably more sensible, though.
Technically, Lavos 'left' 4-D time on impact and, theoretically, created a discontiguous space-time, otherwise known as a "Pocket Dimension" to observe and collect info from all time periods.

Very good points, as well. Wasn't Xenogears made by a lot of the same people as Trigger? Maybe they kinda built on that idea more for Xenogears?
Yes it was and the similarities between the two games go *much* further. Faustwolf and I discussed this in this thread.

Anacalius

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2008, 03:23:01 am »

Technically, Lavos 'left' 4-D time on impact and, theoretically, created a discontiguous space-time, otherwise known as a "Pocket Dimension" to observe and collect info from all time periods.

Oh yeah, duh. x.x

between the two games go *much* further. Faustwolf and I discussed this in this thread.

I actually knew it, and yeah, the similarities go on and on and on with that game. That's why I'm so surprised everytime I hear someone in the compendium saying they've never played Xenogears.  :shock:

Thanks for that thread, link, though. =P

MagilsugaM

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 09:26:57 am »
So in that case 18 is schala because they free her...

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 11:42:49 am »
I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal.  Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 12:01:01 pm »
I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal.  Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.
You would still be right, in a sense; Lavos, in my theory, is 'living' in a sort of bio-mechanical configuration. Which makes the most out of the biological side by an *extreme* form of mitosis(likely Lavos is an asexual being, anyways), the ability to regenerate, and the ability to 'evolve'. It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 12:11:14 pm by BROJ »

Kebrel

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2008, 12:08:02 pm »
hmm...vary similar to the Guyver then?

A weapon thats indistinguishable from an alien life form, Its power is based off that of the creatures it comes in contact with.


EDIT: AHH okay then.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 12:22:16 pm by Kebrel »

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2008, 12:12:19 pm »
EDIT: added to previous post.

Anacalius

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2008, 02:43:54 pm »
So in that case 18 is schala because they free her...

Huh?!  :?

I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal.  Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.
You would still be right, in a sense; Lavos, in my theory, is 'living' in a sort of bio-mechanical configuration. Which makes the most out of the biological side by an *extreme* form of mitosis(likely Lavos is an asexual being, anyways), the ability to regenerate, and the ability to 'evolve'. It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.

This is the most thought I've put into Lavos in years.  :)

MagilsugaM

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2008, 07:53:04 pm »
Number 18 was released before cell death after that cell try to destroy the world...
So I asume that schala was n18...

BROJ

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2008, 03:42:33 pm »
Going of on a little of a tangent--If my theory checks out; Is Lavos ~ Dragon God?
I conjectured this from reading the following passages:

The Dragonians are an evolved form of Reptites. They came to exist in the Reptite Dimension as the Reptites evolved over millions of years; they grew in close harmony with nature, fashioning their dwellings out of natural material that did not disrupt the ecosystem. They also explored the science of controlling nature, culminating in the construction of a mighty floating city called Dinopolis. At the head of the superstructure sat the Dragon God, a cybernetic machine being capable of controlling and shaping nature to its will.
Again, Lavos guided evolution to his will--so pretty similar.

The Dragon God was a machine comprised of organic living tissue the Dragonians had built in their own dimension. It's purpose was to regulate and maintain balance between the six elements of nature.
Didn't Lavos allow for manipulation of his own set of elements.

And considering that the Dragon God readily 'merged' with Lavos at the DBT according to*:

It should be noted that the Dragon God additionally serves as another component of the Time Devourer. At some unspecified date the Dragon was engulfed by Lavos in the Darkness of Time, just as Schala had been. The details of this are unknown but many have surmised this occurred during FATE’s sealing of the Dragon since the Frozen Flame (a known link to Lavos) was used in this process. After this fusion had happened the six individual dragon gods, as well as the complete merged version, were only able to appear in the timelines as illusionary projections emanating from the Darkness of Time but ultimately created by the Time Devourer.

[...]

The next one is kind of long so read the original article, here. (it supports his theory)

*;one could say that the being's essences were 'mutually compatible'.

And if they were 'mutually compatible' they probably took the best of both entities and made in themselves a new entity--the Time Devourer while still possessing 'mutually exclusive' consciousnesses as did Schala. Case in point: the Dragon God's system of 'Magic' was obviously more advanced than the one Lavos possessed, one could gather Lavos adopted the system due to the fact that the Time Devourer used 'Green' elemental spells to combat Serge and co. in the DBT. And according to the latter part of the link to the article I provided:
Incidentally, because of their merger the Time Devourer can be seen to have a tail. As neither Lavos or Schala had a tail, many believe this was formed as a result of the consumption of the Dragon God. Note that even though the Dragon God was a projection, it still retained its own will and original personality. It acted on its own desires, not those of Lavos.

So in essence: Lavos+Schala(Arbiter 1--allowed consumption of Dragon God 'through' the Frozen Flame)=LavosI+Dragon God=Time Devourer+Serge(Arbiter 2--possibly allowing consumption of FATE--another cybernetic being/supercomputer which came in contact with the Frozen Flame.)=Time DevourerI+FATE?= ??? (Ends up being Deus, leaves the planet and 'dropped off' on another via the Eldridge... and starts Xenogears. (That'd be a pretty sweet scenario, although probably not for the planet.)

So, in other words the Arbiter's job is to 'decide' which characteristics stay and which go as well as serving as the 'glue' for the two entities. Serge, in addition, also had the capability, with the Chrono Cross, to divide the entities(Lavos, Schala, and the Dragon God.)--to devolve the Time Devourer back into Lavos.

This is just theory of course.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 05:44:15 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: Lavos' shell is a spaceship?
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2008, 03:16:48 pm »
I am curious as to if the distinction between natural and artificial, between biological and mechanical, might be a false dichotomy.

To propose an analogy; humans really aren't the far from genetic engineering. Given a hundred or two year, it is imaginable (though I'd argue unlikely) that the entire "human genome" will be the result of intentional changes on our part. Such might be termed artificial, but it is also the result of a very natural process (evolution and human enquiry). The Lavos we know and love may be artificial, but that doesn't mean he isn't natural as well, or that he had to have been constructed by an outside entity (... ooo, Lavos might have been The Entity from another planet gone bad!). Lavos might have made himself.

As for biological and mechanical, likewise humans aren't really that far away from fully integrated cybernetics. Our cells already contain some very foreign materials (mitochondria) that might not be "natural" (see Endosymbiotic theory). It isn't impossible to imagine that humans might develop cybernetic nanites that can imbed themselves into our cells to perform various functions, possibly even to perform functions otherwise impossible through our understanding of DNA and biology (imagine, for example, "lungs" that can extract oxygen from both a gas and liquid, or lungs that can extract carbon as well, removing or reducing the need for it to be present in dietary intakes). Or indeed, even something much more low key, like computer implants in our brain connecting memory to external databases (allowing us to "download" or "upload" memories). Like with the above, machines might be non-biological, but they can be integrated (indeed, it is possible for machines to reproduce and "evolve" as well, so it is possible that given a simple starting point one might develop machine based life, which would still be "biological;" bios being Greek for life, if I recall correctly).

All that is merely to state that Lavos might be both the created and the creator, the Bad Wolf, to compare to a Doctor Who "character." I don't see a reason to assume that it is a "weapon gone whack" to the exclusion of it being a "cosmic animal."


see? Cosmic animal ;)

Anywho, that is primarily a conceptualization matter.

A few points that I feel should be made clear, however, judging from other people's posts are as follows:

It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.

Emulation of others is curiously a traditionally non-mechanical trait; see Doppelganger. Machines thus far have been very poor at mimicking natural life, in the real world, but excel wonderfully when they are allowed to be machines.

Additionally, there is a long tradition of life being able to "harness" other life. At a basic material level, all animals do this. A little more rarified are leeches and the mythological vampires. Succubuses (Succcubie? Sucoobie? Doo?) are just one example of non-mechanical creatures (mythological though they are) that feed off energy (or semen, depending on how you want to interpret things). Enter into video games and Metroids loom large (though those are supposedly genetically engineered). Enter into anime and, well, Goku's Spirit Bomb (or whatever the real, not dubbed, name of that attack was) is an obvious example.

This is just to say that what you identify as "mechanical" might not be actually evidence of mechanisms.

Again, Lavos guided evolution to his will--so pretty similar.

That is debatable, as it is only clearly indicated as so in the original North American release; Lavos consciously guiding evolution is not present in the original language, so that is probably an artifact of translation.

The Dragon God was a machine comprised of organic living tissue the Dragonians had built in their own dimension. It's purpose was to regulate and maintain balance between the six elements of nature.
Didn't Lavos allow for manipulation of his own set of elements.

Two things here:

One, no, the Dragon god was not comprised of organic living tissue, it was living energy. See the game script:

Quote from: Belthasar
   The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.
   In order to control the natural
   energy itself, FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.
   Their dragon-like appearances
   are just pseudo-guises...
   ...Temporary forms they take
   so that they can appear in
   this dimension.

I bolded and italicized the two relevant sections. The Dragon God is living energy, and that energy is still biological in nature (how, I have no idea). What we see as the Dragon God is just a "pseudo-guise," presumably that disguise wouldn't effect the Time Devourer's form.

Second, we aren't told if Lavos allowed for the manipulation of his own "elements." We know that "Lightning," Water, Fire, and Shadow were the elements on the universe and that humans "evolved" to harness those using the planet's energy, but the distinction is made between those elements (and their source) and the magic of post-Mammon Machine Zeal. Zeal still used magic, but I don't recall there being any elemental distinction.

As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).

So in essence: Lavos+Schala(Arbiter 1...

I am still rather doubtful that "Arbiter" status can apply in most cases, including this one. Serge was an Arbiter in Chronopolis, as established by those computer systems (not Lavos or the Frozen Flame), and quite separately he was established as an "Arbiter" by the frozen flame to determine the Time Devourer's path of evolution in that instance. It seems quite the stretch to claim that Arbiter status has special powers associated or that Schala herself was ever an "arbiter" of anything.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 03:40:34 pm by Thought »