Author Topic: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?  (Read 7073 times)

placidchap

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Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« on: January 16, 2008, 11:12:08 am »
Hi,

I had a thought yesterday that prompted me from being a lurker, to a registrant...

edit

I am withdrawing my theory for further chin-tapping thought.  Will update later if I don't unravel it in the mean time...

edit
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 12:46:03 pm by placidchap »

x_XTacTX_x

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 11:32:42 pm »
Make up your mind, mate. I'd like to hear this...

MagilsugaM

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 12:15:52 am »
Make up your mind, mate. I'd like to hear this...
That mate sounds aussie...

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 05:41:41 pm »

[/quote]
That mate sounds aussie...
[/quote]

ARSE ARSE CRIKEY BUGGER

placidchap

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 01:58:36 pm »
Alright...Here are some thoughts that I have come up with.  These do not relate to the original intent of the topic but are some what related to the original title..so here it is.  let me know if there is anything I am overlooking that would throw this out the window.  Another note...I call Lavos' Pocket Dimension a "Zero Dimension", as a point is supposedly 0-D and it sounds cooler.  Hopefully it is somewhat coherent...

Lavos Timeline

Instances where Lavos is “recorded” in time
   1st  65m BC
   2nd 12000 BC
   3rd 600AD
                4th 1999 AD
Lavos is attached to Earth’s time stream via a trans-dimensional parasitic link not unlike an umbilical cord.  It is in its own zero dimension (0-D), in a space transcendent to time (at least “our” time).  Due to the link, however, it does flows through time at the same rate as that experienced by Earth.  Lavos  can not see all time periods as previously thought, but can see everything as it happens while time flows naturally via the link.
Each instance (listed above) where Lavos is summoned or appears “on” Earth is “recorded” in history as it comes directly into contact with our time stream.  Once it goes back to its 0-D, Lavos no longer is a part of the normal stream.  This will be noticeably important momentarily.
During any of these initial instances, Lavos could be killed off (changing the future from then on) and solve all of the problems of the ruined future.  However, in the Lavos Timeline Lavos goes unchallenged and continues its “mission” to great success.  When it erupts from the depths of the Earth in 1999, it forever leaves its 0-D and becomes a part of the Earth’s time flow, “permanently” becoming a part of the time line.  So from 1999 and onward, it resides within our actual timeline. Now, we move on to the Keystone 1 Timeline.

Keystone 1 timeline

For the ruined future to exist, it must have happened as it did in the Lavos timeline.  Someone or something must have actively altered the past, which is where Trigger picks up.  Whomever or whatever created the circumstances for Trigger to occur, did so after experiencing the events of 1999 with the intention of the un-ruin of the future.
As the events unfold in Trigger, we come across the previously mentioned instances where Lavos came into contact with our Time Stream.  These recorded events take place as they did when they originally happened.  Defeating Lavos in instance 1, 2 or 3 does nothing more than eliminate that particular occurrence from the timeline (with the possibility of some changes afterwards).  When the party encounters Lavos in the first three instances they are witnessing an event that has already happened (not the “actual” Lavos).  Of course they party can eliminate Lavos at each of those instances, changing only that instance (and the some of the future beyond that point)  This is not the “actual” Lavos mind you, who has already come and gone and resides in 1999+.  This situation is possible due to the 0-D and its unusual space-time phenomena.
The only way to prevent the ruined future is to meet up with the Lavos instance that caused that future to exist, instance #4.  Killing off Lavos at this point in time prevents that future from existing, which of course results in that future being side swiped into the DBT….along with the Lavos Spawn.  The strongest of those spawn manage to merge with Schala…enter DD/TD. And Keystone 2.

Some  points to clarify (or try to):
1)   The “actual” Lavos is never seen, only its “footprints” in time.  It is my belief that once perched upon Death Peak, it reproduced asexually; a process that “kills” off the original and the new spawn emerge from the shell/carcass.  They carry the DNA of the original (not necessarily the power…yet) and the ability to continue to absorb new DNA and evolve in perpetuity.
2)   The 0-D no longer exists at any point in time.  Once Lavos comes out of it in 1999 during the Lavos Timeline, Lavos “dissolves” the unneeded domain.  Since it was never a part of our time stream and is not just a so called “pocket” dimension as previously thought it ceases to exist anywhere in time or space.  This also eliminates the need for using Time-Error for this location, as the 0-D doesn’t function in that manner. (Lavos does not travel time either…
3)   This means that during the events of Trigger, there is no pocket dimension/zero dimension and there is no “actual” Lavos.  (only the recorded instances, as well as survived by the Spawn)
4)   I would take the liberty of assuming that the summoning of Lavos from the Black Omen, the thought to be canon way of arriving to Lavos, would have to occur at 1999, as no new instances of Lavos could occur (based on my theory).  This is supported by the fact (???) that after retreating from Lavos after the battle with the Queen…it can only be accessed afterwards via 1999 (Bucket or Epoch).
5)   The Lavos paradox from defeating the shell in 1999 then heading back to 12000 to deal with the Zeal segment is eliminated with this theory.
6)   The Lavos instance that matters towards changing the ruined future is the one instance that directly caused it (1999).  Defeating Lavos during the first 3 instances would not change the ruined future, but maybe preventing the Reptites from dying off, Zeal from being destroyed or Magus’ castle from disappearing.  Unknown exactly what would happen as my belief is that Lavos was eliminated in 1999 and that its 0-D causes some unusual occurrences throughout time.

chrono eric

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 05:52:59 am »
I'm confused as to how this is a novel theory. It's pretty much common sense that when Lavos' pocket dimension is disconnected from the timelines that Lavos can observe the entire timeline from the pocket dimension, but when it connects to the timeline time would have to flow normally inside the pocket dimension (indeed, like an umbilical cord to the normal flow of time).

However, I disagree with you at one key point. If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that the party can not fight the true Lavos before 1999 A.D.? Well, to use the Ocean Palace incident as an example, when someone enters Lavos' pocket dimension, they are effectively time travelling. Just as in the normal timeline, the future of Lavos' pocket dimension can likewise be altered. So, I see no contradiction here because in the normal timeline Crono and co. did not enter Lavos' pocket dimension and the Ocean Palace events proceeded one way, but in the new timeline they did - altering history both in their timeline and the timeline of the pocket dimension.

I agree with you though that Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D., but for a different reason - Time Bastard would preserve Lavos' arrival in 1999 A.D. even if they killed Lavos in the past. So, the only way for them to truly alter the future would be to kill him after he erupts in 1999 A.D., regardless of what the script of Chrono Cross suggests or what the Compendium's contradictory theories support.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 05:54:33 am by chrono eric »

placidchap

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 10:17:57 am »
I suppose the main difference I am trying to convey is this: (besides renaming pocket to zero)

Currently it is believed that this zero dimension exists during the events of Trigger and that Lavos can see everything on the timeline from its little dimension.  It is assumed that this zero dimension always exists in every time line, as if it follows the same principles as the "normal" flow of time, up until Lavos leaves it.

My belief is that this zero dimension exists only in the "original" Lavos timeline, when it first came to Earth.  After it erupts 1999 AD, it ceases to exists, at any point in time (on the Lavos or the Keystone timelines)  While I believe Lavos does reside in its own dimension, I don't think that it connects to all points (and I don't believe that to be common sense as you said, only the best idea so far.)  I think this 0-D has "latched" on to the time stream (with the umbilical cord), which allows for Lavos and the 0-D to flow at a natural rate of time. 
Each time Lavos comes into direct contact with our time stream during the Lavos timeline, those moments are recorded in time, as any normal event would.  Once Lavos leaves the time stream, it goes back to the 0-D but only on the Lavos timeline.  Once the events of Trigger take place, the 0-D does not exist any longer and the only time Lavos "exists" is at those instances I mentioned, as they were recorded in time. 
The point of the game is to prevent the ruined future and with what I have said, this can only be done in 1999.  Defeating Lavos at any instance other than the 1999 one, would do nothing to prevent the ruined future.  1999 is when Lavos leaves the 0-D, destroys the world and starts to reside on our time stream.  Defeating Lavos at 1999 DBT's the ruined future and what is left of the original Lavos (the Spawn).

Maybe my little picture can help.  Hard trying to explain this stuff.

edit: just to clarify, since I don't believe the 0-D to exist anymore, no one actually enters the 0-D.  That blue wavy stuff can could have easily came with Lavos as it left the 0-D.  I don't think it means that they are physically in the 0-D.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:21:10 am by placidchap »

Eske

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2008, 02:54:56 pm »
I think I get it:

Compendium:  PD always exists, before and after Entity intervenes, and its future can be changed.

You: 0-D only exists until 1999. Because it is separate from the timeline, after 1999 (when it is dissolved) it wouldn't be "approachable" from any point in time beforehand.

Which means that the party can't defeat Lavos in 12000BC because the second time around its like he came from nowhere and would return to nowhere.  Blink in, blink out   -  weird. lol

Kinda like it   =)

placidchap

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 09:28:38 am »
Yea, Now that I think of it...this has nothing to do with whether the PD/0D flow of time is perpendicular or parallel...I probably should update my babble to exclude that, as that is not the topic of my theory (anymore).  It started off as such but ended up elsewhere...

Anyways, yes that about sums it up.  Although I will restate what you said, to try and be a little more clear.

Compendium:  PD always exists, in all timelines, up to 1999.  Crono and crew go to the PD and fight Lavos, presumably in 12000BC, as the battle with Queen Zeal segues into the Lavos battle.  Crono and crew win, PD is cut off from our time stream

Me:  0D exists until 1999, in the "Lavos" Timeline only.  Once Lavos originally comes out and dissolves the 0D, it no longer exists at any point in time, past, present or future.  All instances where Crono and crew meet up with Lavos are events where Lavos has the TTI effect.  Could possibly kill the Lavos at that instance, but to prevent the ruined future, which is the whole point of the game, they must travel to 1999 and off the beast there, for obvious reasons.

This could explain why Lavos has its shell intact at the Ocean Palace incident if it is destroyed in 1999. 
This could also possibly explain the Doan paradox...if the party truly does defeat Lavos in 12000BC, then the ruined future would still exist...of course this goes against what is inferred in Cross and the lack of "omg, why does the ruined future still exist after we defeated Lavos" kind of reaction from Lucca et al.  Although that might be explained by a lack of understanding of the situation or overlooked due to the celebratory mood at the time.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 11:46:30 am »
Now I get it.

This could explain why Lavos has its shell intact at the Ocean Palace incident if it is destroyed in 1999. 

So, passing through the Black Omen in 12,000 BC could still be the canon way to reach Lavos. The queen, after her defeat, could send the party towards Lavos in 1999 than just calling Lavos to them. Yes, it makes sense that way.

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 12:39:55 pm »
It also explains why he is shown destroying 1999 AD if you lose to him.

Eske

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 11:32:23 pm »
The thing is though, Time Error:

When Crono and Co. time travel, they make a 5th dimensional change to Time (4D).
Even if eliminating the 0-D space in 1999 eliminates it in the entire timeline (which I understand), the choice to eliminate it in the first place was made in 1999, a point on the 4D axis.
By making a 5th dimensional change, Crono travels back before that choice was made. 

Its easier to say that the reason why Lavos in 1999 can have its shell destroyed and the Lavos in the Ocean Palace incident can have it intact is because   1999 Lavos exited the 0-D space permanently.  You kill the shell,  it never returns to 0-D so all prior forms will keep the shell intact.

Then again, that doesn't violate the PD idea either.  Lavos exits the PD when he erupts anyway - so going to 1999 and destroying the shell wouldn't affect the 12000BC version in the first place.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 01:44:56 am »
When Crono and Co. time travel, they make a 5th dimensional change to Time (4D).
Even if eliminating the 0-D space in 1999 eliminates it in the entire timeline (which I understand), the choice to eliminate it in the first place was made in 1999, a point on the 4D axis.
By making a 5th dimensional change, Crono travels back before that choice was made. 

But didn't the 1999 when it dissolved was the one of the unchanged 'Lavos Timeline'?

That's his point, the time line first passed without the time traveling done by Crono, then the Entity did the first change to set the events in motion that will stop Lavos, ending in it's defeat in 1999. This is now done in the Keystone time line, which is different in that this time, Lavos was defeated.

chrono eric

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 01:56:24 pm »
But isn't this a little bit uneccesarily complicated? I agree that Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D., for example, but I agree for a different reason.

I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.

A comparative hypothetical example to illustrate this point: Crono time travels to 600 A.D from Leene Square. If some time traveller then emerges in 1000 A.D. and kills Crono before he gets a chance to enter the time gate, he would still appear in 600 AD because of TTI.

The point that I want to drive across is that constructing an entirely new 0-D theory to explain why Lavos could only be killed in 1999 A.D. is unnecessary, because a much simpler theory already exists.

But I'm fair and critical of my own hypotheses, so:

Problems with my theory: This doesn't explain why if you defeat Lavos' shell in 1999 A.D. it is gone in previous time periods. Only if Lavos' PD wasn't completely dissolved immediately after he emerges in 1999 AD could this be explained.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 01:59:27 pm by chrono eric »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 04:41:07 pm »
Problems with my theory: This doesn't explain why if you defeat Lavos' shell in 1999 A.D. it is gone in previous time periods. Only if Lavos' PD wasn't completely dissolved immediately after he emerges in 1999 AD could this be explained.

By that you mean when you do the Black Omen?

I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.

Doesn't his theory applies this too? While not mentioning TTI, he is still stating that Lavos appearing there is caused by it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 05:20:19 pm by Acacia Sgt »