Author Topic: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis  (Read 2847 times)

Vykan12

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Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« on: November 11, 2011, 02:02:22 am »
Hi, new member here! So I was bored and I decided to have a detailed look at this guide about Chrono Trigger's game mechanics. In particular, I was interested in the synergistic effect of using double techs. In other words, how worthwhile is it to use a double tech compared to 2 single techs?

Well, as expected, double techs are definitely worth it for the most part, though surprisingly a few are worse off than their single tech counterparts. Let's have a look:

Crono/Marle double techs:

Aura whirl: Slight increase in mag multiplier compared to aura, and heals all party members. Definitely worthwhile.

Ice sword: Chrono’s spincut damage more than doubles, and Marle’s ice damage increases ~50%. Awesome double tech.

Ice sword 2: Chrono’s confuse damage doubles, but Marle’s ice damage is basically the same. Not as special as ice sword.

Crono/Lucca double techs:

Fire whirl: Chrono’s cyclone damage doubles, and Lucca’s flame toss damage increases almost 50%. Amazing technique given the MP cost.

Fire sword/fire sword 2: Same argument as in Marle’s case.

Crono/Ayla double techs:

Drill Kick: Doubles the damage output of cyclone + rollo kick by themselves. Great double tech.

Volt Bite: This attack is completely broken, doing 9x Ayla’s physical hit damage with only 5 MP cost (2 for lightning/3 for cat attack). For reference, a cat attack by itself does 2.2x damage. Here’s another way to put it: Crono’s confuse does 3.6x damage, which is less than half the damage of this double tech, while also carrying triple the MP cost (15).

Falcon Hit: This is even more broken than volt bite! This double tech combines rock throw (3.3x damage) and spincut (2x damage) to make Chrono do 8x damage. More importantly, this double tech hits multiple targets, whereas rock throw and spincut are single-target techniques. To give an idea, falcon hitting 3 enemies at once would result in 4.5 times the damage output of using the techs individually.

Crono/Frog double techs:

X-strike: Chrono’s cyclone damage triples while Frog’s slurp cut damage doubles. Absolutely worthwhile tech.

Swordstream: Identical formula to fire/ice sword.

Spire: Leapslash damage doubles, lightning damage doubles. Quite an awesome multiplier, too bad it doesn’t involve more powerful single techs.

Crono/Robo double techs:

Rocket Roll: This double tech sucks. Chrono’s cyclone isn’t even factored into the damage equation, and Robo’s laser spin damage only increases 50%. The single techs would probably be more effective overall.

Max cyclone: Comparable to volt bite, but carries 2 extra MP cost, has a slightly smaller multiplier, and most importantly has a very limited range. Admittedly it can strike multiple targets, but this is highly situational.

Super volt: This double tech also sucks. While it increases Crono’s lightning 2 multiplier from 5.75 to 13.8, Robo’s shock multiplier is also reduced from 16.5 to 13.8. The net damage output isn’t really that much better than using the techs separately.

Marle/Lucca double techs:

Antipod: To my surprise, this technique isn’t that special. It only increases the fire/ice multiplier by 0.1! The only reason to use it is in the rare cases that it will hit multiple targets.

Antipod 2: While the fire/ice multiplier is now roughly 50% larger compared to using the single techs, antipod 2 also has less range (doesn’t hit every enemy on-screen). Better to use fire 2 and ice 2 separately in most cases.

Antipod 3: Same case as super volt, while Marle’s ice 2 multiplier jumps significantly, Lucca’s flare multiplier gets cut roughly an even amount.

Marle/Ayla double techs:

Twin charm: No idea how it affects the success rate.

Ice toss: Pretty broken, Ayla’s beast toss damage triples, and it can hit multiple enemies.

Cube toss: Even better than ice toss, Ayla’s beast toss damage quadruples, Marle’s ice2 damage increases 50%, hits multiple targets.

Marle/Frog double techs:

Ice water: While this has no effect on damage multipliers, it hits every enemy on-screen. So long as there are more than 2 enemies being fought, this is worthwhile.

Glacier: Awful double tech. While Marle and Frog’s multipliers are 50% higher, they are only targeting 1 enemy, compared to hitting every enemy on-screen with their single-techs. Only worthwhile against a boss.

Double cure: Fully heals all party members for only a combined 10 MP, need I say more?

Marle/Robo double techs:

Aura beam: Identical to aura whirl, great heal-all technique given its minimal MP cost.

Ice tackle: Nothing special, 50% more damage than the single techs used by themselves.

Cure touch: Best heal-all technique in the game. Basically Marle’s cure 2 applied to the whole party at the expense of 3 MP for Robo.

Luca/Ayla double techs:

Flame kick: Ayla’s rollo kick damage is computed differently, instead of involving a damage multiplier, the damage is calculated according to her (level+pwr)*multiplier. I’m not sure if this would increase damage output, but it would have the advantage of ignoring enemy defence. Otherwise, this seems like your standard 50% more damage fare.

Fire whirl: Probably the most broken technique in the game. Hits every enemy on-screen, increases Lucca’s fire 2 damage 50%, and most importantly has an absolutely ridiculous multiplier attached to Ayla’s damage output. It’s 24.7*(lvl+mag), the 24.7 multiplier is even larger than Crono’s luminaire (20.5). If anyone were worthy of magic tabs, it would be Ayla.

Blaze kick: Ironically, this double tech is inferior to fire whirl in every way. Only targets 1 enemy, has a much larger MP cost, and most unbelievably of all, every multiplier involved is lower! Someone messed up balance royally here.

Lucca/Frog double techs:

Red pin: Nothing special, very similar to fire/ice sword in terms of calculation.

Line bomb: Mind bogglingly terrible. Basically take mega bomb, reduce its range to hitting on a line, reduce the damage multiplier involved, and make Frog waste 5 MP in the process (he doesn’t even factor into the equation). It’s funny because the animation is very similar in style to falcon hit, yet they’re completely different in terms of usefulness.

Frog flare: No information provided :(

Lucca/Robo double techs:

Fire punch: Surprisingly mediocre, not even a 50% damage increase.

Fire tackle: Pretty lame too, the extra damage is not worth having Lucca’s fire 2 limited to a single target.

Doublevbomb: Equally as lame, for 29 MP cost it only targets within a certain radius? The multiplier increase is also only about 25%.

Ayla/Frog double techs:

Slurp kiss: I was mistaken, this is the best healing double tech in the game. A combined 2 MP cost, heal-all, and is calculated as Ayla’s MP x 28. Yet another reason to throw all our magic tabs at Ayla. By level 30 Ayla’s healing for 308 hp, and with just 3 magic tabs, that increases to 392. Incredible.

Bubble hit: Never saw this coming… this double tech is better than volt bite! Costs 1 less MP while having a slightly higher multiplier (10>9).

Drop kick: Triple kick and leap slash alone would normally do a combined 6.2x damage. With the double tech, they do 19.5x damage. That’s more than triple the output!

Ayla/Robo double techs:

Spin kick: Basically bubble hit +1 MP, meaning this is also superior to volt bite.

Boogie: Casts stop on all enemies, don’t know the activation rate.

Beast toss: Similar to drop kick, but it does 19.9x damage while costing 3 less MP. I can understand why I saw this used in an LLG on the black omen.

Frog/Robo double techs:

Blade toss: Very similar to max cyclone, for only 5 MP cost Frog’s slurp cut damage triples while Robo’s Rocket punch damage doubles, and this targets multiple enemies on a straight line, but with a seemingly limited range.

Bubble snap: Volt bite just got owned, for 1 extra MP we can do robo’s atk damage times 15! Some of these multipliers are just outrageous.

Cure wave: Effective heal-all technique, though far from the best. At level 30, slurp kiss heals for 319 hp, whereas this heals for 525 hp. Considering this costs 4x as much MP, it’s not a good trade-off.

===============================================================

I’m amazed at the sheer lack of balance between some of these techs. Most have a reasonable synergistic effect of 50% damage increase, but others will churn out 4x damage while additionally targeting multiple enemies (eg/ falcon hit). Others still will actually have a negative synergistic effect, such as line bomb (more mp, less range, less damage). Basically, square seemed to have been pretty careless when devising these damage formulas.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 10:18:32 am by Vykan12 »

xcalibur

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Re: Double Tech Analysis
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 10:42:07 am »
definitely interesting, thanks for the info. I'd like to see your analysis of single and triple techs too.

there's not enough info like this out there.

Vykan12

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Re: Double Tech Analysis
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 08:43:49 pm »
It seems some of my findings were off, I'll fix the OP later. Anyway, I did a test with every tech in the game against Queen Zeal. My team is lv 34-38, best equipment, and I've only used speed tabs. Here are the results:

Single techs

Crono
Confuse- 1400 damage
Luminaire- 1100 damage

Lucca
Flare- 1300 damage

Marle
Nothing

Frog
Frog squash- 1300 damage

Robo (terra arm)
Uzzi punch- 1000 damage
Shock- 900 damage

Ayla
Dino tail- 1500 damage
Triple kick- 1200 damage

Magus
Dark matter- 1400 damage

Double techs

Good fire techs:

Fire sword 2- 1800 damage (Lucca/Crono)
Antipode 3- 2100 damage, multiple (Lucca/Marle)
Frog flare- 3300 damage, multiple (Lucca/Frog) [Works well with halation]
Doublevbomb- 2500 damage (Lucca/Robo) [Limited range]
Fire whirl- 1800 damage, multiple (Lucca/Ayla)
Blaze kick- 2000 damage (Lucca/Ayla)

Good ice techs:

Ice sword 2- 1800 damage (Marle/Crono)
Cube toss- 1700 damage (Marle/Ayla)

Good physical techs:

Max cyclone- 1600 damage (Crono/Robo) [Limited range]
Falcon hit- 1600 damage (Crono/Ayla) [Hits on a line]
Beast toss- 2700 damage (Robo/Ayla)
Drop kick- 2300 damage (Frog/Ayla)


Triple techs

Delta force- 1500 damage, multiple (Crono/Lucca/Marle)
Arc impulse- 2500 damage (Crono/Marle/Frog)
Final kick- 2400 damage (Crono/Marle/Ayla)
Fire zone- 2100 damage (Crono/Lucca/Robo) [Limited range]
Delta storm- 1400 damage, multiple (Crono/Lucca/Frog)
Gatling kick- 2400 damage (Crono/Lucca/Ayla)
Triple raid- 2000 damage (Crono/Frog/Robo)
Twister- 2300 damage, multiple (Crono/Robo/Ayla)
3D attack- 2700 damage (Crono/Frog/Ayla)
Poyozo dance- 800 damage (Lucca/Marle/Ayla) [white rock required]
Dark eternal- 2800 damage, multiple (Lucca/Marle/Magus) [black rock required]
Omega flare- 3000 damage, multiple (Lucca/Robo/Magus) [blue rock required]
Grand dream -3000 damage, multiple (Marle/Robo/Frog) [gold rock required, low hp required]
Spin strike- 3100 damage (Robo/Frog/Ayla) [silver rock required]

Basically, double and triple techs are mostly obsoleted by ultimate single techs in terms of raw damage output, albeit not by much. For instance, let's say we have Crono/Frog/Ayla. Confuse + Triple kick alone do 2600 damage, and Frog only needs a regular physical hit to outdo the 3D attack. Another thing to consider, some double/triple techs are very MP effective. Twister is a prime example of this, as it only costs a combined 24 MP, or 9 MP if Ayla takes a gold stud.

So, why would anyone want to use double/triple techs lategame? There are 2 very good reasons. First, if you have team members with bad single techs (eg/ Frog, Marle), then double/triple techs will actually produce more damage. For instance, with a team of Crono/Marle/Frog, there isn't much offense outside of Crono's confuse (1400 dmg). By using arc impulse they combine for 2500 damage. Well actually, leap slash + ice 2 would cover the spread. Nonetheless, the triple techs I bolded are competitive/if not better than their 3 single tech counterparts. In particular, triple techs make Magus much more useful.

The second reason, although perhaps more superficial, is that double/triple techs will reduce animation time considerably, and in many cases they're flashier, especially when you're unlikely to be using triple techs much throughout the game.

I'll probably make another post about how to distribute tabs, and my opinion on every team combination.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 09:04:31 pm by Vykan12 »

Vykan12

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Re: Double Tech Analysis
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2011, 12:25:56 am »
Team Ratings

Crono/Lucca/Marle: This is a great team throughout the game. Fire/ice sword and antipode are all powerful, and their later incantations are multi-hit, which is a plus. Healing is covered by aura whirl, and Marle’s haste is a huge boon against bosses. Although not broken, there is nothing to complain about here.

Crono/Lucca/Robo: Not recommended. Aside from heal beam, which only heals for ~200 hp lategame, there is no heal-all tech in this team. Robo isn’t a good fit with this team, as all of his useful double techs are limited by range (max cyclone, doublevbomb). Fire tackle is mediocre, and even their triple tech fire zone suffers from limited range.

Crono/Lucca/Frog: See above. Lucca/Frog is an awful pairing, red pin, line bomb and frog flare are all terrible (well at least frog flare is situational). Crono/Frog isn’t much better, all their double techs are single-target, and only effective midgame. Frog’s heal is the only heal-all they have.

Crono/Lucca/Ayla: As much as I love this team, there’s absolutely no healing this team provides. Ayla’s kiss is single target, and only effective if she’s fed magic tabs. That leaves lapis and megaelixirs for healing, both of which show up pretty late. Offensively, however, this team is a force to be reckoned with. Falcon hit is just cheap, it trivializes the entire ocean palace. Volt bite turns Tyrano and Nizbel into a joke. Then for random battles Lucca/Ayla firewhirl will usually clear out maps at a respectable 18 MP cost, and can be learned as early as Mt. Woe without grinding.

Crono/Marle/Robo: Too defensively minded. Aside from ice sword, and later confuse/luminaire/uzzi punch, there’s not much going on offensively. Healing-wise, this is probably the best team in the game. Aura whirl, aura beam, cure touch, heal beam, all multi-target. But, most importantly, lifeline makes this team invincible come lategame.

Crono/Marle/Frog: This is a pretty good team to have in Magus’ castle because icewater is one of the earliest target-all techs you get. Once level 2 spells show up, this team learns arc impulse, one of the strongest and MP cost effective triple techs in the game. Healing is thoroughly covered with aura whirl/heal/double cure. Pretty good bosskilling team, especially with haste in the mix.

Crono/Marle/Ayla: One of my favorite teams, and highly recommended, especially for bosses. Marle/Ayla have the surprisingly effective and (somewhat) multi-target cube toss. Crono/Ayla is obviously h3x. Crono/Marle brings aura whirl (healing) and ice sword (offence). They have a decent triple tech in final kick. But most importantly, against bosses Marle can haste the team while Ayla charms some useful equipment, and double charm increases the steal rate.

Crono/Robo/Frog: Meh. Healing is covered, but their double/triple techs all suck.

Crono/Robo/Ayla: It’s unfortunate that Robo/Ayla don’t have a healing double tech, because otherwise this is an amazing team. Twister only costs 15 MP, is learnt quickly (tailspin can be acquired around Mt. Woe), and multi-targets for more damage than Lucca/Ayla’s fire whirl, which is overpowering to say the least. Robo/Ayla’s beast toss is incredibly useful against heavier monsters, bosses included (ever tried tossing Mega Mutant?). Crono/Ayla have falcon hit. In fact, even a barrage of single techs from this team is painful (confuse/uzzi punch/triple kick). What’s not to love?

Crono/Frog/Ayla: Solid team, but only lategame. Slurp kiss can be made into an effective heal-all by feeding Ayla magic tabs. Most of the offensive power of this team shows up once ultimate techs are learned, as both Drop kick and 3D attack require triple kick to be learned. Otherwise, there’s not much happening outside of falcon hit. Swordstream, spire and bubble hit are all single-target, and become ineffective as the game goes on.

Lucca/Marle/Robo: Lame. Robo’s fire/ice tackle sucks lategame and doublevbomb is range limited. Marle/Robo can cover healing, and antipode/flare can carry the offensive load, but otherwise this team isn’t that special.

Lucca/Marle/Frog: This is a truly terrible team. Aside from Marle/Frog healing, lucca flare and antipod, this team has absolutely nothing going for them. Red pin, line bomb, frog flare, glacier, these all suck.

Lucca/Marle/Ayla: Very similar to Crono/Lucca/Ayla. No healing to speak of, but have an offensive explosion in flare/antipod/fire whirl/cube toss/triple kick/haste.

Lucca/Robo/Frog: No, just no. This team defines double tech failure. Fire tackle, doublevbomb, line bomb, frog flare, blade toss, bubble snap, all of these are awful for their own set of reasons. No triple tech either. Prepare to do a lot of flare/uzzi punching if you want to win with this team.

Lucca/Robo/Ayla: Not a good choice. Robo’s heal beam is the only healing option this team has. Otherwise, solid offence through fire whirl/beast toss/flare/triple kick/uzzi punch.

Lucca/Frog/Ayla: Much better than above if you power up slurp kiss. Replace beast toss with drop kick, which is arguably better.

Marle/Robo/Frog: You’ll never die with a team made entirely out of healers, though they still lack lifeline for being the best in that department. Offensively, this is probably the worst team in the game. Crisis arm + uzzi punch if the only powerful attack they have. Shock too if you load Robo with magic tabs I guess.

Marle/Robo/Ayla: Decent, but they lack a good multi-target attack (unless you count shock). Beast toss, cube toss (sort of), uzzi punch, triple kick, they’re all single-target.

Marle/Frog/Ayla: See above, but remove uzzi punch and replace beast toss with drop kick.

Robo/Frog/Ayla: Probably the biggest surprise of the bunch. This is the perfect team for defeating Queen Zeal: triple kick, drop kick, uzzi punch and most importantly spin strike mean you’re easily doing 1400-3100+ single-target damage. Ayla can steal a prism dress + prism helm through charm. And healing is covered by slurp kiss/cure wave.  

I’m not going to bother with most of Magus’ possible teams, because unless you to accompany him with 2 characters that have a heal-all double tech, the team is destined to suck. He also has no bearing on double-techs, which makes the decision process highly intuitive. I will, however, cover Magus’ triple tech teams because they are worth using.

Magus/Lucca/Marle: Dark eternal is obviously quite powerful (2800+ damage), but there’s no multi-healing going on.

Magus/Lucca/Robo: Omega flare is 2nd only to spin strike in raw damage output, and easily breaks the 3000 damage barrier. Lucca/Robo double techs are pretty worthless, and Robo’s heal beam has to be powered up with magic tabs if you want this team to survive without elixirs. Good choice for overpowering bosses before they even have a chance to wipe out your team.

Whoo, that was exhausting. So, with every possible team covered, I’ll select some of my favorites.

Crono/Lucca/Marle
Crono/Marle/Frog
Crono/Marle/Ayla
Robo/Frog/Ayla

Now, my opinion on individual characters:

Crono: He’s phenomenal, that should come as no surprise. Cyclone and fire whirl are the best solutions to all your offensive problems for a good third of the game. He has amazing double techs with every unit in the cast except Robo and Frog, even then max cyclone is quite useful early on. Almost every triple tech in the game involves him. He’s locked to your team, so he gains exp and TP faster than anyone else unless you deliberately KO him. His single tech list is a sight to behold. Cyclone, slash, spincut, lightning 2, confuse, and luminaire are all tremendously useful as you progress through the game. He’s fast, his stats are well rounded, he physically hits hard, and he boasts some of the best equipment in the game, particularly the rainbow sword, with its overpowering Mt and ridiculous 70% critical hit rate. My only complaint is that he is given a useless life spell.

Lucca: I used to think she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. My last playthrough has changed my mind a little. She’s undoubtedly an offensive powerhouse. Fire whirl is invaluable earlygame, as mentioned above. Then, once you learn magic she can do no wrong in the world of double techs. Fire sword, fire whirl (with Ayla), antipod, even fire tackle (at midgame) are all deliciously damaging. The problem is, Lucca is SLOW, it’s only when the taban suit shows up that this problem properly gets addressed, though she still needs a speed belt/dash ring anyway to keep up. But beyond that, when her and Crono are on the team, healing is largely stifled. Marle works thanks to aura whirl, but Robo and Frog have to use their own heal-all tech, which doesn’t usually heal sufficiently, and they may not even know yet, depending on where you are in the game.

Marle: My opinion of her has increased tremendously since my last playthrough. While most of her double techs and lack of a decent ultimate spell (lol ice2) hurt her offence considerably, she is amazing against bosses simply because of haste. And, with the right team pairings, she WILL have solid offensive output. Pair her with Crono, Lucca or Ayla and you get ice sword, antipod and cube toss, all of which are powerful and multi-target (eventually). Life 2 is also more useful than I gave it credit for, it allows you to be much sloppier with your healing without paying the consequences. She’s also part of many powerhouse triple techs.

Robo: I want to like Robo, but I find he’s not that great. Laser spin is useful, but for a very short period of time. Most of his double techs are single-target, and become obsolete by lategame (ice tackle, fire tackle, bubble snap). When his double techs are multi-target, they tend to have very limited range (max cyclone, doublevbomb). Shock is the weakest ultimate spell in the game. Really, the only saving grace he has is healing and uzzi punch. That, and a lot of tab potential. Crisis arm is hard to make useful since Robo’s hp will always end with a 5 until he maxes his hp when his level hits the mid 50s.

Frog: In my opinion, he’s easily the worst character in the game. His single tech list leaves much to be desired… Frog squash is terrible, cure 2 is unnecessary, water 2 is learned too late to be of much use, and the rest of his techs are obsolete when he rejoins Crono for the Magus takedown. That leaves him with heal and leap slash as useful single techs, and leap slash is easily obsoleted by confuse, uzzi punch and triple kick come lategame. His double techs are among the worst in the game. Swordstream, spire, glacier, line bomb, bubble hit, bubble snap, these are all single-hit, obsoleted double techs, and some are so bad that they aren’t even worthwhile when first learned. His only redeemable quality is that he heals, and later on he learns drop kick and spin strike. Oh, and ice water for Magus’ castle.

Ayla: Arguably the very best character in the game, if not a close second to Crono. You basically cannot form a bad team that includes her. She physically outdamages Crono with regular attacks until the overpowered rainbow sword shows up. She has the highest critical rating in the game. She’s monumental in defeating those Mt. Woe volcanoe enemies that give you 100 tech points. Charm basically breaks the game, making megaelixirs, gold studs and numerous tabs a basic commodity in the black omen, not to make light of what you can steal before that (ruby armor, anyone?). She’s the prime candidate for both power and magic tabs because her attack multipliers are astronomical. She’s faster than Crono. And, last but not least, her double/triple tech list is droolworthy. Fire whirl, twister, falcon hit, volt bite, cube toss, beast toss, drop kick, these are all double techs that stand above the rest in one way or another. She’s implicated in 5 triple techs, and aside from poyozo dance, these are dishing out 2400-3100+ damage. Even her single techs can do no wrong. Rock throw, charm, tail spin, and triple kick are all incredibly useful, and her dino tail actually dishes out more damage than frog squash. And, unlike Crono, she can even heal, even if it’s single-target.

Magus: Sorry Magus, you might be a total bad*** with an amazing story, but when it comes to gameplay, you’re not that spectacular. First off, he has to learn all of his single techs at a point where everyone else already has, which is highly aggravating. While fire 2 trivializes the death peak and makes light of Frog’s sidequest, there’s not much else going for him. He learns magic wall at a point where you’re swarming with barriers. Dark bomb is single-target, and ineffective this late in the game. Dark mist is like water 2 with shadow elemental, in other words it’s not doing much damage. Black hole is cool, but way too inconsistent and range-limited. It’s only when he learns dark matter that things pick up for him. But even then, a disproportionately high amount of enemies are shadow-absorbent. I will grant him this: his triple techs are amazing, dishing out 2800-3100 damage to multiple targets, which will clear almost any random group of enemies that aren’t shadow resistant. Statistically, he’s a cut above the team, being a beautiful combination of physically powerful, agile, and tanky. His mag def is especially noteworthy. Also, the doomsickle makes it easy for him to solo bosses since he does 3x physical damage when the remaining party members are slain.

xcalibur

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2011, 02:09:02 am »
not bad at all. I use crono/marle/frog for battling ocean palace lavos. they're not perfect, but they're a pretty strong team.

to be fair, frog squash actually is a pretty effective ultimate single tech. the lower frogs HP, the more damage it does. if HP is fairly low, it can do 2000+ damage on a target. and even at half HP its dealing between 1000-2000, though I haven't checked thoroughly. its powerful, just with a weird mechanic to balance it.

personally, I'd like to see technical stats on all the techs, with multipliers and values, even for monster techs. I admit that'd be a tall order, but it would be interesting.

Manly Man

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 02:44:23 am »
I've mentioned this before, but my own most powerful team is Crono, Ayla and Magus. Crono makes any team amazing, just as Ayla, but the reason I use Magus is more that he's a very good utility character. He's got the highest Magic Attack stat in the entire game, has all of the primary Level Two spells, and even with all of the various Shadow-resistant monsters, he's still powerful enough magically to still break through these monsters, making resistances not but trifling matters. I actually had a much easier time fighting Retinite with Magus instead of Marle, as he was just able to do her job faster, and was far tougher to wear down. Even though his physical attack is nothing special, it's still far better, not to mention more reliable, than most of the others who were made to be magic-centered. This team is also the fastest bunch, which makes everything much more bearable when getting in those few quick attacks before the bosses can make their moves. Given, the lack of healing is a bit of a problem, but by the time you get Magus, finances are nothing to worry about, and very decent healing items are readily available. The speed at which he can deliver these also makes him great for item-based teams; when I first played Chrono Trigger, he saved my ass countless times against Mother Brain and her damned attack-all spell, pumping out a Lapis whenever needed while Crono smashed right through everything else. He made the battle stable, and is just as useful in the battle with Queen Zeal, able to dole out Elixirs and Megaelixirs when needed.

Apart from that particular combination of characters, I don't use him much. He's something like Crono, but a little backwards. He's undoubtedly useful, but only in very specific groups, which is a bit of a turn-off for me when I'm looking for different combos to experiment with for more efficient groups.

Also, as for your opinion on Marle, I agree with everything. If only they'd given her Starburst- it's even referred to when Queen Zeal uses it as the most powerful Water attack- she'd be downright indispensable in pretty much any situation. But, alas, it's only just a pipe dream.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 02:47:59 am by Manly Man »

xcalibur

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 03:48:41 am »
indeed, Manly Man. if you removed Provoke and added Starburst (don't you mean Hexagon Mist?), Marle would be great. as it is, she's great as a complimentary character. ice-2 as the strongest offensive spell is definitely a drawback. eta: I always thought that there was a conspicuous lack of an ultimate water spell.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 04:17:39 am by xcalibur »

Manly Man

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 12:16:51 pm »
Yes, but the one I remembered it from is the DS, in which it's called "Starburst." At least we can both recognize what in the world we're talking about.

Katie Skyye

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 02:46:59 pm »
Quote from: Vykan12
Fire whirl: Probably the most broken technique in the game. Hits every enemy on-screen, increases Lucca’s fire 2 damage 50%, and most importantly has an absolutely ridiculous multiplier attached to Ayla’s damage output. It’s 24.7*(lvl+mag), the 24.7 multiplier is even larger than Crono’s luminaire (20.5). If anyone were worthy of magic tabs, it would be Ayla.

O_________________________O

Well, I knew she was good, but holy crap!

xcalibur

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2011, 09:03:13 pm »
Yes, but the one I remembered it from is the DS, in which it's called "Starburst." At least we can both recognize what in the world we're talking about.

yep, I saw that when I checked the encyclopedia.

with that said, I'm now level **!

also, it took me a minute to realize that the item on the left is the Time Egg. for future reference, the Level ** avatar is of the time egg, gate key, and pendant.

replying here to maintain it:


I’m only saying it’s a bad ultimate tech because it’s highly situational. He has to risk probable death just to match Crono/Lucca/Magus’ ultimate tech damage. Every time you use a megaelixir or heal multiple party members, he loses his frog squash damage until an enemy hopefully damages him sufficiently. Given these limitations I’d say even shock is better, despite probably doing less damage.

I agree. But I wouldn't call it terrible, just limited.

I've gotten some use out of it doing inner lavos runs with crono/marle/frog. double cure (complete party heal) and haste are highly valuable. The teams attacks are very single target oriented, with luminaire and frog squash being the only real exceptions.  still, arc impulse is a great triple tech. leap slash is alright even against lavos, but clearly outclassed by other single physical techs as you pointed out. (I use confuse and leapslash to take out the left bit)

I sometimes load up a savestate and take on lavos at level 50 to keep myself sharp. I should do more team experimenting.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:22:18 am by xcalibur »

Vykan12

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 05:35:04 am »
Quote
to be fair, frog squash actually is a pretty effective ultimate single tech. the lower frogs HP, the more damage it does. if HP is fairly low, it can do 2000+ damage on a target. and even at half HP its dealing between 1000-2000, though I haven't checked thoroughly. its powerful, just with a weird mechanic to balance it.

I’m only saying it’s a bad ultimate tech because it’s highly situational. He has to risk probable death just to match Crono/Lucca/Magus’ ultimate tech damage. Every time you use a megaelixir or heal multiple party members, he loses his frog squash damage until an enemy hopefully damages him sufficiently. Given these limitations I’d say even shock is better, despite probably doing less damage.

Quote
and even with all of the various Shadow-resistant monsters, he's still powerful enough magically to still break through these monsters, making resistances not but trifling matters.

My problem with him is more that there are a lot of enemies that absorb shadow attacks, so it doesn’t matter how supercharged his offence is. In the black omen alone, dark matter will do double digit damage to snake enemies, and will be absorbed by the yellow gargoyle dudes. Similar deal in cat’s claw, the big monkey and green dragon dudes give him a really hard time.

Quote
Even though his physical attack is nothing special, it's still far better, not to mention more reliable, than most of the others who were made to be magic-centered.

I’ve never found a point beyond where magic is learned where I’ve ever wanted Frog, Marle or Margus to use a normal physical attack, but maybe that’s just me. I have a playstyle where I basically use techs at every opportunity I get, and it’s feasible because the game drowns you in ethers.

Quote
when I first played Chrono Trigger, he saved my ass countless times against Mother Brain and her damned attack-all spell, pumping out a Lapis whenever needed while Crono smashed right through everything else. He made the battle stable, and is just as useful in the battle with Queen Zeal, able to dole out Elixirs and Megaelixirs when needed.

It’s kind of weird you’re hyping Magus’ ability to use items, a trait every character possesses :p You said you like Crono + Ayla on your team, if you put Frog as a 3rd member, you’d have an equally fast character for item spamming, but at the same time Frog has heal, and more importantly Frog and Ayla have slurp kiss, which heals for about 300-400 hp without giving either units magic tabs. Frog can also beat Magus’ physical damage thanks to leap slash, not to mention final kick with Ayla. Admittedly dark matter > frog squash, though dark matter likely isn’t learned until the black omen unless you grind in one of the sidequest dungeons. My point being, I'd put a healer in the 3rd slot over Magus any day, though that only really matters if you restrict yourself against using lapis/megaelixirs. :shock:

IMO Magus’ main appeal is that he can trivialize death peak, Frog’s sidequest and maybe a few other sidequest dungeons with his magic 2 spells. Once those stop being capable of 1HKOing groups of enemies, he goes through a very tough period until dark matter is learned.

Manly Man

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 02:22:12 pm »
The reason why I was emphasizing that is because the main reason anyone wins the later battles is because their speed is great. And, in my experience, Magus has only been outpaced by Crono and Ayla. It could probably depend on how one plays the game that you get different results, but meh. But, as I said, I only use Magus with Crono and Ayla, as it's a team based off of speed more than anything else. He doesn't seem to work very well with the other teammates, at least for me.

Vykan12

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 10:24:21 am »
If speed is the only factor you're concerned about, speed tabs + the dash ring go a long way :) Even Lucca can max out her speed this way (though she might need the taban suit for +3 spd). But yeah, I'll definitely agree that Magus' base speed of 12 (4 from maxing out) is a great boon.

I updated the OP a bit, I had some misinformation on certain techs like antipod and blade toss that I fixed up. Depending on how ambitious I feel, I might take a crack at determining the multipliers involved in triple techs.

Vykan12

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 12:43:04 pm »
Decided to test every tech in the game against Queen Zeal using both an LLG team and a lv 99 team for 2 reasons: First, to test out my theorycraft findings in the first post, and also to see how leveling affects damage output.

LEVEL 99 TEAM

Single techs

Crono

Cyclone: 650
Slash: 600
Lightning: 700
Spincut: 1000
Lightning 2: 800
Confuse: 1200
Luminaire: 3000

Lucca

Flame toss: 500
Fire: 900
Napalm: 1000
Fire 2: 1100
Mega bomb: 2600
Flare: 3400

Marle

Ice: 900
Ice 2: 1100

Robo

Rocket punch: 600
Laser spin: 600
Robo tackle: 1900
Uzzi punch: 1300
Area bomb: 1900
Shock: 2500

Frog

Slurp cut: 700
Water: 700
Leap slash: 1100
Water 2: 900
Frog squash: 3500

Ayla

Rollo kick: 1300
Cat attack: 1800
Rock throw: 2700
Tail spin: 2100
Dino tail: 3300
Triple kick: 3300

Magus

Lightning 2: 1200
Ice 2: 1200
Fire 2: 1200
Dark bomb: 1700
Dark mist: 1700
Dark matter: 2500

Double techs

Crono/Lucca

Fire whirl: 1100
Fire sword: 2400
Fire sword 2: 3000

Crono/Marle

Ice sword: 2400
Ice sword 2: 3000

Crono/Robo

Rocket roll: 1000
Max cyclone: 2100
Super volt: 4200

Crono/Frog

X strike: 1700
Swordstream: 2200
Spire: 2800

Crono/Ayla

Drill kick: 2200
Volt bite: 3600
Falcon hit: 2100

Lucca/Marle

Antipod: 1800
Antipod 2: 3400
Antipod 3: 5700

Lucca/Robo

Fire punch: 1500
Fire tackle: 4500
Doublevbomb: 6700

Lucca/Frog

Red pin: 2500
Line bomb: 2600
Frog flare: 8700

Lucca/Ayla

Flame kick: 2700
Fire whirl: 4900
Blaze kick: 5600

Marle/Robo

Ice tackle: 4200

Marle/Frog

Ice water: 1600
Glacier: 3000

Marle/Ayla

Ice toss: 3600
Cube toss: 4800

Robo/Frog

Blade toss: 1400
Bubble snap: 3800

Robo/Ayla

Spin kick: 2500
Beast toss: 5000

Triple techs

Crono/Lucca/Marle
Delta force: 3900

Crono/Lucca/Robo
Fire zone: 3500

Crono/Lucca/Frog
Delta storm: 2700

Crono/Lucca/Ayla
Gatling kick: 6600

Crono/Marle/Frog
Arc impulse: 4100

Crono/Marle/Ayla
Final kick: 6600

Crono/Robo/Frog
Triple raid: 4000

Crono/Robo/Ayla
Twister: 5100

Crono/Frog/Ayla
3D attack: 5800

No Crono + requires a special rock

Lucca/Marle/Ayla
Poyozo dance: 2100

Lucca/Marle/Magus
Dark eternal: 6700

Lucca/Robo/Magus
Omega flare: 7600

Marle/Robo/Frog
Grand dream: 8614 (low hp required)

Robo/Frog/Ayla
Spin strike: 4500

Some of this is a bit surprising to me. Antipod 3, super volt and doublevbomb did way more damage than I expected. Fire/ice tackle too. Finally, I was surprised that spin strike damage barely improved, which probably means it's calculated independent of unit levels. Low level team results coming soon.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:42:44 pm by Vykan12 »

alfadorredux

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Re: Character Ratings and Thorough Tech Analysis
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 02:28:11 pm »
I assume that not including Magus' single techs in that list was a mistake rather than a subtle dig at Magus fans.