Author Topic: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist  (Read 4223 times)

FouCapitan

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Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« on: January 20, 2009, 02:56:02 am »
Time Traveller's Immunity states that travellers through time are immune to actions that would alter their own existences.  This has constantly been a theory used to explain why instances where the Chrono crew's lives depended on their own actions in the past, they would remain unaffected by their lack of action or progress.

This theory has been clashed by one major plot point in the game, Marle's disappearance from the timeline in 600 A.D., referred to as the "Marle Paradox."

Two items that support TTI, are Magus' interventions in his own past, and Melchior's unaltered future during Magus' interventions, and meeting the Chrono crew.

To explain the latter, minus TTI, I put it that the changes made in history by Magus and the others did in fact change Melchior in the present, however at no point in the meddling done was his position there neutralized.

This is because the nature of Melchior and the other Guru's travel from 12,000 BC to their respective time periods was not in relation to their proximity to Lavos.

The Entity began affecting time in an effort to protect itself (The Planet) from destruction at the hands of Lavos.  Naturally this would require it to protect the lives of those who would play an integral part in achieving this goal.  The gurus each played such a role, thus it was the Entity, not Lavos, who originally and still in the altered timeline sent them through time at the moment of Zeal's destruction.  This is supported by the statement that the Earthbound ones saw Melchior and Janus pulled into black portals after the Ocean Palace incident (The same black portals found during Magus' flashback to Ocean Palace).  When Melchior was imprisoned on Mt. Woe, I theorize that the Entity still pulled him from his prison through time, to preserve this same outcome, regardless if Crono and the rest rescued him or not.

As to why Melchior never makes mention of recognizing Crono and the others, I believe this is because he realized upon seeing Crono in the Millennial Fair that he too was sent through time, and felt that he may play an important role in time.  With this knowledge, rather than react to Crono with recognition, he feigned ignorance and behaved as if he were meeting him for the first time, in order to preserve the newly forged past he found himself with.

Explaining Magus' past being affected by his own actions is a different story.  While the actions he took would indeed change his current self, the memories of the lost timeline destroyed by his actions remained.  This would actually carry support for Zeality's theory of lost memories not dissappearing into the Darkness Beyond Time entirely, but rather channelling into the most similar incarnation of that memory, or dreams as he put it.  Link Here.

This would explain how Magus could still recall the original history of the Ocean Palace incident, and recite it for the Chrono crew.  As with Melchior, his own existence (Janus' future) was never altered during his meddling, as the Entity was always ready to ensure his time travel at the moment of Lavos' emergence.

Any arguments to this?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 03:03:34 am by FouCapitan »

utunnels

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 03:03:32 am »
And the Frog ending, if I recall, Marle did croak at that ending.
Although it is mostly a joke, but just like other paradoxes, if the developer take TTI as a basic rule, they shouldn't make such mistakes.

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 03:06:42 am »
And the Frog ending, if I recall, Marle did croak at that ending.
Although it is mostly a joke, but just like other paradoxes, if the developer take TTI as a basic rule, they shouldn't make such mistakes.

I don't take most of the endings as canonical possibilities, but another example would be that Crono and the rest change into reptites in ending 10.  They certainly were not immune to TTI, but the memories of their adventures perhaps remained (Again supporting the idea of merging dreams of lost timelines.)

Vehek

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 03:08:10 am »
Ending 10 depicts the first day of the Millennial Fair, so that would be before the time travels.

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 03:08:43 am »
Ending 10 depicts the first day of the Millennial Fair, so that would be before the time travels.
Right, that's why I said "perhaps"

utunnels

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 03:09:16 am »
Well, IMO, TTI exits, sometimes. :lol:
It just not that serious, if they want, they do it...

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 03:11:38 am »
Well, IMO, TTI exits, sometimes. :lol:
It just not that serious, if they want, they do it...

A bit more than that.  I'd like specific instances where TTI is believed to be in effect, to explain how it may not be in effect after all.

Vehek

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 03:12:03 am »
I admit that in ending 10, there's a Reptite Melchior...

One of the reasons why we have the TTI is all the problems that result from Crono and co. visiting a saved future instead of a ruined future.

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 03:26:02 am »
I admit that in ending 10, there's a Reptite Melchior...

One of the reasons why we have the TTI is all the problems that result from Crono and co. visiting a saved future instead of a ruined future.
Now there's a good one to wrap my brain around.  There's no way around them saving the future while not affecting their own past through time travel.

Perhaps the best explanation of that would be the fact that while the ending cut off part of the journey, it didn't cut off the beginning.

After puzzling over it I can only come up with one solution.  Crono never visited a saved future, his past in time travel remains as a serperate history, one that didn't flow in the normal direction of timelines.  While it intersected with a timeline that eventually faded from existence into the DBT, that did not eliminate it from happening.  The reason is that Crono and the others did not originate from faded timelines, but rather just travelled through them.  Marle's disappearance was caused because the faded timeline was her origin, not just one she travelled through.



chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 03:30:58 am »
Well, I have said it before and I will say it again: you cannot write a time travel story without paradoxes without intentionally or unintentionally including something that is akin to Time Travellers Immunity and Time Bastard. Go ahead, try to do it. You will fail. Try to write a simple scenario in which a time traveller travels to the past and the future is sent to the DBT (as per Chrono mechanics), then send that traveller on multiple journeys across time and account for all of the paradoxes. Now try to explain them away without a system similar to TTI and TB.

As far as Marle's Paradox goes, check out Eske's thread. Great progress has been made there and the current analysis is far superior to the Compendiums and it doesn't refute TB or TTI - it's more of a modification of it.

No doubt in any story there will be exceptions to general fan theories. However, in the Chrono series, what TTI both explains and predicts far, far outnumbers the exceptions to it. It is a solid theory I say.

One of the triumphs of TTI is that it actually predicts that the El Nido Archepelago would still exist at the ending of Chrono Cross despite the fact that Chronopolis and FATE probably no longer exist.

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 03:39:56 am »
As far as Marle's Paradox goes, check out Eske's thread. Great progress has been made there and the current analysis is far superior to the Compendiums and it doesn't refute TB or TTI - it's more of a modification of it.
A modification I may accept.  I'll have to check it out.

I did like Zeality's idea on what happens to dreams (Or in my version, memories) from lost timelines, and it does explain a bit of what happens in Chrono Trigger without resorting to the easy solution of "They don't affect themselves"

This thread is basically refuting the idea of Time Traveller's Immunity in that sense.

Eske

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 03:41:21 am »
Possible - looking at the game, TTI only protects memories, not ones body, from the changes of time.  Even when Marle is shunted to the DBT, her mind remains active and she can "feel out" her experiences there.  The Leene and Dino Age endings show the same thing.  Even though they are "jokes", we can learn from them the time travel logic of some of game's creators.  To ignore that in favor of fan theory is probably a poor decision. (IMO)

Using the logic from those endings, if changing the past made Crono somehow get a new scar at the age of 8, the scar will appear on his teenage body - though he will have no memory of why it is there.   

If you wrap this in with PTime, another theory, it predicts when the changes will affect you.

The only issue, and big supporter of TTI, is that Marle does not vanish when Ayla leaves the timeline, despite being her descendant.    Then again, Leene was about to be killed and Ayla was time travelling - perhaps there is a difference.

And yea, there is the stuff in the Marle Paradox thread meant to "assist" TTI and TB in explaining what happened - PTime (with its mad prediction skillz) in another thread really sealed the deal for that in my opinion, so I'm happy with it. 
But your idea is based up game observation with highlighted events - my favorite - and I'm always open to new ideas.

FouCapitan

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 03:57:20 am »
The only issue, and big supporter of TTI, is that Marle does not vanish when Ayla leaves the timeline, despite being her descendant.    Then again, Leene was about to be killed and Ayla was time travelling - perhaps there is a difference.

And yea, there is the stuff in the Marle Paradox thread meant to "assist" TTI and TB in explaining what happened - PTime (with its mad prediction skillz) in another thread really sealed the deal for that in my opinion, so I'm happy with it. 
But your idea is based up game observation with highlighted events - my favorite - and I'm always open to new ideas.
Skimming through that theory (Almost impossible to "skim" it with the great detail within it) and I do see how PTime could work with both TTI and anti-TTI.  Integrating PTime with my theory Marle (Along with all other decendants of Ayla) would not cease to exist until the probability of Ayla's return to 65m BC fell below the requirements for it to be a Primary Universe.  The only difference in this situation between my theory and TTI using PTime would be that in TTI the world would change, but not the heroes, while in my theory all would change at that precise moment.

For better or worse, this never seemed to be put to the test in the course of the game (Except the Reptite ending)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 03:58:51 am by FouCapitan »

placidchap

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 09:16:32 am »
A limiting factor would seem to be from Cross, when it is explained that when a change occurs on a timeline, the unchanged timeline goes to the DBT.  Maybe finding a suitable definition for the DBT would help with the theories around this area?

I've preferred to think of these timelines as not destroyed, as this shunted business would seem to indicate, but merely put in some form of stasis, within the DBT, as seen in those floating orbs during the TD fight.  No memories are lost, nothing is destroyed, but is remembered.  As the past is changed, the DBT acts as a kind of switch board, first collecting "dead" timelines and then if actions occur that allow for some or all of a previously "dead" timeline to recur, then it is hotswapped with some or all of the current timeline.  Eventually some changes are made where the DBT is forced to allow two Magus persons to appear or to hold someone temporarily in stasis (Marle paradox).  Of course, I just thought this up as I typed, so it could easily conflict with existing evidence proving otherwise.

Another idea, similar to what I just mentioned, is that so many changes take place, that some timelines start to coexist and meld together...fabric of space and time starts to collapse until it is somehow fixed...now that would be a preferred plot for Chrono 3.

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 02:32:41 pm »
I think many of the theories on the Compendium need to be completely revised. All of the discussions occurring here recently have shed a lot of light on some things.

For example, we now have Dimensional Bastard and Dimensional Travellers Immunity, PTime as a good model of the Chronoverse, exceptions to TTI and TB after the dimensional reunification in Cross, a concise ending theory for Cross based on this, and an alternate explanation for the Marle paradox that fits with all of the aforementioned theories.

So TTI is fair game. I think it is too solid to say it "doesn't exist", but it is fair to question whether it exists in the same way that the Compendium envisions it. I like Zeality's idea that only the physical structure of the universe is sent to the DBT, while the "consciousnesses" or "dreams" of individuals living in that timeline are sent to the most similar incarnations of themselves within the new timeline. This would seem to be a less cruel nature of the Chronoverse. But if this were true, we would need to support it somehow. We just can't assume something based on no evidence. And we would have to figure out how this fits in with Marle's situation.